Help me design a workout routine

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dtyn

All of the martial artists I train with use gravity training. Weight lifting kills your flexibility, and flexibility training + weight lifting = no change in flexibility. I'm sure grapplers use weight lifting because flexibility doesn't matter to them, but most serious hand&foot artists use gravity training. They even took us through the routines of gravity training at the TKD Olympic Training Center this past year. But, I'm sure if you spent your life in a gym, you could find away to gain strength and flexibility even with the incorporation of weight lifting.

?!? even ancient martial artists did strength training by moving weights. I don't know where or how you get the weight training = muscle-bound...that line of thinking died in the 60's.

You did say all of the martial artists you train with use gravity training.....however are you saying absolutely none train with weights? I find that laughable if so.

What art is this even? What level are the artists?

Å

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

regardless of belt systems, everyone has a 'level'....I am willing to bet regardless of how long you have been training you haven't really gone to far in it...but if you were at least 18 now, that would be 14 years of it.

Handstand pushups are a nice palor 'trick', but let me ask you something, how do you feel that using your body weight is any different, than less-effective than weights? A body doesn't know what resistance it's given....that resistance breaks down the tissues and they get stronger. Whether you are lifting yourself, your 1st Dan 'buddy', or 300lbs of iron.

The TKD Olympic Training Center is just a studio? What a misnomer....I imagine like most TKD studios even the black belts aren't very serious, out of the TKD schools I have seen only about 10% of them I would say teach you anything other than for $100 a month they can guarantee your belt will change colors frequently.

There is not one real 'scientific' study that proves without a doubt that weightlifting will make you 'muscle-bound' and inflexible....as a matter of fact quite a few of the greatest body builders of all time are amazingly flexible. The more flexible the larger the range of motion and the more fibers you can bring into the exercise and the larger the resulting muscle will become.

To bring up Bruce Lee again, he was one of the most athletic and skilled martial artists that has ever been....he used weights.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dtyn

All of the martial artists I train with use gravity training. Weight lifting kills your flexibility, and flexibility training + weight lifting = no change in flexibility. I'm sure grapplers use weight lifting because flexibility doesn't matter to them, but most serious hand&foot artists use gravity training. They even took us through the routines of gravity training at the TKD Olympic Training Center this past year. But, I'm sure if you spent your life in a gym, you could find away to gain strength and flexibility even with the incorporation of weight lifting.

?!? even ancient martial artists did strength training by moving weights. I don't know where or how you get the weight training = muscle-bound...that line of thinking died in the 60's.

You did say all of the martial artists you train with use gravity training.....however are you saying absolutely none train with weights? I find that laughable if so.

What art is this even? What level are the artists?

Å

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

Handstand pushups aren't hard, they're just a military press using your body weight.

 

[CKDragon]

Asking for workout advice on ATOT is like asking for computer advice on forums.bodybuilding.com I'm sure that there are plenty of people here that have specialized routines that work for them, but over at bb.com there is more quality information to be found.

To throw my own two cents in the ring, I think that for someone completely new to weight training, the first 2 months of serious training should be spent employing a full body workout 2-3x a week. DON'T OVERDO IT AND LOSE YOUR MOTIVATION. One of the problems with starting out with a split like you are planning is that if you miss a day or two your weekly schedule will be all screwed up which can be somewhat discouraging, depending on what kind of person you are. I'm currently on a 4-day split and I go insane trying to rearrange my schedule because my Tuesday workout somehow slides into Wednesday.

CK

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: CKDragon
Asking for workout advice on ATOT is like asking for computer advice on forums.bodybuilding.com I'm sure that there are plenty of people here that have specialized routines that work for them, but over at bb.com there is more quality information to be found.

To throw my own two cents in the ring, I think that for someone completely new to weight training, the first 2 months of serious training should be spent employing a full body workout 2-3x a week. DON'T OVERDO IT AND LOSE YOUR MOTIVATION. One of the problems with starting out with a split like you are planning is that if you miss a day or two your weekly schedule will be all screwed up which can be somewhat discouraging, depending on what kind of person you are. I'm currently on a 4-day split and I go insane trying to rearrange my schedule because my Tuesday workout somehow slides into Wednesday.

CK

Very true, a good workout doesn't have to be a split or an everyday thing. The important thing is finding something you can do regularly....if you miss one, oh well, you miss it...as long as you are missing only a few here and there it's not a big deal.

Only if you want to be fiercely strong, huge, or are competing athletically do daily long workouts really pay off...if you just want to be fit and trim and able to carry a tv without worrying about pulling something a total body workout 3x a week is a great way to do it....hit the gym 30-45mins, an hour if you can and do a couple exercises for each major muscle group and then 1 for the minor ones....add exercises or do more sets if you have more time.

