Help me pick a fun, 4 door manual trans car, 25-40k

[hoorah]

Hey guys,

Slowly creeping up on picking a new car. Been looking around for awhile but nothing out there really sells me. I currently have a 2001 330Ci 5-speed that I love with 160k miles on it. Have one baby seat in the back (not fun but do-able), another is in the works. Need something with 4 doors that can fit two baby seats, but still feel at home on a weekend track day.

Right now, I am mostly comparing new cars. I'm not opposed to a 3 year old CPO car (in fact, would prefer it), but the ATS and BMW are both new-only at this point. Not interested in CPO BMW - would put me in the E90 range, and being familiar with BMWs I'm not interested in that kind of maintenance. E90, as I understand, is a particularly maintenance intensive car. I do 18k miles/year, mostly highway, so fuel economy can't be ignored, but not looking for a prius. If I go used, I would like 3-5 years old, preferrably 3.

Requirements:

Manual transmission
4/5 doors and fit 2 baby seats in the back
25+ MPG
Fast-ish.
$40k max

What I'm looking at:

G37s - 6MT

Only comes in one trim (loaded), so it has NAV and all the extras. Sticker is 42+ (same as the BMW) but truecar claims it sells for 36+, which puts it on par with the ATS. 26mpg, so lowest of all considered options.

Likes: Proven, reliable engine with power / RWD / LSD / Decent room in the back / known good reliability
Dislikes: Exterior styling, interior styling

ATS - 2.0L Turbo w/ 6 speed

Priced one out on the website for 36k (basically, base model 2.0L turbo w/ 6speed). Not sure if this has LSD or not, may be the 'performance' package addon. Test drove one twice, once at the dealership (2.0L manual) and once at a driving event I was invited to (3.6L automatic). Its okay. I'm not in love with the car. Mother has a chevy and they frequently send her offers for loyalty cash on new cars, so figure I would probably pay 34.5 + extras for this.

Likes: 32+ MPG highway, decent power, possible LSD, exterior styling, built similar to car I am driving now
Dislikes: Dashboard, CUE, rear seat seems small, no idea about long term reliability.

BMW 328i - Haven't driven one yet, but not super excited about this. Not particularly a drivers car anymore. No LSD, manual transmissions as rare as unicorn tears, not a fan of BMW maintenance, stickers for 42k and sells for that as well. 335 way too expensive.

Mazda 6 Diesel - Don't know anything about this car yet other than from magazines.

Likes - Diesel engine gives 300+ lbft of torque, 50+ mpg, exterior styling, magazines claim 'sporty to drive'
Dislikes - Least sporty of all cars. Will probably be rare, especially in manual trim. FWD. Still built like a mazda6 and all the other cars in that segment.

 

[Throckmorton]

Why not a used CTS? I've seen ones with the 3.6L and manual trans for sale

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Test drive a G37 - I found the backseat cramped & the trunk small and was not fond of the motor that sounds and has vibrations equal to that of a truck engine.

RWD/Manual Trans/4-doors - There are only a handful of cars on the market. Youo already know all the players - drive & decide.

For used offerings -
G8 GXP. You'll pay $35K for a prime 2009 car with manual trans and the technology is not the greatest - but it is roomy, very fast, and gets decent hwy mileage - maintenance costs are significantly less than Euro's too and you will be driving a exclusive car.

535 - tough to find a manual but CPO and roomier -
CT 3.6L - tough to find Manual, but roomier.

AWD? Audi, STI/WRX, Evo?

 

[NutBucket]

Are you kid seats front facing or rear facing? If the latter I doubt any of the cars you mention could comfortably handle them. Those stupid things are huge.

 

[jlarsson]

I'm a bit biased ... but you could probably pick up a CPO Audi S4 (2010, maybe 2011) for under $40k. 6MT might be hard to find depending on where you live (none within 500 miles of where I live when I bought mine in January, settled for DSG). Just make sure you look for a model with the sport diff.

330+ hp, 300+ ft. lbs of torque (supercharged v-6)
AWD
Rated at 18 city/28 highway (for DSG, 17/26 for manual)

Downsides:
I wouldn't want to sit in the back seat for anything longer than a quick cross-town trip, so if you need back seat space for adults it's probably not a great car. Trunk is a decent size though.

Maintenance will be expensive, but that can't be unexpected if you are willing to drop up to $40k on a car.

 

[NutBucket]

Since you need some rear seat space how about a TL SH-AWD?

