Help me pick between two DSLRs

[Agentbolt]

So I've been convinced to just man up and buy a DSLR for a road trip I'm taking. It's going to be a cross-country bike trip. I've done some perusing on the 'net and the two option in my price range (less than 500) appear to be:

Canon Rebel XS or Pentax K2000. The XS appears to lack in-body image stablization, which I guess limits what lenses I can get for it. The K2000 looks like it doesn't come with an integrated flash, from the pictures it looks like you have to lug around that huge external one.

Anyone with experience with either one want to chime in?

 

[jpeyton]

http://a.img-dpreview.com/revi...2000/images/flash2.jpg

 

[kyzen]

I have both the XSi and the K2000 sitting on my desk right now. Not exactly the comparison that you're looking for, but close.

Between the two, I prefer using the XSi. The controls are a bit more intuitive to me, the screen is bigger (though I think the XS's screen is the same as the K2000), and I prefer the XSi's Li-on battery to the K2000's 4 AA's. Additionally, there seems to be a much wider selection of new lenses for Canon cameras... though, that said, I have had a lot of fun buying old Pentax film SLR's off eBay, giving the bodies away, but keeping the old school manual lenses. $15 for a manual prime lens that's older than me isn't too bad

No, the XSi doesn't have in-body lens stabilization, though there's plenty of people who will tell you in-lens is better than in-body. I think both methods are fine, so whatever.

Oh, and the K2000 DOES have an integrated flash; the button to activate it is on the back left of the body, just above the LCD.

Between the two, I'd suggest Canon - but if you do opt to go Pentax, you won't be disappointed.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Or, C: buy used gear.

For example Rebel XS with an 18-55 IS lens $460, or Canon 20D (although no integrated flash), or Basically everything you need (and more) for $650, or Canon G10 with extras for $550 shipped.

I don't know how critical a DSLR is, but I'd look into the G9/G10. If you *need* a DSLR, I'd look to buy used. If you're against used, I'd go with Canon over Pentax. More widely available and a ton of lenses. You may want to look into Nikon as well.

 

[magomago]

K2000 over XS. I've played with the XS before and it feels like way too plastic in my hand. K2000 has an integrated flash. XSi and I'd have to reconsider...but for the cost of an XSi you have some other options as well.

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Or, C: buy used gear.

For example Rebel XS with an 18-55 IS lens $460, or Canon 20D (although no integrated flash), or Basically everything you need (and more) for $650, or Canon G10 with extras for $550 shipped.

I don't know how critical a DSLR is, but I'd look into the G9/G10. If you *need* a DSLR, I'd look to buy used. If you're against used, I'd go with Canon over Pentax. More widely available and a ton of lenses. You may want to look into Nikon as well.

Honestly sir, unless its about size, I have no idea wtf you are thinking suggesting a G10 over a DSLR. Give me an old used XT with a 18-55 kit lens over a G10. a 1/1.7" sensor will not stack up to APS no matter how you want to cut it.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
Or, C: buy used gear.

For example Rebel XS with an 18-55 IS lens $460, or Canon 20D (although no integrated flash), or Basically everything you need (and more) for $650, or Canon G10 with extras for $550 shipped.

I don't know how critical a DSLR is, but I'd look into the G9/G10. If you *need* a DSLR, I'd look to buy used. If you're against used, I'd go with Canon over Pentax. More widely available and a ton of lenses. You may want to look into Nikon as well.

The 20D has an integrated flash. every canon does in the rebel and xxD line.

 

[Agentbolt]

Oh I'm going used. The XS and the K2000 I was looking at both are refurbished, anyway.

 

[kyzen]

Originally posted by: magomago
I've played with the XS before and it feels like way too plastic in my hand.

This is actually true even in comparison to the XSi; my K2000 feels rather solid when compared to the lightweight plastic of the XSi.

 

[aphex]

i've been looking at these myself lately and while i'm leaning canon, the pentax seems nice as well. The only think holding me back from the pentax is the higher noise across the iso range compared to canon.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: aphex
i've been looking at these myself lately and while i'm leaning canon, the pentax seems nice as well. The only think holding me back from the pentax is the higher noise across the iso range compared to canon.