A decent total body workout would be:

Inc Press
Bench Press

Lat Pulldowns/Pullups
Bent Rows

Squats or Leg Presses
Leg Curls

Military Press
Lateral Raises

Biceps Curl
Hammer Curl

Triceps Ext./Dips

Calf Raises
Wrist curls if you need it

Crunches
Leg Raises

Å

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dtyn

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

regardless of belt systems, everyone has a 'level'....I am willing to bet regardless of how long you have been training you haven't really gone to far in it...but if you were at least 18 now, that would be 14 years of it.

Handstand pushups are a nice palor 'trick', but let me ask you something, how do you feel that using your body weight is any different, than less-effective than weights? A body doesn't know what resistance it's given....that resistance breaks down the tissues and they get stronger. Whether you are lifting yourself, your 1st Dan 'buddy', or 300lbs of iron.

The TKD Olympic Training Center is just a studio? What a misnomer....I imagine like most TKD studios even the black belts aren't very serious, out of the TKD schools I have seen only about 10% of them I would say teach you anything other than for $100 a month they can guarantee your belt will change colors frequently.

There is not one real 'scientific' study that proves without a doubt that weightlifting will make you 'muscle-bound' and inflexible....as a matter of fact quite a few of the greatest body builders of all time are amazingly flexible. The more flexible the larger the range of motion and the more fibers you can bring into the exercise and the larger the resulting muscle will become.

To bring up Bruce Lee again, he was one of the most athletic and skilled martial artists that has ever been....he used weights.

The TKD Olympic Training Center is just that, the Training Center for Olympic participants, not a studio . If you must insist on a level, I've been training for 16 years, which would put me at a 5th Dan. I train 3 hours a day, 7 days a week. I believe I would call myself skilled. Hand stand pushups are a parlor trick? Do them for me, and tell me they're a trick. And while Bruce Lee was an exceptional martial artist, he is most definately not one of hte most athletic and skilled that have ever been. Gichin Funakoshi was much more skilled than Lee, and he never used weights. You must believe what you choose to believe, I'm not going to try and change that. However, you obviously don't have any serious clue when it comes to the actual practice of real martial arts, so please refrain from commenting on such, as it is an insult to those who truly practice these arts for more than exercise. As I said, you believe what you want, I'll believe in what I have seen.

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dtyn

All of the martial artists I train with use gravity training. Weight lifting kills your flexibility, and flexibility training + weight lifting = no change in flexibility. I'm sure grapplers use weight lifting because flexibility doesn't matter to them, but most serious hand&foot artists use gravity training. They even took us through the routines of gravity training at the TKD Olympic Training Center this past year. But, I'm sure if you spent your life in a gym, you could find away to gain strength and flexibility even with the incorporation of weight lifting.

?!? even ancient martial artists did strength training by moving weights. I don't know where or how you get the weight training = muscle-bound...that line of thinking died in the 60's.

You did say all of the martial artists you train with use gravity training.....however are you saying absolutely none train with weights? I find that laughable if so.

What art is this even? What level are the artists?

Å

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

Handstand pushups aren't hard, they're just a military press using your body weight.

Plus, using muscles to balance yourself. Try them before you say they aren't difficult. If you have never tried before, but you can military press your body weight, I am sure you would not be able to pump out even one.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dtyn

All of the martial artists I train with use gravity training. Weight lifting kills your flexibility, and flexibility training + weight lifting = no change in flexibility. I'm sure grapplers use weight lifting because flexibility doesn't matter to them, but most serious hand&foot artists use gravity training. They even took us through the routines of gravity training at the TKD Olympic Training Center this past year. But, I'm sure if you spent your life in a gym, you could find away to gain strength and flexibility even with the incorporation of weight lifting.

?!? even ancient martial artists did strength training by moving weights. I don't know where or how you get the weight training = muscle-bound...that line of thinking died in the 60's.

You did say all of the martial artists you train with use gravity training.....however are you saying absolutely none train with weights? I find that laughable if so.

What art is this even? What level are the artists?

Å

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

Handstand pushups aren't hard, they're just a military press using your body weight.

Plus, using muscles to balance yourself. Try them before you say they aren't difficult. If you have never tried before, but you can military press your body weight, I am sure you would not be able to pump out even one.

I assume you mean against a wall. I don't see how it's that much different than military press, your body is stabalized in each.

Yup, I used to do them in gymnastics... they weren't bad... For building muscle military press is superior (obviously more overload = more muscle mass) to handstand pushups.

