Help me build a better air cooling system

[v0id]

My box has been having some stability issues while playing games for a while; after a lot of talk with AT people I figured out that it was probably the insufficiently cooled VRMs/memory on one of my two 4850s that was causing the system freezes. Right now I have the case open and have a desk fan pointing at the GPUs, which has stopped the freezes but isn't really a long term solution.

I've been told that some VRM/memory heatsinks like these along with some thermal adhesive like this is the solution to my immediate problem. I was going to just order those products, doctor up the offending 4850, and call it a day, but it occurred to me that this might be an opportune time to revamp my case and CPU cooling as well. I have read some threads here and elsewhere on case fans and system cooling, I'm pretty much a noob at this stuff, so I was hoping you all could help me out. Any help is much appreciated! Warning, this post might be kind of long.

Current Setup:

LIAN LI PC-7B Plus II case
Silverstone ST50EF-Plus 500W PSU
ASUS M4A78T-E mainboard
AMD Phenom II X3 720 BE CPU - not OC'ed right now
Scythe MUGEN-2 SCMG-2000 CPU cooler
2x2 GB G. Skill DDR3 1333 SDRAM
2x Radeon 4850 512MB GPUs (this one and this one)
D-Link wireless NIC
1TB WD Caviar Black HDD
320GB Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 HDD
Samsung DVD burner

The PC-7B case has a 120x25mm intake fan at the bottom front of the case, and a 120x25mm exhaust fan mounted above the I/O panel. Both are Lian-Li branded and came pre-installed. I have another 120x25mm fan mounted to the Mugen II cooler blowing across the cooler towards the back exhaust man. This fan is Scythe branded and came with the Mugen II.

With the case closed the CPU idles around 33-34C and goes up to about 40C at load. I don't have idle GPU temps handy but with the case closed the GPUs go up to about 70C at load and the memory goes up to 73-79C depending on the card.

Here's a picture of the inside of the case:

The case has a fairly large vent on the side panel directly over the expansion slots. There do not appear to pre-drilled fan mounting holes in/near the vent but I'm sure you could attach a fan somehow. There is also a vent on the top of the case with mounting holes for an 80mm fan.

The case sits under my desk on the carpet with the exhaust fan unobstructed. It's probably not the best place for it but I'm not moving it any time soon. Together, the CPU/GPU/case fans aren't too loud but I can definitely hear them.

Lastly, I have another Scythe branded 120x25mm fan hanging around from the purchase of a previous CPU cooler.

What I'm thinking about doing:

-Purchase and install VRM/memory heatsinks for the 4850 that's having problems
-Replace the CPU fan with a better/quieter fan, or 2 in push/pull configuration
-Replace the intake/exhaust fans with better/quieter fans, if it would help.
-Install new fans on the side and top panels, if they would help.
-Crank up the 720BE a good bit

My main goals are to have a quiet (not silent) system and to be able to bump up the 720BE as far as it will go. And the 4850s too, if they'll OC at all.

People seem to have differing opinions on which company makes decent fans, I've looked at a few different brands. GentleTyphoons seem to get a lot of good rep but are expensive. I hear that Yate Loons are good and cheap. I wouldn't necessarily mind spending $50 or a little more on this project but of course cheaper is better as long as the results are reasonably similar. I'll probably avoid the most expensive, boutique-y options.

Suggestions:

What do you all think? Is it worth it to replace or upgrade the current fan setup? If I do, can you help me figure out where I should install which fans for optimal airflow/temps?

Thanks.

 

[WoodButcher]

I've been told that some VRM/memory heatsinks like these along with some thermal adhesive like this is the solution to my immediate problem. I was going to just order those products, doctor up the offending 4850, and call it a day, but it occurred to me that this might be an opportune time to revamp my case and CPU cooling as well.

Use Enzotechs like these They are copper and will remove heat better, I've used them and the tape works fine. Clean the surfaces w/ iso alcohol first. On the egg search Enzotech and you should find the appropriate sizes for your chips.