Not realy:

http://www.digitalcamerainfo.c...Review-20431/Noise.htm

Shows them all essentially being within one another. Only Oly spikes up higher, no doubt due to the smaller 4/3 design.
http://images.digitalcamerainf...K2000-noise-scores.gif

Although I'll say the review isn't without problems...test imagines should have been shot with the same exposure in M mode.

But honestly, noise isn't horrible though. I have the K100D and the noise appears more like grain - I shoot ISO1600 all the time and don't have a major issue with it (although I do lust how much nicer it looks on the K-20/K-7).
At ISO3200 you get that ugly 'noise', but iso3200 is more like 'oh shit mode' for me.

 

[aphex]

I was going by the dpreview review of the k2000

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk2000/page17.asp

Have you come across (or taken) any long exposure night shots with the k2000? I'm curious to see how they compare to my old d80.

 

[arrfep]

Argh. Friggin long response written and the internets ate it. Anyway, here are my recommendations which respectfully deviate from all the other ones so far:

Pentax K10D, $399. It's a couple generations old, but still a very capable camera. In-body image-stabilization and a fully weather-sealed body. This will come in handy on the road. Pick up a kit lens for under $100, or if you can stretch it more (I know everyone keeps suggesting that) you can get the new weather-sealed kit lens for ~$190 (only shopped for it briefly) which will give you a completely sealed system. If you use one of those 10% off coupons at Best Buy, you could get your total cost to around $550.

Alternately, and probably a better idea, now that I think about it, grab the Pentax K200D, $379. It's essentially the sensor from the K10D, moved down into Pentax's entry-level line. But it's also a generation newer, and probably a little easier to use. Side benefits are it being a quarter-pound lighter, and it also takes AA batteries, which could be invaluable if you are away from a place to charge for a couple days in a row. At $20 cheaper than the K10D, you can get much closer to your budget for your final kit.

If you want to go Canon, I'd pick up an Xti, $349. It's cheaper than any other Canon right now. I've bought a refurbished DSLR from Adorama and it was indistinguishable from new. At this price, you can pick up a kit lens and a tele-zoom like the 70-300mm and stay under $500 total. There's not a significant enough difference in image quality between this and the new Rebels to pay any more, IMO. It's also lighter than both the Pentax's. The Downside is that it has no Image Stabilization, sensor-cleaning, or weather sealing.

My last recommendation is an Olympus E-450 2 lens kit, $469.95. People don't like to recommend Olympus, but I think it might be a good option for you. You're going to consider the weights and dimensions of everything you bring. The E-450 or E-420 (which can be found for cheaper still) are the smallest, lightest SLRs being made. This kit at Adorama will cover wide-angle all the way to telephoto, and leave you with enough money to pick up a couple of Compact Flash cards. While it doesn't have image-stabilization, it does have the best sensor-clean made, as well as Live-View, which can also come in handy.


It sounds contrary to common advice, but the last feature I'd shop based on is image quality, for two reasons. One, you're coming from a Point & Shoot, so any entry-level SLR is going to provide that step up. Secondly, at this price-point, the playing-field is pretty much equalized. If you pixelpeep at 100% you will notice differences, or if you're trying to shoot ISO1600 or higher one body will be better than the other. But I'm going to guess you'll do neither. On my trip, over the course of 9 weeks, shot around 1000 frames, between my P&S and my film SLR. 95% of those were taken in broad daylight under a bright sun or overcast sky. Very rarely did I shoot at night, and if I did I popped the flash. You'll probably be in ISO 100-400 the entire trip.

Instead, I'd shop based on features like size and weight, durability, Image-stabilization, battery capability/battery life, ergonomics, etc. Find what setup gives you the best feature-set and is the easiest for you to use, and get that.

Feel free to PM me with any q's regarding this or bike-touring in general. And good luck!

 

[aphex]

On a side note, I came across a post where someone mentioned the k2000 doesn't allow you to manually select the focus point for AF? Is that true?

