Help me decide who to vote for...

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davestar

Golden Member
Oct 21, 2001
1,787
0
0
In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden. McCain/Palin def. fall short in that regard. Here's the problem though, my philosophical viewpoints are conservative in nature. A few things that Obama really wants I am completely against. National Healthcare for instance. I am completely against that. I think its widely accepted that Dem's are for MORE government while Rep's are for less. I think the gov. should be MUCH smaller than it is. Also, Dem's are generally considered to be in favor of higher taxes while Rep's are in favor of lower taxes. Again, another thing I am agreeing with the Rep's about.

Now I realize that what the Rep's say they stand for and what they do are often two completely different things. Rep's say they are fiscally conservative, but everything points elsewhere. They say they are for smaller gov. but they constantly increase the size of gov. and how inefficient it is. They say they are for smaller taxes, but they only give it to big business.

On the other hand, Dem's are for none of that. So do I vote for the people who pretend they want what I want, or do I vote for the people that just flat tell me they are against what I want?

so in the entirity of your OP, you only call out 3 negatives about Obama: (1) UHC, (2) big gov't, and (3) high taxes. however, you rightly note that republicans are often more guilty of (2) and (3) than are democrats. so that leaves (1).

the first thing to note about Obama's push for UHC is that he's not pushing for UHC. he thinks that healthcare should be provided for children. this seems pretty reasonable. second, Obama has proven to be very pragmatic - if there's pressing issues at hand, he won't insist that his ideals take the focus. sure, he wants to get out of Iraq ASAP, but he's more than willing to take into account our generals' and Iraq's POVs. he doesn't want to drill offshore, but he's willing to concede on that point if it will stabalize oil prices as we work towards a permanent energy fix. republicans might argue that he's flip-flopping or pandering for votes, but a willingness to adapt to the realities at hand rather than stick to impractical or outdated ideals (free market, unqualified victory in Iraq) is a good thing in my book.

he's not going to shove psuedo-UHC down our throats while managing two wars and fixing the economy.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: eskimospy
-snip-
Most importantly I think one party rule would be helpful because most of the platform Obama supports (middle class tax cuts, UHC, ending the war in Iraq, etc.) is overwhelmingly popular in the US at large. You aren't going to get those highly popular programs enacted with McCain as president.

I trend to think if the proposals are all that popular, they're gonna pass no matter what.

Might be a tussle over other crap slipped in, or some of the details, but they'll pass.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,127
48,193
136
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: eskimospy
-snip-
Most importantly I think one party rule would be helpful because most of the platform Obama supports (middle class tax cuts, UHC, ending the war in Iraq, etc.) is overwhelmingly popular in the US at large. You aren't going to get those highly popular programs enacted with McCain as president.

I trend to think if the proposals are all that popular, they're gonna pass no matter what.

Might be a tussle over other crap slipped in, or some of the details, but they'll pass.

Fern

Well that's not really true. It's a representative democracy. The bailout bill is hugely unpopular, but it will pass. In poll after poll UHC is supported by about a 2/3rds majority. (I'd have to check exact numbers) Any issue with 2/3rds support or more in America is a landslide. The majority have wanted us out of Iraq immediately regardless of consequences for several years now. Last time I checked we were still there.