The PC-7B case has a 120x25mm intake fan at the bottom front of the case,

Replace this with the Scythe fan you have unused, (intake) it will make more noise than the Lian Li, put the LL from the front on the side panel by the vid cards, also intake. If you put the Scythe fan on the side it will most likely make more noise and rattle the side panel.
and a 120x25mm exhaust fan mounted above the I/O panel. Both are Lian-Li branded and came pre-installed. I have another 120x25mm fan mounted to the Mugen II cooler blowing across the cooler towards the back exhaust man. This fan is Scythe branded and came with the Mugen II.


The case has a fairly large vent on the side panel directly over the expansion slots. There do not appear to pre-drilled fan mounting holes in/near the vent but I'm sure you could attach a fan somehow.

Match the fan to the holes, I'll bet it will bolt right on but if not a couple dabs of hot glue or silicone on the corners will do the trick. Don't go crazy, you may want to remove it sometime.

There is also a vent on the top of the case with mounting holes for an 80mm fan.

Leave this alone, if you mount a fan here it will make more noise than it's worth.



Lastly, I have another Scythe branded 120x25mm fan hanging around from the purchase of a previous CPU cooler.

Use it!!!

What I'm thinking about doing:

-Purchase and install VRM/memory heatsinks for the 4850 that's having problems copper!
-Replace the CPU fan with a better/quieter fan, or 2 in push/pull configuration
your rear fan does the pull of the push / pull already and the space between helps cool your board mofsets, more copper heatsinks here always helps.
-Replace the intake/exhaust fans with better/quieter fans, if it would help.
your fans are good, the LL are like low speed yates and the scythe are better.
-Install new fans on the side
-Crank up the 720BE a good bit
you shold have no problems with that

25 or 30 dollars in heatsinks and you'll be set. Stick with copper, buy the appropriate sizes. The 3M thermal tape that comes with them works fine. I have thermal paste / epoxy and almost never use it. 50% of the schmucks that review on the egg built one PC and think it's the "Murderbox" 50% are clueless, and the other 50% don't review at all,,,,,:whiste:


😱😱

 

[nyker96]

i like Yate Loons very quiet and pushes good amount of airs cheap too. but for gpus i think accelero v2 that supports 4850 is a good bet, that cool much better than stock but 2x is not going to be cheap.

another option is getting a new case like haf 922/932 depending on budget these cases can drop a good 10C from a regular case that's not designed for air flow. so you have some options. or just open case it for now.

yet another option is get a huge 200mm fan and either mod it into your side panel if you can do modding or just stick it where the two cards are now and open case it. should cool them down quite a bit.

personally I'd consider getting a haf case.

 

[v0id]

accelero v2 that supports 4850 is a good bet, that cool much better than stock but 2x is not going to be cheap.

I was led to understand that the Accelero is pretty wide (2-3 slots) so those will definitely not fit on either card in this setup due to lack of space.

another option is getting a new case like haf 922/932 depending on budget

Not buying a new case. See ~$50 price limit.

or just open case it for now.

I'd prefer not to do this for much longer.

yet another option is get a huge 200mm fan and either mod it into your side panel

I wouldn't be opposed to this if I could mount the fan to the existing vent holes. I'm not interested in modding the case.

 

[deimos3428]

Your CPU temps are really low, so instead of more total airflow you might just need to redirect some of it at the 4850s.

To make sure the Mugen's fan isn't grabbing all the cool air from the intake, try temporarily installing your spare fan directly in front of the 4850s to force some around/between them. (Don't worry about making it pretty, this is just a test. Zip tie it or leave it free-standing, then shut the case and check all your temps.)

Your CPU temps will probably take a small hit, but if it means you're stable and can shut the case it's probably worth it.

 

[BadOmen]

If the problem is only when gaming, and gaming is not your top priority, perhaps there's no need for so much. I once solved it with a Zalman bracket, a 120mm fan on it pointing at gpu/NB and plugged to a fan controller.