 

[hoorah]

Test drive a G37 - I found the backseat cramped & the trunk small and was not fond of the motor that sounds and has vibrations equal to that of a truck engine.

I drove the G37s with a manual on a test drive, and I drove the car hard. Loved the way it drove. Not too much a fan of the Nissan engine sound, but its not a deal breaker. At the end of the test drive, I could see myself owning the car, yet, when I look at the exterior and the interior in photos, I think 'eh, not really my style'. The interior seems 'busy', but the way the car drives is priority one so I suppose I could learn to like the interior. I didn't sit in the back seat on the test drive, but I did look at it. I suppose I should look at it a bit more in depth.

For used offerings -
G8 GXP. You'll pay $35K for a prime 2009 car with manual trans and the technology is not the greatest - but it is roomy, very fast, and gets decent hwy mileage - maintenance costs are significantly less than Euro's too and you will be driving a exclusive car.

I liked this idea, but finding one to even look at was impossible and I stopped looking. Also, when I looked up fuel economy I think it was only showing 20 on the highway, but it was so long ago I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly. If I could order this car today, and it was able to get 25mpg highway, I'd place the order and be done with it.

535 - tough to find a manual but CPO and roomier -
CT 3.6L - tough to find Manual, but roomier.
AWD? Audi, STI/WRX, Evo?

535 - you mean the BMW 535? Haven't really looked at it. Will consider. Last one of these I saw at a track day was a 550i and I rode his bumper for 2 laps until he let me pass.
CTS 3.6L - its in the back of my mind. Kind of forgot to look at it because I was drawn to the ATS, but with the lack of room in the rear of the ATS, I will probably take a second look at this one.
WRX/EVO - I test drove a WRX. Nice car, loved the power, but a bit small in the rear for baby seats. I guess I should take a look at the numbers and see how the rear seat room compares to the other cars on paper, but at first glance it seemed small.

Also, while the AWD is nice, I don’t really see a need for it (I live in FL, no snow) and I suspect the AWD is the reason for the poor fuel economy for such a small and light car (25 highway).

The subarus are worth their weight in gold in the northern climates because of their fantastic AWD, so I feel like I’m paying for something I’m never going to use.

WRX would be enough for me (performance-wise), STI is hotter than I need. EVO about the same as the STI, and for the same money new (about 35k), I’d reluctantly take the G37 over the EVO.

 

[hoorah]

Since you need some rear seat space how about a TL SH-AWD?

I don't know much about this car. Can you get this with a manual gearbox? I will look up some info on it. The newer acuras aren't the most attractive cars, but since nothing else is 'wow'ing me, no harm in checking it out, right?

 

[hoorah]

Are you kid seats front facing or rear facing? If the latter I doubt any of the cars you mention could comfortably handle them. Those stupid things are huge.

No kidding! These seats are huge!

I have one rear facing right now. He will be forward facing before number 2 comes along, which will start off in a rear facing infant carrier then move to a rear facing convertible seat. So we will have at most one rear facing seat.

I'm thinking (hoping) that at any one time, the rear facing seat can go behind a fully-forward passenger seat, and the front facing seat can go behind the driver.

 

[Riverhound777]

Dare I suggest a Focus ST? I'm a bit biased, but it does meet you needs, and you'd save some money, even with the ST3.

 

[cyclistca]

Audi A3/A4?

 

[vi edit]

Passat CC + APR upgrade?

 

[OSULugan]

I'm thinking (hoping) that at any one time, the rear facing seat can go behind a fully-forward passenger seat, and the front facing seat can go behind the driver.

What helped us in my A4 was to forego the seat base, and strap it in old-school using the seat belt. This saved quite a bit of room. But it also wasn't nearly as convenient as the click in base.

 

[NutBucket]

I don't know much about this car. Can you get this with a manual gearbox? I will look up some info on it. The newer acuras aren't the most attractive cars, but since nothing else is 'wow'ing me, no harm in checking it out, right?

Yep, if you opt for AWD they are available with a 6MT. I'm guessing it won't be terribly easy to find though.

 

[JCH13]

Newer Volvo S60 'R-design' or a used 2007(ish) S60R (hard to find in MT though).

Mazdaspeed3

Ford Taurus SHO

Just to give you ideas and to not repeat what everyone else has said.

 

[hoorah]

Newer Volvo S60 'R-design' or a used 2007(ish) S60R (hard to find in MT though).

Mazdaspeed3

Ford Taurus SHO

Just to give you ideas and to not repeat what everyone else has said.

S60R - don't believe these ever had the option of a manual gearbox, did they?