 

[extra]

Stick with the rebel unless you have some pentax lenses already.

Edit: yeah, if you can get a great deal on another brand though you'll be satisfied with the image quality of any of them probably. Don't count out olympus either.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: aphex
I was going by the dpreview review of the k2000

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pentaxk2000/page17.asp

Have you come across (or taken) any long exposure night shots with the k2000? I'm curious to see how they compare to my old d80.

I don't have the K-2000/K-m to know. I would check dpreview Pentax forums. I'm sure someone is more than willing to post their work. I can show off some K100D long exposures, but it isn't the exact same sensor.

Originally posted by: aphex
On a side note, I came across a post where someone mentioned the k2000 doesn't allow you to manually select the focus point for AF? Is that true?

Where? From the Dpreview review:

Focusing
? 5-area AF (SAFOX)*
? TTL Phase matching
? Focus point selectable
Focus modes ? AF-Auto*
? AF-Single
? AF-Continuous
? Manual focus

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: extra
Stick with the rebel unless you have some pentax lenses already.

Edit: yeah, if you can get a great deal on another brand though you'll be satisfied with the image quality of any of them probably. Don't count out olympus either.

Yup I've honestly learned that the IQ bitching is, in general, totally unwarranted. These cams generally produce great pics at any ISO. I wouldn't even hesitate against Olympus.

Print them and it changes things even further - you see how almost all DSLRs work great in this regard unless you go to super blown up sizes. I've done 20x30 on my 6MP cam and its still excellent.
This is also why I don't like NR that much ~ I notice the blotches and smudges in prints more than I notice noise.

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: arrfep
Argh. Friggin long response written and the internets ate it. Anyway, here are my recommendations which respectfully deviate from all the other ones so far:

Pentax K10D, $399. It's a couple generations old, but still a very capable camera. In-body image-stabilization and a fully weather-sealed body. This will come in handy on the road. Pick up a kit lens for under $100, or if you can stretch it more (I know everyone keeps suggesting that) you can get the new weather-sealed kit lens for ~$190 (only shopped for it briefly) which will give you a completely sealed system. If you use one of those 10% off coupons at Best Buy, you could get your total cost to around $550.

Alternately, and probably a better idea, now that I think about it, grab the Pentax K200D, $379. It's essentially the sensor from the K10D, moved down into Pentax's entry-level line. But it's also a generation newer, and probably a little easier to use. Side benefits are it being a quarter-pound lighter, and it also takes AA batteries, which could be invaluable if you are away from a place to charge for a couple days in a row. At $20 cheaper than the K10D, you can get much closer to your budget for your final kit.

If you want to go Canon, I'd pick up an Xti, $349. It's cheaper than any other Canon right now. I've bought a refurbished DSLR from Adorama and it was indistinguishable from new. At this price, you can pick up a kit lens and a tele-zoom like the 70-300mm and stay under $500 total. There's not a significant enough difference in image quality between this and the new Rebels to pay any more, IMO. It's also lighter than both the Pentax's. The Downside is that it has no Image Stabilization, sensor-cleaning, or weather sealing.

My last recommendation is an Olympus E-450 2 lens kit, $469.95. People don't like to recommend Olympus, but I think it might be a good option for you. You're going to consider the weights and dimensions of everything you bring. The E-450 or E-420 (which can be found for cheaper still) are the smallest, lightest SLRs being made. This kit at Adorama will cover wide-angle all the way to telephoto, and leave you with enough money to pick up a couple of Compact Flash cards. While it doesn't have image-stabilization, it does have the best sensor-clean made, as well as Live-View, which can also come in handy.


It sounds contrary to common advice, but the last feature I'd shop based on is image quality, for two reasons. One, you're coming from a Point & Shoot, so any entry-level SLR is going to provide that step up. Secondly, at this price-point, the playing-field is pretty much equalized. If you pixelpeep at 100% you will notice differences, or if you're trying to shoot ISO1600 or higher one body will be better than the other. But I'm going to guess you'll do neither. On my trip, over the course of 9 weeks, shot around 1000 frames, between my P&S and my film SLR. 95% of those were taken in broad daylight under a bright sun or overcast sky. Very rarely did I shoot at night, and if I did I popped the flash. You'll probably be in ISO 100-400 the entire trip.