So... frequently popular ideas that are unpopular with politicans go nowhere.
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
There will be other Pres/VP candidates on enough ballots nationwide to have an outside chance, so your options aren't limited to Dumb and Dumber... If our political system was anywhere near rational, Obama would be on the Socialist line, McCain would be on the Democrat line, Romney would be on the Republican line, Paul would be on the Libertarian line and Nader would be on the Stalinist line (he's been an "ends justify the means"/"his way ore the highway" type since the Corvair debacle where he manufactured his statistics and I've never heard of his apologizing for any of his lies).
. So know what your politico/economic philosophy is and vote the principles that spring from it (this is the main responsibility of a free citizen) - you'll be able to sleep better on election night.
. There are really only two political philosophies - either individuals should be free to manage their own lives or not. Everything not the first is just some degree of the second. The USA is the only country where the citizens are really supposed to be free (a lot of socialism has crept in with the later waves of European immigrants around the turn of the 20th century) and supposed to be held responsible for their actions (the "natural law" concept). So if you are a true American, you should vote for the one who best reflects those principles. If you find that your favored philosophy is at odds with the American concept, then there is probably at least one other country which applies it, so go there! Trying to change our gov't to some other philosophy got us to the mess where we are now - which isn't as it was intended.
. The Federal gov't was originally designed so that the individual would hardly notice its existence. Generally, county govt was the highest level where issues involving individuals were to be decided so lots of schemes could be tried and either succeed and spread or fail and be discarded without hurting too many people and an individual wouldn't have to move too far to find a more suitable situation. If that had been retained, then most of our Fed. Gov't caused messes wouldn't have happened, from prohibition (alcohol and other drugs) to the great depression to the current fiasco in which we find ourselves enmeshed. One way to distinguish an "individual freedom/individual responsibility" politician is to know if their speech and actions are individual oriented or smacks of group-think (on ethnic, economic, religious, corporate or whatever grounds - it always breaks down to that group vs. this, them vs. us...).
. A cautionary tale: There is a radio talk show host named Neal Boortz who calls himself libertarian, but went against his principles and encouraged voting Republican in the last couple of Presidential elections and we mainly got more of the big federal gov't, higher taxes, lower privacy, valueless currency, and international meddling that libertarians stand against. Neither of the Dem. opponents to Bush could be considered a valid candidate to real Americans (Gore is certifiable, and Kerry is a war criminal (consorting with the enemy while still an active-duty Army officer - he should have been tried by military tribunal and imprisoned or executed on a two-holer along with Jane Fonda)) and had little true chance of winning. So Boortz gained nothing for betraying his principles and lost a degree of self-respect. Boortz's fortunes have declined substantially since then (particularly to libertarians, which he still claims to be) - the list of station outlets he claims for his show is way outdated (WHCU in Ithaca for sure no longer airs his show, so others are sure to be present but not accounted for...).
. The moral: analyze and choose your philosophy with its attendant set of principles carefully and well, and then stick by them. In that way people can have an idea where you stand and what to expect from you. If you choose wrong (disclosed by the consequences of applying incorrect principles), then learn from your mistakes and adjust it.

This sounds like a lot of effort, but freedom isn't free - this is just the down payment.

.bh.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: Mani
Ok, I will say one thing, and it's been pointed out in this thread by some. UHC will not happen under Obama. No ifs ands or buts about it. That's may or may not be a good thing, but if you're concerned about it, don't be.

Tell him to put it down on paper and I'll believe it.
 

Hugh H

Senior member
Jul 11, 2008
315
0
0
Originally posted by: Cuda1447

In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden. McCain/Palin def. fall short in that regard. Here's the problem though, my philosophical viewpoints are conservative in nature. A few things that Obama really wants I am completely against. National Healthcare for instance. I am completely against that. I think its widely accepted that Dem's are for MORE government while Rep's are for less. I think the gov. should be MUCH smaller than it is. Also, Dem's are generally considered to be in favor of higher taxes while Rep's are in favor of lower taxes. Again, another thing I am agreeing with the Rep's about.

Seems that you fell for that ZOMG! Obama will raise your taxes line. He offers significant tax cuts, much more than McCain, for low to middle income Americans. Also, he is pushing for tax incentives for small businesses. Only big corporations and individuals making more than 200,000, or families making more than 250,000 will see a tax increase. I'm sure people may have brought this up already in this thread, but it warrants all the mention it can get given the Republicans' effectiveness on labeling Democrats a certain way (and people keep falling for it).

Also, having less government sounds good and all that, but you also should consider that part of the economic woes that we are facing right now are partly due to not enough government intervention and regulation.