Speed3 - a bit small. I had my fingers crossed for the return of the speed6 for 2013 but no dice. 2014 will probably be too far off.

Taurus SHO is auto only I believe. I did want to drive one just to see what its like, but without a manual gearbox I don't think its going to happen.

 

[JCH13]

S60R - don't believe these ever had the option of a manual gearbox, did they?

Speed3 - a bit small. I had my fingers crossed for the return of the speed6 for 2013 but no dice. 2014 will probably be too far off.

Taurus SHO is auto only I believe. I did want to drive one just to see what its like, but without a manual gearbox I don't think its going to happen.

Yar, S60R had a MT as an option (I've been in one).

Sad that the MS3 is too small for you... it's a good fit for your needs.

Try the SHO anyway, I know I would. It does have paddles, does that count for something?

 

[hoorah]

Yar, S60R had a MT as an option (I've been in one).

Sad that the MS3 is too small for you... it's a good fit for your needs.

Try the SHO anyway, I know I would. It does have paddles, does that count for something?

I will check out the R then. How old do I have to go? I was invited to a 'naughty volvo' driving event (similar to the ATS one) when they released the new S60. Immediately inquired about the manual option, at which point they told me I was a savage brute of yesteryear. Well, okay, they didn't use those words exactly, but they tried to convince me that autos were the way of the future. No dice.

The paddles? Eh, I want to love them, but no. Has to have a third pedal.

The MS3 seemed small, but I haven't actually compared it side-by-side to anything (same with the WRX). When I get less lazy, I need to actually sit down and go through the rear legroom/volume stats on these cars. Basically, its all about the room to put a baby seat in the rear. Its possible it might work, and the car does have LSD. 23mpg highway is a little on the low side, but its cheap enough to make up for some of it. Not a huge fan of the grill, but like I said before, nothing is really wowing me in the looks department so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I like your avatar. I was on the UFSAE team for a semester back in college, but that was many years ago.

 

[JCH13]

I will check out the R then. How old do I have to go? I was invited to a 'naughty volvo' driving event (similar to the ATS one) when they released the new S60. Immediately inquired about the manual option, at which point they told me I was a savage brute of yesteryear. Well, okay, they didn't use those words exactly, but they tried to convince me that autos were the way of the future. No dice.

The paddles? Eh, I want to love them, but no. Has to have a third pedal.

The MS3 seemed small, but I haven't actually compared it side-by-side to anything (same with the WRX). When I get less lazy, I need to actually sit down and go through the rear legroom/volume stats on these cars. Basically, its all about the room to put a baby seat in the rear. Its possible it might work, and the car does have LSD. 23mpg highway is a little on the low side, but its cheap enough to make up for some of it. Not a huge fan of the grill, but like I said before, nothing is really wowing me in the looks department so I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I like your avatar. I was on the UFSAE team for a semester back in college, but that was many years ago.

I believe 2004-2007, the first run of the S60R, had the MT option. It wasn't very common, so if you like the car otherwise you might have to do a bit of searching to find one. My mom has one with an auto and it is very enjoyable with 300hp/awd/electronically adjustable shocks.

Also, FWIW, I get 22-23mpg WORST CASE with my MS3, doing a lot of idling and never getting out of 4th on my commute to work are to blame. Normal driving I get 27-29mpg and have gotten 30-33mg on the interstate before.

FSAE ftw!

 

[hoorah]

I believe 2004-2007, the first run of the S60R, had the MT option. It wasn't very common, so if you like the car otherwise you might have to do a bit of searching to find one. My mom has one with an auto and it is very enjoyable with 300hp/awd/electronically adjustable shocks.

Also, FWIW, I get 22-23mpg WORST CASE with my MS3, doing a lot of idling and never getting out of 4th on my commute to work are to blame. Normal driving I get 27-29mpg and have gotten 30-33mg on the interstate before.

FSAE ftw!

2007 is going to be a bit on the old side, but possible. I don't have a hard and fast criteria for age, but I'm at a point where I've got one kid and another planned and almost zero time, and a friend and I are considering building a Chumpcar/LeMons car. Now is the time for a DD under warranty (at least powertrain), and in a few years, when its out of warranty, I'll be fine with going back to doing my own repairs.

Also, WTF on the fuel economy for the MS3? I had no idea. Book numbers were 23/24 highway, so I hadnt looked at it seriously. 33? I will definitely swing back around for another look at fitting the car seat in the back.