 

[Zap]

The 3M thermal tape that comes with them works fine.
...
50% of the schmucks that review on the egg built one PC and think it's the "Murderbox" 50% are clueless, and the other 50% don't review at all,,,,,:whiste:

Thermal tape works well as long as it is applied to a very CLEAN surface.

So, 50% + 50% + 50%... The extra 50% must be all the Newegg reviews from people who don't own the product. :hmm:

try temporarily installing your spare fan directly in front of the 4850s to force some around/between them. (Don't worry about making it pretty, this is just a test. Zip tie it or leave it free-standing, then shut the case and check all your temps.)

This was what I was going to suggest. Since you don't have a side window in your case, don't even worry about what it looks like. Just somehow affix the fan close to the cards and pusing air directly onto them, and that will likely fix any heat problems.

 

[v0id]

Thermal tape works well as long as it is applied to a very CLEAN surface.

OK, I'll buy the heatsinks but not worry about the thermal adhesive goop. I'm familiar with cleaning my CPU with rubbing alcohol and coffee filters so I'll be sure to do that on the memory chips/VRMs before applying the tape.

Just somehow affix the fan close to the cards and pushing air directly onto them, and that will likely fix any heat problems.

Just so I'm clear, are you saying I should affix the fan to the side panel vent like others have suggested, blowing air across the cards towards the mainboard? I'm not sure how I would set up the fan otherwise - I guess I could strap it on to the back of the cards somehow where the PCI-E power connectors are but that would probably interfere with the airflow coming from the front intake fan.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

 

[Zap]

Just so I'm clear, are you saying I should affix the fan to the side panel vent like others have suggested, blowing air across the cards towards the mainboard? I'm not sure how I would set up the fan otherwise - I guess I could strap it on to the back of the cards somehow where the PCI-E power connectors are but that would probably interfere with the airflow coming from the front intake fan.

I am saying shove the fan between the graphics card and the empty HDD bays, with the direction of the airflow matching the front fan. There would be no interference with the front fan (they would be in essence helping each other). You just have to set it up in a way such that it stays in place and not have your PCIe power cables poke into it.

 

[v0id]

I am saying shove the fan between the graphics card and the empty HDD bays, with the direction of the airflow matching the front fan. There would be no interference with the front fan (they would be in essence helping each other). You just have to set it up in a way such that it stays in place and not have your PCIe power cables poke into it.

Great, thanks. I'll figure something out when I get home.

 

[klocwerk]

Great, thanks. I'll figure something out when I get home.

If you wanna get creative, pop a blowhole in the case right above the gfx cards. It's a deadspot in your current airflow. Test with intake and exhaust, keep whichever's cooler.
The RAM might be tricky though, not something I've ever had to deal with...

 

[v0id]

If you wanna get creative, pop a blowhole in the case right above the gfx cards. It's a deadspot in your current airflow. Test with intake and exhaust, keep whichever's cooler.
The RAM might be tricky though, not something I've ever had to deal with...

I found an old thread on XS that talks about a Lian-Li fan bracket for the side panel of my case, which they used to make and maybe still do - see here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99335

One of the commenters posts a link to an online shop called Performance-PCs that allegedly sells the fan bracket. Unfortunately the site seems to be down completely at the moment. The site is still the first Google result for Performance PCs so I'm hoping they're still around and just having an outage right now. I can't find any other information about this fan bracket elsewhere, even on Lian-Li's website.

 

[WoodButcher]

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=4620

But why? for the bracket? You already have a Scythe fan that will do the same if not better.

 

[v0id]

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...oducts_id=4620

But why? for the bracket? You already have a Scythe fan that will do the same if not better.

I figured the bracket would just be an extremely easy and secure way to attach the fan to the side panel, but I'm sure it would also be fine if I just got some of those fan mount doodads and attached the scythe fan directly to the side vent.

 

[nitromullet]

I actually have that same case (secondary rig now), and set up properly it has terrific air cooling capacity.

First thing you do is pick up that side bracket. You're right that you could just mount a fan to the side panel, but that the bracket is a much tidier and very easy to work with solution. Of course, it is more expensive.

