Help me decide who to vote for...

[Cuda1447]

I try to be open minded about stuff. I don't claim to be the smartest when it comes to politics or our candidates. I read P&N every day. I'd consider P&N to be a liberal source, for the most part. I listen to AM radio on my way to work in the mornings, its an obvious conservative biased station. I get the Rush crew and all those other guys. In the evening I try to watch CNN, which as I understand it is probably one of the least biased stations and MSNBC which is a liberal station. My point is I try to get everyones point of view about things.


My family is conservative, so obviously I got some of my beliefs from them. I am actually a registered voter as a democrat though. With that said, let me explain my quandry.


I acknowledge that Palin is probably a poor choice for VP. From what I have seen she isn't very intelligent, but I am interested to see her in the debate tonight. McCain seems to be a bit out of touch with modern issues. Of course at the same time intelligence isn't necessarily the most important thing to have in a leader, maybe good decision making is more important. If you surround yourself with experts on the issues and you can take in that info and make good decisions about it that's important.


As for Obama/Biden. Obama is obviously a very gifted speaker. He has great "leadership" qualities I suppose. He seems to be very intelligent and being a younger guy I think he's more apt to be in touch with some of the more modern issues. I think on Economy/Foreign relations and things like that McCain/Obama are both equally capable to make decisions. I am talking about technology related issues. Copyright laws, online gambling, things that aren't of major importance but an older POTUS probably wouldn't have the fundamental understanding to make good decisions on. Those are small issues though.

This country is clearer in a mess and I hate to say this but its obvious we need "change". Whether or not Obama or McCain will bring that needed change is debateable.

In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden. McCain/Palin def. fall short in that regard. Here's the problem though, my philosophical viewpoints are conservative in nature. A few things that Obama really wants I am completely against. National Healthcare for instance. I am completely against that. I think its widely accepted that Dem's are for MORE government while Rep's are for less. I think the gov. should be MUCH smaller than it is. Also, Dem's are generally considered to be in favor of higher taxes while Rep's are in favor of lower taxes. Again, another thing I am agreeing with the Rep's about.

Now I realize that what the Rep's say they stand for and what they do are often two completely different things. Rep's say they are fiscally conservative, but everything points elsewhere. They say they are for smaller gov. but they constantly increase the size of gov. and how inefficient it is. They say they are for smaller taxes, but they only give it to big business.

On the other hand, Dem's are for none of that. So do I vote for the people who pretend they want what I want, or do I vote for the people that just flat tell me they are against what I want?


For what its worth, I think Obama would be better on economic issues, foreign policy (to a certain extent) and other key issues. But he just has some things that he wants that I am totally against. I could go on and on about my thoughts/feelings, but I guess I'm just looking for responses from some of the more politically savvy people no this board that can maybe take all this SPIN that I see all the time I help me make some sense of it. Unfortunately every news source spins the shit out of everything so its difficult to make sense of the shit and the important info.

 

[winnar111]

Coin toss.

 

[Red Dawn]

Well how about this, vote for Obama and hope in 4 years the Republicans actually nominate a worthy candidate that has your confidence and shares your values.

 

[polarmystery]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Coin toss.

this

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Well how about this, vote for Obama and hope in 4 years the Republicans actually nominate a worthy candidate that has your confidence and shares your values.

Could work, but I don't want to run the chance of getting an even bigger government that moves toward socialist philosophies, endorses affirmative action (welfare and other) and wants to bring universal health care to the US. The UHC is one of the big things, because I know Obama REALLY wants this and I am REALLY against this.

 

[frostedflakes]

Vote libertarian?

 

[IronWing]

Vote your own personal self interest. Put aside all ideological arguments that have been tossed around concerning the issues. What is in it for you? The various constituencies have their lobbyists with big bags of money looking out for their interests so use your vote to look out for yours. One candidate says X about taxes, the other Y. Will X or Y benefit you more where ever it is that you currently place on the economic scale. Repeat for each type of policy. Factor in the odds of any proposed policies ever making it into law.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Well how about this, vote for Obama and hope in 4 years the Republicans actually nominate a worthy candidate that has your confidence and shares your values.