In terms of the best candidate to bring CHANGE to Washington, it's a no-brainer. Of coourse it is Obama.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,127
48,193
136
Originally posted by: Zepper
There will be other Pres/VP candidates on enough ballots nationwide to have an outside chance, so your options aren't limited to Dumb and Dumber... If our political system was anywhere near rational, Obama would be on the Socialist line, McCain would be on the Democrat line, Romney would be on the Republican line, Paul would be on the Libertarian line and Nader would be on the Stalinist line (he's been an "ends justify the means"/"his way ore the highway" type since the Corvair debacle where he manufactured his statistics and I've never heard of his apologizing for any of his lies).
. So know what your politico/economic philosophy is and vote the principles that spring from it (this is the main responsibility of a free citizen) - you'll be able to sleep better on election night.
. There are really only two political philosophies - either individuals should be free to manage their own lives or not. Everything not the first is just some degree of the second. The USA is the only country where the citizens are really supposed to be free (a lot of socialism has crept in with the later waves of immigration) and supposed to be held responsible for their actions (the "natural law" concept). So if you are a true American, you should vote for the one who best reflects those principles. If you find that your favored philosophy is at odds with the American concept, then there is probably at least one other country which applies it, so go there! Trying to change our gov't to some other philosophy got us to the mess where we are now - which isn't as it was intended.
. The Federal gov't was originally designed so that the individual would hardly notice its existence. Generally, county govt was the highest level where issues involving individuals were to be decided so lots of schemes could be tried and either succeed and spread or fail without hurting too many people and an individual wouldn't have to move too far to find a preferable situation. If that had been retained, then most of our Fed. Gov't caused messes wouldn't have happened, from prohibition (alcohol and other drugs) to the great depression to the current fiasco in which we find ourselves enmeshed. One way to distinguish an "individual freedom/individual responsibility" politician is to know if their speech and actions are individual oriented or smacks of group-think (on ethnic, economic, religious, corporate or whatever grounds - it always breaks down to that group vs. this, them vs. us...).
. A cautionary tale: There is a radio talk show host named Neal Boortz who calls himself libertarian, but went against his principles and encouraged voting Republican in the last couple of Presidential elections and we mainly got more of the big federal gov't, higher taxes, lower privacy, valueless currency, and international meddling that libertarians stand against. Neither of the Dem. opponents to Bush could be considered a valid candidate to real Americans (Gore is certifiable, and Kerry is a war criminal (consorting with the enemy while still an active-duty Army officer - he should have been tried by military tribunal and executed on a two-holer along with Jane Fonda)) and had little true chance of winning. So Boortz gained nothing for betraying his principles and lost a degree of self-respect. Boortz's fortunes have declined substantially since then (particularly to libertarians, which he still claims to be) - the list of station outlets he claims for his show is way outdated (WHCU in Ithaca for sure no longer airs his show, so others are sure to be present but not accounted for...).
. The moral: analyze and choose your philosophy with its attendant set of principles carefully and well, and then stick by them. In that way people can have an idea where you stand and what to expect from you. If you choose wrong (disclosed by the consequences of applying incorrect principles), then learn from your mistakes and adjust it.

This sounds like a lot of effort, but freedom isn't free - this is just the down payment.

.bh.

This thread made it 3 pages before the crazies came out. Not bad at all!
 

Hugh H

Senior member
Jul 11, 2008
315
0
0
Originally posted by: mooseracing
Originally posted by: Cuda1447


As for Obama/Biden. Obama is obviously a very gifted speaker.

Just like Hitler, eh?


LOL

Your rationale is funny.

Hitler = good speaker

Obama = good speaker

Therefore, Hitler = Obama! WOW!
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Neither.

I refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils. I will either be voting 3rd party or writing someone in. You can say its a wasted vote but until enough people do the same we will be left with the same piss poor choices we have been given the last decade.
 

mooseracing

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
1,711
0
0
Originally posted by: Hugh H
Originally posted by: mooseracing
Originally posted by: Cuda1447


As for Obama/Biden. Obama is obviously a very gifted speaker.

Just like Hitler, eh?


LOL

Your rationale is funny.

Hitler = good speaker

Obama = good speaker

Therefore, Hitler = Obama! WOW!


Too bad you rationale is screwed. Under your thinking:

Steak = taste good

Beer = taste good

Therefore steak must just be another name for beer.





All I said is that his comment about Obama being an easy talker is just like everyone said about Hitler, you came to your own conclusions and opinions on the rest.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,127
48,193
136
Originally posted by: mooseracing

Too bad you rationale is screwed. Under your thinking:

Steak = taste good

Beer = taste good

Therefore steak must just be another name for beer.

All I said is that his comment about Obama being an easy talker is just like everyone said about Hitler, you came to your own conclusions and opinions on the rest.

You can't be serious.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Hugh H
Originally posted by: mooseracing
Originally posted by: Cuda1447


As for Obama/Biden. Obama is obviously a very gifted speaker.

Just like Hitler, eh?


LOL

Your rationale is funny.