Instead, I'd shop based on features like size and weight, durability, Image-stabilization, battery capability/battery life, ergonomics, etc. Find what setup gives you the best feature-set and is the easiest for you to use, and get that.

Feel free to PM me with any q's regarding this or bike-touring in general. And good luck!

Any idea where that kit lens can be picked up for 100 bucks? I looked around and couldn't find one for less than 200. The K200D would be my first choice, but getting it plus a lens for under 500 appears to be difficult.

The Olympus and XTI both seem to lack image stabilization, which seems like a pretty important feature. The Olympus in particular seems to combat shakiness by simply jacking up the ISO, which my Pentax Optio already does and the results are less than stunning. (although I was paying attention when it was pointed out that with DSLR's, higher ISOs aren't going to cause as big a problem)

If IQ is going to be leagues better than anything I'm used to anyway, and features are going to be the bigger concern, sounds like the K2000 might be the winner? I like the idea that I can use older (read: cheaper) lenses down the line while still getting IS, I like the dust removal feature (XS seems to lack this?) and the description mentions the K2000 has a much more friendly in-camera help feature to explain various settings and modes.

 

[pdo]

if you want the Pentax kit lens it's cheaper to buy the K2000 wit kit 18-55 lens rather then buy the body and kit lens separately. The Pentax kit lens is much better then Nikon's and Canon's kit lens.

 

[aphex]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: aphex
On a side note, I came across a post where someone mentioned the k2000 doesn't allow you to manually select the focus point for AF? Is that true?

Where? From the Dpreview review:

Focusing
? 5-area AF (SAFOX)*
? TTL Phase matching
? Focus point selectable
Focus modes ? AF-Auto*
? AF-Single
? AF-Continuous
? Manual focus

http://www.popphoto.com/Review...ntax-K2000-Camera-Test

Although there?s a menu item labeled ?Select AF point,? you can?t choose a point outside of the center one. Instead, you can widen or narrow the area the camera uses to find focus.

That alone might be the one thing that keeps me from getting it as I used different AF points quite often with my old D80.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: magomago
This is also why I don't like NR that much ~ I notice the blotches and smudges in prints more than I notice noise.

This is why I love how Pentax approaches noise. But I need Canikon's AF performance at times, and the K7 isn't sounding as spectacular as I had hoped, specifically with their own 16-50/50-135. I love my tokina 50-135, so having a motor paired w/ pentax would be awesome.. sans the fact it actually costs a lot more =(

 

[arrfep]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt

Originally posted by: arrfep
Argh. Friggin long response written and the internets ate it. Anyway, here are my recommendations which respectfully deviate from all the other ones so far:

Pentax K10D, $399. It's a couple generations old, but still a very capable camera. In-body image-stabilization and a fully weather-sealed body. This will come in handy on the road. Pick up a kit lens for under $100, or if you can stretch it more (I know everyone keeps suggesting that) you can get the new weather-sealed kit lens for ~$190 (only shopped for it briefly) which will give you a completely sealed system. If you use one of those 10% off coupons at Best Buy, you could get your total cost to around $550.

Alternately, and probably a better idea, now that I think about it, grab the Pentax K200D, $379. It's essentially the sensor from the K10D, moved down into Pentax's entry-level line. But it's also a generation newer, and probably a little easier to use. Side benefits are it being a quarter-pound lighter, and it also takes AA batteries, which could be invaluable if you are away from a place to charge for a couple days in a row. At $20 cheaper than the K10D, you can get much closer to your budget for your final kit.

If you want to go Canon, I'd pick up an Xti, $349. It's cheaper than any other Canon right now. I've bought a refurbished DSLR from Adorama and it was indistinguishable from new. At this price, you can pick up a kit lens and a tele-zoom like the 70-300mm and stay under $500 total. There's not a significant enough difference in image quality between this and the new Rebels to pay any more, IMO. It's also lighter than both the Pentax's. The Downside is that it has no Image Stabilization, sensor-cleaning, or weather sealing.