Second thing you do is get rid of the drive cage from the bottom (just unscrew it and keep in a safe place). You keep the front fan as an intake, and the let the side fan exhaust. Not only will this maximize your airflow, but it will make it so you can fit whatever video card you want to in your case without worrying about clearance.

If your card still overheats with a 120mm fan blowing cool air on one side and another drawing hot air away on the other, it's just a poorly designed card and probably needs to be replaced. I ran dual 8800GTXes in this case with the setup I recommend here with no issues, and those cards were HOT! There is no reason for 4850s to be overheating.

I also grabbed one of these for the HDs. The nice thing about this is that it has rubber mounts for the HDs, so it cuts down on vibration which is one of the downsides of an all aluminum case. Plus, it also has another intake fan.

 

[v0id]

First thing you do is pick up that side bracket. You're right that you could just mount a fan to the side panel, but that the bracket is a much tidier and very easy to work with solution. Of course, it is more expensive.

I think I'll go ahead and do this. The Performance-PCs website is back up now, they have it, and $18 isn't too bad.

Second thing you do is get rid of the drive cage from the bottom (just unscrew it and keep in a safe place). You keep the front fan as an intake, and the let the side fan exhaust. Not only will this maximize your airflow, but it will make it so you can fit whatever video card you want to in your case without worrying about clearance.

Yeah I figured a side fan should probably be set to exhaust. Question: how did you get rid of the drive cage? Just looking at it, at least one side appears to be riveted to the bottom of the case. Did you drill that out?

If your card still overheats with a 120mm fan blowing cool air on one side and another drawing hot air away on the other, it's just a poorly designed card and probably needs to be replaced. I ran dual 8800GTXes in this case with the setup I recommend here with no issues, and those cards were HOT! There is no reason for 4850s to be overheating.

Yeah I have no doubt that the MSI 4850 could have used some additional heatsinks from the factory. Oh well, that's one of the things I'll need to fix. I'm sure once I get the new setup in place it'll run much cooler.

I also grabbed one of these for the HDs. The nice thing about this is that it has rubber mounts for the HDs, so it cuts down on vibration which is one of the downsides of an all aluminum case. Plus, it also has another intake fan.

Hmm. I will look into this. It's a little pricey, but in addition to cooling the HDDs it would solve another problem that has come up for me. When I moved the HDDs from the bottom drive cage to the one that hangs under the 5.25" bays, I noticed that the screw holes on the drives and the bay lined up in such a way that the drives could only be mounted by removing the 3.5" bay bezels. This is not an ideal solution. Seems like the product you pointed to might solve this problem.

 

[nitromullet]

Yeah I figured a side fan should probably be set to exhaust. Question: how did you get rid of the drive cage? Just looking at it, at least one side appears to be riveted to the bottom of the case. Did you drill that out?

I didn't drill mine out. IIRC, the cage is attached with screws on one side, and then it slides into a little sleeve on the other. Once you remove the screws (from the bottom) it should come right out. I think it's designed to be removed because it would be quite a pain to mount the HDs in it while it's in the case.

 

[v0id]

OK, I just ordered the Enzotech copper VGA heatsinks recommended earlier in the thread, the Lian-Li side panel fan/bracket, and, because it was totally unnecessary, 3x GentleTyphoon 1850rpm fans to replace current intake, exhaust, and CPU cooler fans. Ended up being a fair bit more than $50 but that's alright.

Thanks everybody! Hopefully after it's set up I'll never have any cooling problems EVER AGAIN.

 

[v0id]

OK, I got the Lian-Li side bracket fan and GentleTyphoons (1850 RPM) in the mail. I set up the GTs as front intake, rear exhaust, and CPU fan, and the side fan bracket to exhaust. I'm running Prime95 right now and the CPU is only at 32C. That's like a 10 degree drop! The GPUs are idling at ~35 right now; I'll have to see how high they go under load now that there's an exhaust fan right on top of them.