If you are doing them without a wall, then you're going to be working alot more than shoulders in keeping your balance. Of course they're going to be harder, how many people can do this who aren't gymnasts? Not many. It's like saying Syllvester Stallone can beat you down b/c he can do one handed pushups, it's absurd. Maybe the man who can bench 650 lbs can't do a one handed pushup, or a handstand pushup, but guaranteed he's stronger and would beat your gravity training @ss. After all, the point of working out is to gain strength... For gymnasts it's not as much strength, but also form, balance, and flexibility. Body builders could give a dam about anything other than strength.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
but guaranteed he's stronger and would beat your gravity training @ss.

Damn I choked on my coke.
Å

 

[Gyrene]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: dtyn

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: dtyn

All of the martial artists I train with use gravity training. Weight lifting kills your flexibility, and flexibility training + weight lifting = no change in flexibility. I'm sure grapplers use weight lifting because flexibility doesn't matter to them, but most serious hand&foot artists use gravity training. They even took us through the routines of gravity training at the TKD Olympic Training Center this past year. But, I'm sure if you spent your life in a gym, you could find away to gain strength and flexibility even with the incorporation of weight lifting.

?!? even ancient martial artists did strength training by moving weights. I don't know where or how you get the weight training = muscle-bound...that line of thinking died in the 60's.

You did say all of the martial artists you train with use gravity training.....however are you saying absolutely none train with weights? I find that laughable if so.

What art is this even? What level are the artists?

Å

Shorei-ryu karate + kenjutsu. No one uses weights. We don't use set levels, as those are basically arbitrary systems, but to give you an idea, I've been training since age 4 (forced by family until 10, then became serious on my own). Try pumping out 10 pushups while in handstand formation, then tell me it's laughable.

And for the artists at the TKD Olypic Training Center...they were all atleast 1st Dans, and the ones I conversed with did not lift weights. Fact is, weight lifting decreases flexibility, point and fact. We choose to work out with the natural force of the earth + our body weight, and to say it's laughable is ignorant at best.

Handstand pushups aren't hard, they're just a military press using your body weight.

Plus, using muscles to balance yourself. Try them before you say they aren't difficult. If you have never tried before, but you can military press your body weight, I am sure you would not be able to pump out even one.

I assume you mean against a wall. I don't see how it's that much different than military press, your body is stabalized in each.

Yup, I used to do them in gymnastics... they weren't bad... For building muscle military press is superior (obviously more overload = more muscle mass) to handstand pushups.

If you are doing them without a wall, then you're going to be working alot more than shoulders in keeping your balance. Of course they're going to be harder, how many people can do this who aren't gymnasts? Not many. It's like saying Syllvester Stallone can beat you down b/c he can do one handed pushups, it's absurd. Maybe the man who can bench 650 lbs can't do a one handed pushup, or a handstand pushup, but guaranteed he's stronger and would beat your gravity training @ss. After all, the point of working out is to gain strength... For gymnasts it's not as much strength, but also form, balance, and flexibility. Body builders could give a dam about anything other than strength.

I'm talking about away from a wall. Why do people assume that strength is everything. It reminds me of the thread started by Snapit...funny thread. Gravity training builds strength without any loss of flexibility. Add muscle-memory training, reflex training, balance training, and a regiment of basic review to your schedule, and strength isn't so important anymore. I really don't want to start this debate up again, but, suffice to say, those who have never learned traditional martial arts and applied them in an uncontrolled environment will most always believe size and strength beat all. It's impossible to change their mind, so I'm not even going to try. Just remember speed*mass=power, and to fight effectively you have to maintain balance.

I never said that handstand pushup made you an uber-powerful fighter, I gave them an example of gravity training. The point of working out is not always to just build strength. My workouts focus on endurance, speed, balance, muscle-memory, AND strength. Strength is 1/5 of the total workout. Not everyone who works out desires to be a body builder. If you want to be a body builder, by all means, use weights. For anything else, I would use gravity training supplemented by maybe one or two weight work outs. True martial artists understand that strength isn't everything. Grace can easily overcome strength. But, as I said, I don't expect you to understand or agree. My arguement is finished.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: dtyn

I'm talking about away from a wall. Why do people assume that strength is everything. It reminds me of the thread started by Snapit...funny thread. Gravity training builds strength without any loss of flexibility. Add muscle-memory training, reflex training, balance training, and a regiment of basic review to your schedule, and strength isn't so important anymore. I really don't want to start this debate up again, but, suffice to say, those who have never learned traditional martial arts and applied them in an uncontrolled environment will most always believe size and strength beat all. It's impossible to change their mind, so I'm not even going to try. Just remember speed*mass=power, and to fight effectively you have to maintain balance.

hmm because a stronger fighter is usually a better fighter....same can be said if you can't take a punch, how can you ever be a great fighter too.... I am not sure where you are getting this strength training = loss of flexibility, it doesn't make any sense at a biological level which I have 7 years in. Not to mention when I was lifting 2-3 hours a day + wrestling, football and karate I was the most flexible I ever was and I was extremely strong and fast. I used to challenge the red necks at the county fair that I could hit that punching bag thing without a running start versus anyway they wanted to do it.