Hitler = good speaker

Obama = good speaker

Therefore, Hitler = Obama! WOW!

lulz his point is don't vote for someone solely because he's a gifted speaker.

But no, he's more like Lenin.
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
Hey eskimospy,

Besides ad hominem, do you have a substantive comment?.. No, I ditn't [sic] think so. If you haven't seen/heard generally what I wrote before, then ponder the quality of your education at the gov't indoctrination camps/adolescent detention centers aka "public schools".

.bh.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Originally posted by: mooseracing
All I said is that his comment about Obama being an easy talker is just like everyone said about Hitler, you came to your own conclusions and opinions on the rest.

So you didn't mean to imply that Obama equals Hitler, merely that people offer the same compliments of Obama that they did of Hitler, and we should draw our own conclusions from that... I didn't think you needed to bother responding to Hugh since his logic was completely retarded, but you went ahead and did it anyway, and your logic is even more retarded than his.

"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Democracy just doesn't work."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,127
48,193
136
Originally posted by: Zepper
Hey eskimospy,

Besides ad hominem, do you have a substantive comment?.. No, I ditn't [sic] think so. If you haven't seen/heard generally what I wrote before, then ponder the quality of your education at the gov't indoctrination camps/adolescent detention centers aka "public schools".

.bh.

Yes, my substantive comment is that you're crazy. Anyone who thinks that John Kerry should be taken out and shot is severely mentally imbalanced. Seek professional help.

As for your stance on the public schools, I couldn't care less.
 

Hugh H

Senior member
Jul 11, 2008
315
0
0
Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy
Originally posted by: mooseracing
All I said is that his comment about Obama being an easy talker is just like everyone said about Hitler, you came to your own conclusions and opinions on the rest.

So you didn't mean to imply that Obama equals Hitler, merely that people offer the same compliments of Obama that they did of Hitler, and we should draw our own conclusions from that... I didn't think you needed to bother responding to Hugh since his logic was completely retarded, but you went ahead and did it anyway, and your logic is even more retarded than his.

"I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Democracy just doesn't work."

Well I did reach with my comment, I just wanted to point out that any comparison of Obama to Hitler based solely on the fact that they are good speakers is utterly ridiculous, which is what I believed he tried to do.

 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
85
91
Originally posted by: BAMAVOO
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Valid points. I'd be interested to hear why you are supporting a full on UHC. The way I see it is that the UHC costs will be passed onto the taxpayers. I'm a big proponent of people pulling their own weight. ( I have a bastard uncle who claims disability when he is fine and hasn't worked for 20 years, while us taxpayers pay for his beer and cigs.) I've mentioned this before, but I am a college student working around 30 hours a week and taking a full load of classes. Admittedly I'm a bit fortunate as I have a pretty decent job, but I still have taken responsibility for myself and have pretty solid health care.

The worry with UHC I have is that it will reward those that don't pull their weight. It will encourage people to abuse the health care system by going for every little cough and running nose. Those things cost money and its going to cost the tax payers. If people aren't paying for their own health care then they won't use discretion when choosing when to go. I also worry about the massive inefficiency of government run agencies, and would hate to see the health care system become even more inefficient than it already is. Not to mention I don't trust the government one bit, so I don't really want them to have more 'power' than they already have.


But as I've said before, I like to consider myself very open-minded. So I'd be curious to hear why you support a full UHC?

I support UHC generally because of the greater efficiencies. I think most people would agree that the purpose of a health care system is to get the most people healthy for the least amount of money. (in a very general sense) If you look at other countries that have implemented UHC they have levels of health for their population that either meet or exceed ours, and they do so for a fraction of the cost. I understand you are wary of paying for others' health care, but under our system you already do that and it's reflected in your health care premium. If you are ill, the hospital will treat you and if you can't pay... you don't. This cost gets passed on.

Interestingly enough I view people going to the doctor for every sniffle as a positive thing. (although I don't think people will as people hate the doctor) Many illnesses are extremely cheap to treat if treated in their early stages but become hideously expensive if left alone. A lot of cancers if detected early can be treated relatively simply and at moderate expense. A cancer case left alone can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more. If people went to the doctor when they started feeling bad as opposed to when they could barely walk, we could treat a lot of illnesses much sooner.