I have another question about GPU cooling, though - maybe one of you can help me. At the advice of WoodButcher upthread I picked up some Enzotech VGA heatsinks to install on my MSI Radeon 4850 that was having cooling problems. I am trying to figure out where to stick them, exactly. It's possible that I didn't get the best solution for my card but they are what I have at this point so I'm going to try and make them work. The individual heatsinks are exactly the size of one of the chokes in the below pictures (14mm x 14mm). I don't know if its the chokes that need cooling or the smaller packaged chips to their right (the VRMs?). It might be kind of tricky to install the heatsinks directly on what I think are the VRMs due to tight spacing around the caps.

Here's a picture of the front of the card:

Here's a picture of the back of the card:

Here's a picture of the heatsinks:

Anybody got any tips?

 

[klocwerk]

Here's a picture of the heatsinks:

Anybody got any tips?

I think your memory chips are underneath that large round heatsink in the middle... I can just see one peeking out in the lower right. 😀

 

[v0id]

I think your memory chips are underneath that large round heatsink in the middle... I can just see one peeking out in the lower right. 😀

The VRAM is indeed pretty much completely covered by the GPU heatsink/fan. Which is good! I'm not too worried about the VRAM at the moment. I'm trying to help cool the power management components on the right side of the board which I understand get quite hot. I don't know what they do exactly, but I've learned that the larger gray boxes are called 'chokes' and the smaller packaged chips to their right are probably the voltage regulator modules (VRMs). The heatsinks are pretty much exactly the same size as the chokes, so if it would help to apply the heatsinks to the chokes then great. If it's the VRMs that really need cooling, I may need to bust out the hacksaw and trim the heatsinks down, or just pony up the cash for a different set of heatsinks (these ones from Scythe?). If it doesn't matter whether the heatsinks touch the capacitors, I guess I could stick the heatsinks I have on the VRMs without cutting them down to size, but I would be a little worried about melting the caps or something.

Any further advice is appreciated.

EDIT: I've done a little more research and it looks like the small packaged chips are actually MOSFETs and the gray boxes are the VRMs. Anybody know if this is correct?

 

[Zap]

Probably wouldn't hurt to put heatsinks on both sets of components, but I think you would want them primarily on the smaller items (MOSFETs or whatever).

 

[v0id]

OK, I stuck the heatsinks on the 5 small packaged chips (VRMs? MOSFETs?) on the front and spread out the remaining 3 heatsinks on the VRMs on the back of the board. I'm seeing an improvement of about 5 degrees C under load for the GPU now that the heatsinks are installed and the hot air above the GPUs is being exhausted out the side panel. Anyway I'm not having any more crashes so that problem is fixed.

Thanks very much to everyone who's helped me figure out what the problem was and solve it!

 

[WoodButcher]

Glad to see you made out well. Those heatsinks I frequently mod with the dremel to to cool any offending members. Even the memory chips under the stock sink will benefit from just a flat copper plate on top of them, the copper will draw heat from whatever device it rests on wether the metal has fins / spires to dissapate the heat or not. If you have reason to pull the stock heatsink to can use copper sheet cut to size with thermal paste. I have an IR gun and find hotspots with that but you can use your finger. Be sure to ground youself to the case with the other hand first and remember to pull back if you find a hot device....:awe:

A quick note about thermal paste / epoxy and the reason I won't recommend it to others, some of the products sold are permanent. The 3M tapes that come with enzos are more than adequate and can be removed if you need to get warranty work or an RMA.
A few years ago I was at my local pc shop and they had a pc in for repair, a broken CPU socket. Apparently the guy read forums and replaced the TIM but used 2 part thermal paste and then goofed one of the push pins. Instant overheating problem, the paste had set and he ripped the mobo trying to remove the heatsink. The shop sold him a mobo, CPU and heatsink, and were to the point of using a chisel and hammer to separate the sink and CPU when I came in. I stopped them and got my first "quadcore" for $5, A P840 EE.
I held the chip by the edges with channel locks and used a torch on the sink to soften the paste enough to separate them.