My last recommendation is an Olympus E-450 2 lens kit, $469.95. People don't like to recommend Olympus, but I think it might be a good option for you. You're going to consider the weights and dimensions of everything you bring. The E-450 or E-420 (which can be found for cheaper still) are the smallest, lightest SLRs being made. This kit at Adorama will cover wide-angle all the way to telephoto, and leave you with enough money to pick up a couple of Compact Flash cards. While it doesn't have image-stabilization, it does have the best sensor-clean made, as well as Live-View, which can also come in handy.


It sounds contrary to common advice, but the last feature I'd shop based on is image quality, for two reasons. One, you're coming from a Point & Shoot, so any entry-level SLR is going to provide that step up. Secondly, at this price-point, the playing-field is pretty much equalized. If you pixelpeep at 100% you will notice differences, or if you're trying to shoot ISO1600 or higher one body will be better than the other. But I'm going to guess you'll do neither. On my trip, over the course of 9 weeks, shot around 1000 frames, between my P&S and my film SLR. 95% of those were taken in broad daylight under a bright sun or overcast sky. Very rarely did I shoot at night, and if I did I popped the flash. You'll probably be in ISO 100-400 the entire trip.

Instead, I'd shop based on features like size and weight, durability, Image-stabilization, battery capability/battery life, ergonomics, etc. Find what setup gives you the best feature-set and is the easiest for you to use, and get that.

Feel free to PM me with any q's regarding this or bike-touring in general. And good luck!

Any idea where that kit lens can be picked up for 100 bucks? I looked around and couldn't find one for less than 200. The K200D would be my first choice, but getting it plus a lens for under 500 appears to be difficult.

The Olympus and XTI both seem to lack image stabilization, which seems like a pretty important feature. The Olympus in particular seems to combat shakiness by simply jacking up the ISO, which my Pentax Optio already does and the results are less than stunning. (although I was paying attention when it was pointed out that with DSLR's, higher ISOs aren't going to cause as big a problem)

If IQ is going to be leagues better than anything I'm used to anyway, and features are going to be the bigger concern, sounds like the K2000 might be the winner? I like the idea that I can use older (read: cheaper) lenses down the line while still getting IS, I like the dust removal feature (XS seems to lack this?) and the description mentions the K2000 has a much more friendly in-camera help feature to explain various settings and modes.

Pentax kit lens, $86 shipped. There you go, my friend. With the body at $409 shipped (assuming AZ sales taxes) you could probably still squeeze in a 1GB SD card and stay under $500.

If you going to go with a Pentax, that's what I would do. It's equal to or better than the K2000 in everything that matters. Comparison. At the same pricepoint, I'm not sure why the K2000 even keeps getting mentioned.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: arrfep
If you going to go with a Pentax, that's what I would do. It's equal to or better than the K2000 in everything that matters. Comparison. At the same pricepoint, I'm not sure why the K2000 even keeps getting mentioned.

Didn't Pentax improve on the AF w/ the K2000? not anything drastic of course, but it was notable.

 

[arrfep]

Originally posted by: randomlinh

Originally posted by: arrfep
If you going to go with a Pentax, that's what I would do. It's equal to or better than the K2000 in everything that matters. Comparison. At the same pricepoint, I'm not sure why the K2000 even keeps getting mentioned.

Didn't Pentax improve on the AF w/ the K2000? not anything drastic of course, but it was notable.

Not according to any information I could find. And if they did, it's negated by the fact that it only has 5 AF points to the K200D's 11 points, and also doesn't allow user to select the AF point.

 

[jpeyton]

None of the above. For $500, I'd get a used Nikon D40 body ($250) and a used AF-S Nikkor 18-105 VR ($250). That would be a great all-in-one travel combo.

 

[randomlinh]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
None of the above. For $500, I'd get a used Nikon D40 body ($250) and a used AF-S Nikkor 18-105 VR ($250). That would be a great all-in-one travel combo.

is that even easy to find? I don't think i've seen many D40's floating around