That's my two cents, I don't want to have a big UHC debate as I know there are other factors that contribute to a country's health, etc... but that's basically why I think the way I do. I'm not worried about freeloaders because they already exist. When I was in the military I worked full time and took 15 semester credits at the same time. I know what it's like to work my butt off and I'm not interested in giving free crap to anyone. I've just examined the options available and that seems like the best one to me.


I will disagree with this as I have seen people on TennCare abuse the system. They would go to the doctor with every sniffle, but when they were paying their own health care they wouldn't go, unless it was urgent. Why do you think people have to wait so long to have things done on UHC? It is because any and every ache is being seen about, with most of them they could stay home and take an aspirin and be done with it.


Don't forget to add that the Tennessee taxpayers get charged probably $200 so these people with the sniffles can get a free bottle of tylenol.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,127
48,193
136
Originally posted by: rudder
Originally posted by: BAMAVOO

I will disagree with this as I have seen people on TennCare abuse the system. They would go to the doctor with every sniffle, but when they were paying their own health care they wouldn't go, unless it was urgent. Why do you think people have to wait so long to have things done on UHC? It is because any and every ache is being seen about, with most of them they could stay home and take an aspirin and be done with it.


Don't forget to add that the Tennessee taxpayers get charged probably $200 so these people with the sniffles can get a free bottle of tylenol.

This is all speculation and anecdotal evidence against objective analysis of various health care systems done by the WHO and other research groups. Simply put: By nearly all reasonable analysis UHC gives more health to more people for less money than our system.
 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
1
0
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
I try to be open minded about stuff...

I'm also a conservative raised by conservatives, but after much reading, listening, watching, and consideration here's what I've arrived at:

1. The Republicans were in power for two terms during which our country sank to its lowest period of foreign influence, made one of its costliest military blunders (abandoning the "just war" for the wrong one), and experienced its worst financial decline since the Depression. Their ringleader during this time was possibly our most incompetent and/or dumbest president ever.

2. I have always respected John McCain, and at any other time in my life would have loved for him to be president. But he made a rash, reckless, and totally irresponsible decision by picking some small town hockey-mom church lady who has CLEARLY never even thought about most national/international issues, and CANNOT handle our relations with ex-KGB Darth Putin, Adolf Ahmadinejad, and Lil' Kim, to be VP. He is 72 and has a history of cancer, and at a time of war and economic crisis, saddles us with a younger, prettier Harriet Myers.

3. Therefore, I must vote against the Republicans out of sheer principle. At this point, its no longer about Obama or McCain. These people and their ilk (Bush, Cheney, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.) are NOT conservatives, and if they and those fat idiots with the star-spangled hats ranting "drill baby drill" at the convention are the Republican party, then I am not one of them, and I will vote against them! They cannot be allowed to lead us to utter ruin at home and abroad, and then put some 40-year old unknown mommie from the backwoods of our least populous state in charge of the enormous mess they have made of the world. They have been WRONG about everything else, and they are WRONG about this.

I think Republicans like Reagan, Colin Powell, etc., would agree with me, and I suspect even Bush the Elder does.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
How about this. Don't vote...

Your vote won't count, except for the warm fuzzy feeling that you did something.

If everyone voted electronically and error margin was less then 1% then maybe your vote would count. So don't get all stressed out about it.

I'd put money on that the error margin is close to 8-10%.

 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
vote 3rd party because the "least worst," two party system is stupid.

It's not if the 3rd parties are worse than the 2 majors. People rant on how bad the 2 party system is but if we had a 3rd major they'd complain those 3 suck and tell people to vote 4th party.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Obama is obviously a very gifted speaker. He has great "leadership" qualities I suppose.

In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden.
Twice you say that Obama has leadership qualities.

Would you care to give an example of Obama providing leadership on anything.

When I speak of leadership I speak in a general sense. For example, I would say Obama has shown the ability to inspire and earn trust/support. I think thats fairly obvious with his campaign. Likewise, I would say Hitler is a great leader. Not that I am comparing Hitler to Obama, but I am speaking about their capability (charm if you will) to inspire the masses to follow them. Its not the most important thing in the world, but I think in a time where a lot of the rest of the world has a negative opinion of the U.S. its not a bad idea to get a POTUS in office that might be able to earn some of that respect that, be it deserved or not.

IMO that is very important. For the past 8 years we've had the 'you're either with us or against us' attitude and people around the world are sick of it. We need friends and allies.