 

[hoorah]

I'm a bit biased ... but you could probably pick up a CPO Audi S4 (2010, maybe 2011) for under $40k. 6MT might be hard to find depending on where you live (none within 500 miles of where I live when I bought mine in January, settled for DSG). Just make sure you look for a model with the sport diff.

330+ hp, 300+ ft. lbs of torque (supercharged v-6)
AWD
Rated at 18 city/28 highway (for DSG, 17/26 for manual)

Downsides:
I wouldn't want to sit in the back seat for anything longer than a quick cross-town trip, so if you need back seat space for adults it's probably not a great car. Trunk is a decent size though.

Maintenance will be expensive, but that can't be unexpected if you are willing to drop up to $40k on a car.

Audi A3/A4?

Passat CC + APR upgrade?

I had a whole thing typed up for this and it somehow got lost. So here is round two.

After two BMWs, I'm hesitant on another German car. I do most of my own work on my cars, and while I don't mind the added expense of a premium performing car, like spending more on brakes, tires, and oil, I'm trying to tone it down a bit. My 330 ate suspension bushings constantly until I changed everything to poly. Even though I replaced my cooling system on the preventative interval of 60k miles, even though it was okay, I was always worried that it was going to blow because they did so often. I would fix one oil leak to find another.

Sure, every car is going to have its problems, and I'm pretty good at wrenching. I just want to wrench a *little* less than I do now, which means either picking something a little less complicated (like the VQ motor in the G37) or ponying up the cash for something newer and riding under the warranty for longer.

40k for a used 2010 is going to be a bit outside the boundaries of my budget. I was thinking more 25k for a used CPO car, 35K for a new car, but not 35-40k for a CPO car. I test drove an Audi S4 a friend of mine owned back in high school and the thing was glorious. Good suggestion, but just out of reach I'm afraid.

The A4/A3 I've been somewhat considering. Like I said, I'm not thrilled about another German but the A3 I could easily afford new and that would give me a good while under the warranty umbrella to decide if I want to keep it long term. Been meaning to get a chance to get to a dealer and test drive one.

 

[hoorah]

What helped us in my A4 was to forego the seat base, and strap it in old-school using the seat belt. This saved quite a bit of room. But it also wasn't nearly as convenient as the click in base.

Did you ever try to put a non-infant carrier sized seat behind either the driver or the passenger side? How did the A4 do if so?

I looked up awhile ago a website where they put infant seats in different cars and rated them. I believe they said that a rear facing seat touched the back of the front compartment seat on the G37 and the ATS, which they didn't like, but overall it fit.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[OSULugan]

Did you ever try to put a non-infant carrier sized seat behind either the driver or the passenger side? How did the A4 do if so?

My youngest is now 2 years old. I got a smaller convertible car seat front-facing behind the driver-seat okay. Previously, we'd used a Safety 1st Infant seat rated up to 35 lbs, so she went straight to the forward facing convertible seat in my car. She sits behind the driver, and I am comfortable. But I'm only 5'10", and tend to have my seat a bit more forward than most.

With the infant seat behind the passenger seat, it had to be pushed up a bit, but without the base installed, it wasn't all the way forward. Plus, my A4 is a 2004, and the interior size is a bit different now (I think the last year with the same interior styling/spacing was 2008).

I think that the A3 might be too small, based on what I've seen of the A3 comparatively. I will say that I got my 6-speed A4 CPO with about 40k miles for < $20k about 5 years ago which would be right in your price range. The S4 will likely be 2x the price, depending on the year. You'll be looking for 09+ for fuel economy (2008 was the last year with the V8 in it), so that will push the price up a bit, too. But the added power may be worth it. Of course, with my 1.8T I can get 33 mpg+ on the highway.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

I'll throw out one more car -

1st gen CTS-V - they only came with a manual trans. You can get a very clean low-mileage 2007 with the 6.0L V8 for $25k or less. Later years had the rear diff problem fixed & I think the wheel hop had been fixed too. Only other issue is the plasticky dash buttons which are prone to rubbing off/cracking.


2nd Gen CTS-V with the SC 6.2L will set you back about $40K for a 2009 - with an all new CTS due out next year, prices will start dropping if you can hold out.

Jaguar XF - no manual trans option, but depreciating fast


2002 E39 M5 - 6spd, maintenance is not terrible - before Bangle started designing, and roomy.

Rreally in a tough spot to find the perfect ride - Manual RWD sport sedans are not easy to find these days.

 

[Arkaign]

2G CTS-V is basically a perfect choice.

For BMW no smaller than a 5 series. I've been there, done that, baby stuff these days is just too huge for a compact car.