I never said that handstand pushup made you an uber-powerful fighter, I gave them an example of gravity training. The point of working out is not always to just build strength. My workouts focus on endurance, speed, balance, muscle-memory, AND strength. Strength is 1/5 of the total workout. Not everyone who works out desires to be a body builder. If you want to be a body builder, by all means, use weights. For anything else, I would use gravity training supplemented by maybe one or two weight work outs. True martial artists understand that strength isn't everything. Grace can easily overcome strength. But, as I said, I don't expect you to understand or agree. My arguement is finished.

Handstand pushups are impractical really, dangers of losing balance is pretty great as you fatigue, but again it's more a palor trick....a military press will give you almost the same exact effect and be more safe and practical.

I would seriously doubt more than 10% of professional martial artist that compete in sparring/combat will claim they do no weight-based training. Becoming a 'body builder' will not be what most people ever become, that is very specialized....same way these 'strongman' types are, again it takes very specialized training.

No one is saying that a martial artist or anyone else is saying absolute strength is all one needs, nor that Grace can overcome strength (not always easily)....but the real fact is that strength and grace can overcome grace alone....and strength, grace, and a .40 auto can overcome pretty much anything on the street.

Å

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: dtyn

I'm talking about away from a wall. Why do people assume that strength is everything. It reminds me of the thread started by Snapit...funny thread. Gravity training builds strength without any loss of flexibility. Add muscle-memory training, reflex training, balance training, and a regiment of basic review to your schedule, and strength isn't so important anymore. I really don't want to start this debate up again, but, suffice to say, those who have never learned traditional martial arts and applied them in an uncontrolled environment will most always believe size and strength beat all. It's impossible to change their mind, so I'm not even going to try. Just remember speed*mass=power, and to fight effectively you have to maintain balance.

I never said that handstand pushup made you an uber-powerful fighter, I gave them an example of gravity training. The point of working out is not always to just build strength. My workouts focus on endurance, speed, balance, muscle-memory, AND strength. Strength is 1/5 of the total workout. Not everyone who works out desires to be a body builder. If you want to be a body builder, by all means, use weights. For anything else, I would use gravity training supplemented by maybe one or two weight work outs. True martial artists understand that strength isn't everything. Grace can easily overcome strength. But, as I said, I don't expect you to understand or agree. My arguement is finished.

Point taken, I guess I'm a little biased since I like to body build. In a fight, I agree grace will overcome strength many times, hell look at Jet Li or Jackie Chan... Grappling on the ground neutralizes strength as well, look at Gracie winning all those UFC's (here balance isn't all that important, it's technique/knowledge/strength/speed). The downside to grace is that one mistake, and you're knocked out... Your equation: speed*mass=power, many would argue that strength allows a person to swing and hit *faster*(ex: it's been proven that fast pitch muscles are stimulated by heavy 1rep max), as well as usually possessing more mass as a result of being strong. We could probably talk about it all night and noone would be right b/c it's a grey area

Like it was discussed in the other thread about speed, where is the point where mass inhibits your speed?

 

[Gyrene]

Alkemyst: You have your view, I have mine. Let's have a :beer: and agree to disagree.

 

[ThaPerculator]

When your mass is what's causing your speed, I don't know if there is really a point where it slows it down. If so, it's when you're FREAKING HUGE.

My point is this... the dude wanted to know about a good workout routine to get in shape, not to be a martial artist. The fastest way to gain muscle mass, which therefore burns more calories, which cuts fat faster, which makes you look more appealing is to have a balanced resistance training/cardio workout. Also diet is a big part but that's a gimme.

You know, the whole crazy pushups thing is nice and all, but how practical is it. I think that the average person would need to lift heavy objects more frequently than they would need to do a inverted handstand pushup thingy. If you're training to fight, cool, keep doing it. But to just get into shape, showmanship is probably the last thing thats important.

Besides, chicks dig muscles

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: dtyn
Alkemyst: You have your view, I have mine. Let's have a :beer: and agree to disagree.

cool, I am sure if we met we'd have a nice compromise ...the 'net leaves out a lot of the conversation.

I am :beer: ing it up as we speak

Å