Could work, but I don't want to run the chance of getting an even bigger government that moves toward socialist philosophies, endorses affirmative action (welfare and other) and wants to bring universal health care to the US. The UHC is one of the big things, because I know Obama REALLY wants this and I am REALLY against this.

Are you sure? I thought he just wanted to reform Health Care, besides with the economy as it is I doubt they'll even be discussing it until things are in order which could take up most of his first term

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden. McCain/Palin def. fall short in that regard. Here's the problem though, my philosophical viewpoints are conservative in nature. A few things that Obama really wants I am completely against. National Healthcare for instance. I am completely against that. I think its widely accepted that Dem's are for MORE government while Rep's are for less. I think the gov. should be MUCH smaller than it is. Also, Dem's are generally considered to be in favor of higher taxes while Rep's are in favor of lower taxes. Again, another thing I am agreeing with the Rep's about.

Now I realize that what the Rep's say they stand for and what they do are often two completely different things. Rep's say they are fiscally conservative, but everything points elsewhere. They say they are for smaller gov. but they constantly increase the size of gov. and how inefficient it is. They say they are for smaller taxes, but they only give it to big business.

On the other hand, Dem's are for none of that. So do I vote for the people who pretend they want what I want, or do I vote for the people that just flat tell me they are against what I want?

Well, you hit the nail on the head when you said that although Republicans claim to be for smaller government, reduced taxes and reduced spending (and classical Republicans are still for this), the last 8 years has seen government vastly increased in size, combined with massive increases in spending and debt spiraling out of control. So clearly there is a disconnect between what Republicans say they will give you and what they actually will give you. Considering that John McCain voted with the Republican majority most of the time this was going on, it would be ludicrous to expect that he is an agent of change.

Obama supports National Health Care, and though I imagine that sort of bill would not make it through the legislature, it is a valid concern (if you oppose it). On the tax issue, a graph I saw recently (and I don't remember the source, but it was linked from P&N, so maybe someone still has it) showed that Obama's tax plans help out most Americans while McCain's tax plans reduces taxes on the rich. If you make under 6 figures, you will pay less in taxes under Obama than McCain. I don't know your financial state, but that's something to consider.

You could also vote third party, but you'd have to resign yourself to knowing that you were voting for someone who would not win. Which you may end up doing anyway if you live in a state that is already heavily leaning one way (your profile says FL, which is a solid battleground state, not sure if you still live there).

Maybe you could make a pro/con list of the candidates as you see them, or a list of qualities that are important to you with the candidate who best represents you for each issue, then add it all up. Ultimately, I wouldn't trust anyone who simply told you how to vote; it needs to be on you to decide who would best serve your interests (and a little research is never a bad thing; an informed voting populace is a good thing to have, no?).

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Well how about this, vote for Obama and hope in 4 years the Republicans actually nominate a worthy candidate that has your confidence and shares your values.

Could work, but I don't want to run the chance of getting an even bigger government that moves toward socialist philosophies, endorses affirmative action (welfare and other) and wants to bring universal health care to the US. The UHC is one of the big things, because I know Obama REALLY wants this and I am REALLY against this.

Are you sure? I thought he just wanted to reform Health Care, besides with the economy as it is I doubt they'll even be discussing it until things are in order which could take up most of his first term

I could be wrong. I remember reading an article in Rolling Stone about an interview with Obama. He said one of the things he wanted to do before the end of his first term was something along the lines of UHC. I could be wrong as to the specifics.

Good point about it not even getting discussed with the state of the economy though. It may be a non-issue at this point.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Well how about this, vote for Obama and hope in 4 years the Republicans actually nominate a worthy candidate that has your confidence and shares your values.

Could work, but I don't want to run the chance of getting an even bigger government that moves toward socialist philosophies, endorses affirmative action (welfare and other) and wants to bring universal health care to the US. The UHC is one of the big things, because I know Obama REALLY wants this and I am REALLY against this.

With Obama we will most likely have a form of expanded government subsidized health care. Unfortunately, what he is proposing is not true UHC. (much to my dismay) That's actually the one thing that made me think about supporting McCain, instead of getting Obama's bastardized UHC we could let our current system continue to implode under McCain and then actually get UHC 4 or 8 years down the road.

Think about that though, a vote for Obama might actually leave you with a somewhat privatized health care industry in the long run. A form of socialized health care is coming to America no matter what, it just is a matter of when as our current system is on the road to collapse. So really, accepting a moderately socialized option with Obama might be the best deal you can get. Something to think about at least.

As for growth of government, etc. I'm sorry but the Republicans are no better than the Democrats, and if I remember over the last 20-30 years have actually been significantly worse. They just tend to grow government in different areas. While Democrats might give you higher taxes, Republicans just give you higher debts... which are a tax too. They just hide it better.

Just my two cents I guess.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Atomic Playboy

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden. McCain/Palin def. fall short in that regard. Here's the problem though, my philosophical viewpoints are conservative in nature. A few things that Obama really wants I am completely against. National Healthcare for instance. I am completely against that. I think its widely accepted that Dem's are for MORE government while Rep's are for less. I think the gov. should be MUCH smaller than it is. Also, Dem's are generally considered to be in favor of higher taxes while Rep's are in favor of lower taxes. Again, another thing I am agreeing with the Rep's about.

Now I realize that what the Rep's say they stand for and what they do are often two completely different things. Rep's say they are fiscally conservative, but everything points elsewhere. They say they are for smaller gov. but they constantly increase the size of gov. and how inefficient it is. They say they are for smaller taxes, but they only give it to big business.

On the other hand, Dem's are for none of that. So do I vote for the people who pretend they want what I want, or do I vote for the people that just flat tell me they are against what I want?

Well, you hit the nail on the head when you said that although Republicans claim to be for smaller government, reduced taxes and reduced spending (and classical Republicans are still for this), the last 8 years has seen government vastly increased in size, combined with massive increases in spending and debt spiraling out of control. So clearly there is a disconnect between what Republicans say they will give you and what they actually will give you. Considering that John McCain voted with the Republican majority most of the time this was going on, it would be ludicrous to expect that he is an agent of change.

Obama supports National Health Care, and though I imagine that sort of bill would not make it through the legislature, it is a valid concern (if you oppose it). On the tax issue, a graph I saw recently (and I don't remember the source, but it was linked from P&N, so maybe someone still has it) showed that Obama's tax plans help out most Americans while McCain's tax plans reduces taxes on the rich. If you make under 6 figures, you will pay less in taxes under Obama than McCain. I don't know your financial state, but that's something to consider.

You could also vote third party, but you'd have to resign yourself to knowing that you were voting for someone who would not win. Which you may end up doing anyway if you live in a state that is already heavily leaning one way (your profile says FL, which is a solid battleground state, not sure if you still live there).

Maybe you could make a pro/con list of the candidates as you see them, or a list of qualities that are important to you with the candidate who best represents you for each issue, then add it all up. Ultimately, I wouldn't trust anyone who simply told you how to vote; it needs to be on you to decide who would best serve your interests (and a little research is never a bad thing; an informed voting populace is a good thing to have, no?).

Good info.


I don't want anyone to tell me how to vote, far from it. I guess I'm just trying to find better sources to become well informed. I think I am disgusted by the media biases on both sides. I listen to rush in the mornings and although I agree with some of his statements, his arrogance, sarcasm and straight bias just kills anything he says for me. Especially the fucking sarcasm. I can't stand people who try to prove points by being sarcastic.

Yes, I still live in FL. Unlike a lot of places in this country, I can say that my vote counts more than most, which in the grand scheme of things is very little. (I suppose the anti-federalists were on to something some 200 years ago).

As for the republicans over-spending could it be that was just because of the set of circumstances we were given. 9/11 certainly put us on the road we are on now. Granted, the administration could have made more quality decisions, a lot more... but at the same time hindsight is 20/20.

 

[SP33Demon]

Write in Ron Paul. Sure, some of his policies are radical and may not be the best solution but overall he has the best ideas and will be the biggest catalyst for "change".

 

[SpunkyJones]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Coin toss.

I'm probably going to use this option.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Well how about this, vote for Obama and hope in 4 years the Republicans actually nominate a worthy candidate that has your confidence and shares your values.

Could work, but I don't want to run the chance of getting an even bigger government that moves toward socialist philosophies, endorses affirmative action (welfare and other) and wants to bring universal health care to the US. The UHC is one of the big things, because I know Obama REALLY wants this and I am REALLY against this.

With Obama we will most likely have a form of expanded government subsidized health care. Unfortunately, what he is proposing is not true UHC. (much to my dismay) That's actually the one thing that made me think about supporting McCain, instead of getting Obama's bastardized UHC we could let our current system continue to implode under McCain and then actually get UHC 4 or 8 years down the road.

Think about that though, a vote for Obama might actually leave you with a somewhat privatized health care industry in the long run. A form of socialized health care is coming to America no matter what, it just is a matter of when as our current system is on the road to collapse. So really, accepting a moderately socialized option with Obama might be the best deal you can get. Something to think about at least.

As for growth of government, etc. I'm sorry but the Republicans are no better than the Democrats, and if I remember over the last 20-30 years have actually been significantly worse. They just tend to grow government in different areas. While Democrats might give you higher taxes, Republicans just give you higher debts... which are a tax too. They just hide it better.

Just my two cents I guess.

Valid points. I'd be interested to hear why you are supporting a full on UHC. The way I see it is that the UHC costs will be passed onto the taxpayers. I'm a big proponent of people pulling their own weight. ( I have a bastard uncle who claims disability when he is fine and hasn't worked for 20 years, while us taxpayers pay for his beer and cigs.) I've mentioned this before, but I am a college student working around 30 hours a week and taking a full load of classes. Admittedly I'm a bit fortunate as I have a pretty decent job, but I still have taken responsibility for myself and have pretty solid health care.

The worry with UHC I have is that it will reward those that don't pull their weight. It will encourage people to abuse the health care system by going for every little cough and running nose. Those things cost money and its going to cost the tax payers. If people aren't paying for their own health care then they won't use discretion when choosing when to go. I also worry about the massive inefficiency of government run agencies, and would hate to see the health care system become even more inefficient than it already is. Not to mention I don't trust the government one bit, so I don't really want them to have more 'power' than they already have.


But as I've said before, I like to consider myself very open-minded. So I'd be curious to hear why you support a full UHC?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447
In terms of pure decision making and leadership capabilities I give the nod to Obama/Biden. McCain/Palin def. fall short in that regard. Here's the problem though, my philosophical viewpoints are conservative in nature. A few things that Obama really wants I am completely against. National Healthcare for instance. I am completely against that.

Why do you hate the health of the American people?

Why not get rid of the burden on business to deal with healthcare, and the huge inefficiences of the current system with huge profits for an insurance industry that's part of the same Wall Street setup that gave you the current mortgage and financial crises, and actually act like someone who gives a crap about the poor getting healthcare?

If you don't give a crap then atop reading this post as I'd rather not know you.

I think its widely accepted that Dem's are for MORE government while Rep's are for less. I think the gov. should be MUCH smaller than it is. Also, Dem's are generally considered to be in favor of higher taxes while Rep's are in favor of lower taxes. Again, another thing I am agreeing with the Rep's about.

Now I realize that what the Rep's say they stand for and what they do are often two completely different things. Rep's say they are fiscally conservative, but everything points elsewhere. They say they are for smaller gov. but they constantly increase the size of gov. and how inefficient it is. They say they are for smaller taxes, but they only give it to big business.

On the other hand, Dem's are for none of that. So do I vote for the people who pretend they want what I want, or do I vote for the people that just flat tell me they are against what I want?

*Everyone* is 'for smaller government' and doesn't like taxes. You are a victim of the propaganda of Republicans who tell the people like you, who are admittedly 'casual followers' of politics, what you like to hear to snag you into voting for them. You at least do recognize in your post that you have noticed much the difference between the propaganda and the actual policies, as shown in every modern Republican presidency but especially George Bush, but you still fall for the demonization of democrats.

The simple fact is that the Democrats are the party of fiscal responsibility, in terms of borrowing/debt, since Reagan at least led Republicans to the political benefits of letting the next generation pay for prosperity. "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that baby behind the tree, and his children, and theirs."

*Republicans don't give you lower taxes*.

First, they don't do it at all in the long term - they are *borrowing*, that means paying the same taxes they 'cut' plus decades of interest, often to foreign nations. Second, the taxes they *do* in the short term cut are not yours (except a token amount to let them use catchy phrases about 'everyone's taxes), but disproportionately the taxes of the very wealthy.

*You need to understand*, for the first time in American history the rising tide does not lift all boats - all the economy's gains after inflation the last 25 years have gone to the top 20%. It's not that the nation hasn't seen increasesin productivity - they have, but they all go right to the top (I say the top 20% because there are tiny gains there, but it goes *far more* to the top fraction of 1% than to the lower part of the top 20%. The top 0.01% have gone up *hundreds of percent* in income.)

For what its worth, I think Obama would be better on economic issues, foreign policy (to a certain extent) and other key issues. But he just has some things that he wants that I am totally against. I could go on and on about my thoughts/feelings, but I guess I'm just looking for responses from some of the more politically savvy people no this board that can maybe take all this SPIN that I see all the time I help me make some sense of it. Unfortunately every news source spins the shit out of everything so its difficult to make sense of the shit and the important info.

My advice to you is that you cannot get the info you need from the sources you listed. To get the info, you just need to read books. No cable channel, no newspaper, can do it.

I can list all kinds of books for you, if you wanted. If you want one off the top of my head, Thomas Frank's "The Wrecking Crew" looks great for exposing the Republicans.

For a 'small government conservative' like you , you might benefit from conservative John Dean's book, ilink, that he was planning to write with Barry Goldwater (who said that his political phislophy would be called 'liberal' later).

James Carville's "Had Enough?" From a few years back does nicely at being a short readable summary of why a lot of the liberal positions are correct.

The Recent book by Paul Krugman 'The Conscience of a LIberal' probably does too. Let me know if you want other titles, and areas of interest.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: Cuda1447

As for the republicans over-spending could it be that was just because of the set of circumstances we were given. 9/11 certainly put us on the road we are on now. Granted, the administration could have made more quality decisions, a lot more... but at the same time hindsight is 20/20.

9/11 really doesn't excuse much. The attack was an atrocity but the direct economic impacts of the attack were on the scale of a minor hurricane. The resulting trillions in government spending were the result of the decsions taken by the administration and Congress (five years under Republican control and two under Democratic control) who saw an opportunity to spend under the banner of "national security".

 

[StageLeft]

Obama. In your heart you know you should, but you're paralyzed to a degree with some doubt and fear about what's been stirred by his opposition. It is fallacious. Do the right thing this time.

 

[Pacemaker]

Originally posted by: winnar111
Coin toss.

this

 

[Moonbeam]

The Republicans have been in power for 8 years and in those eight years they have crapped in the American toilet so badly that it is now plugged. I don't understand people who don't see a need for a flush.

 

[JS80]

Just don't vote. Unless you care what Leo DiCaprio will think about you.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The Republicans have been in power for 8 years and in those eight years they have crapped in the American toilet so badly that it is now plugged. I don't understand people who don't see a need for a flush.

A lot of people in this thread have given very helpful replies, respected opinions on personal viewpoints (while still challenging them which is fine) and given their viewpoints based on facts and knowledge.

You have said nothing of substance. Not that I agree with this, but it could be argued (and is all the time) that the Dem's controlling the majority right now (and for the last few years) that they are to blame for the recent problems. It can also be argued that our housing market criss is due to policies left over from previous POTUS's (Clinton). Again, I don't agree with these things, but my point is that rather than sweeping generalizations and little poetic states such as "crapped in the toilet, plugged, needs flush" why don't you talk about something with substance.







Skoorb - For what its worth, I respect your opinion a great deal. I always go out of my way to read what you type because you seem to share a lot of viewpoints I have and can look at things in a non-biased way. You seem to have a really good head on your shoulders and I appreciate your posts.

 

[jpeyton]

Read about John McCain's record on the issues.

 

[cKGunslinger]

If, for some reason, you can't following this advice:

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Write in Ron Paul. Sure, some of his policies are radical and may not be the best solution but overall he has the best ideas and will be the biggest catalyst for "change".

then this is a viable alternative:

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Obama. In your heart you know you should, but you're paralyzed to a degree with some doubt and fear about what's been stirred by his opposition. It is fallacious. Do the right thing this time.

 

[MattCo]

This has to be one of the calmest, non-attacking, well thought out P&N discussions I have ever seen on AT. Except for a few, everyone has refrained from mudslinging and have offered ideas instead of negativity.

Lets see if the thread continues that way (doubtful)