Help fix surge protector

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SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
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Codes (ie legislation) only addresses human safety issues. It does not address transistor safety. That difference is critical.

First, no protector does protection. Protection (be it using a lightning rod or a protector) is defined by the quality of and connection to earth. Earth is where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Critical to any surge protector is a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. An electrode that both meets and exceeds code requirements.

For example, if a breaker box ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to earthing electrodes, then protection is compromised. Wire length (not thickness - length) is too long. Sharp bends exist going over the foundation. Ground wire is not separated from non-grounding wires. Better protection connects a 'whole house' protector on a wire through the foundation. Eliminating feet of wire. No sharp bends. And separated from other wires above the breaker box.

Second, a key term is "single point earth ground". A utility demonstrates good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions.

A minimal 50,000 amp number for a 'whole house' protector defines life expectancy over many surges. Quality of that earthing and its connection define protection during each surge. Most important component of any protection system is its earth ground. Not just any earth ground. A low impedance connection to "single point earth ground". That addresses both equipotential and conductivity.

Code and legislation do not address 'transistor safety'.

Yes, agreed.
Human safety is the MOST important, with equipment (damage) protection being of VERY secondary importance to human safety, assuming that the equipment (damage) itself, does not cause a fire, electric shock hazard or other dangers.
 

bud--

Member
Nov 2, 2011
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A greater voltage change means a catastrophic (unacceptable) failure (ie fire) often seen with undersized power strips.

Often seen?

Where is the record of "often seen" fires with UL listed protectors made after 1998. It is westom's fiction because he has no technical arguments for why plug-in protectors do not work.

Also called thermal runaway. bud has described that catastrophic failure as if it was acceptable.

Westom suffers from hallucinations.

I described the normal failure mode for MOVs in an answer to SOFT. It is very unlikely to happen in UL listed protectors, either service panel or plug-in.

bud's expert says adjacent (point of connection) protectors can even make appliance damage easier. We, who did this stuff as engineers for decades, have identified similar damage created by an adjacent protector. Martzloff says in a conclusion to his 1994 IEEE paper:

Westom forgets to mention that Martzloff said in the same document:
"Mitigation of the threat can take many forms. One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge protector]"

At the time of the paper multiport surge protectors were just a concept or very new. The whole point of the paper, which westom turns on its head, is that multiport protectors are effective. (Multiport protectors have ports for cable, phone and other wiring to wire through the protector, as appropriate, to connect to the protected equipment.)

In 2001 Martzloff wrote the NIST guide which also says plug-in protectors are effective.

These superior, properly sized, and less expensive solutions are provided by manufacturer's with better integrity.

Repeating:
All westoom's "responsible" manufacturers except SquareD and Polyphaser make plug-in protectors and say they are effective. Westom says plug-in protectors don't work.

SquareD says for their "best" service panel protector "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use."

Incidentally, a minor point, westom has never provided a link to a $50 service panel protector at Lowes or Home depot that meets his requirement of a 50,000 A rating.
 

bud--

Member
Nov 2, 2011
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In the ideal world ALL surge protectors would have really big, high rated MOVs, such that they could withstand 10,000's of big surges, suffering from little or no damage.
But in practice, this would make surge protectors more expensive, quite possibly so expensive that most people would not be interested in buying them anymore.

Remember from the investigation by the author of the NIST surge guide that the worst case energy at a plug-in protector was 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Any protector will have ratings above that. And protectors with far higher ratings are readily available inexpensively. Both the protectors I am using have ratings over 1,000 joules, have a protected equipment warranty, and cost about $30. I do not expect them to fail. Neither does the manufacturer.

That is what a 'whole house' protector does.

Repeating:
Service panel protectors are a real good idea.
But from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

The other and different device, also called a protector, is often a profit center. MOVs in them are only more robust when UL 1449 is requires it.

Nonsense.

Protectors with ratings of over a thousand joules are readily available. That is far more than is required to pass UL tests.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts.

One of the protectors I am using has 3 MOVS of 590 joules each. Provide a source for that MOV for ten cents.

A profit center that does not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges such as lightning.

Nonsense.

A fire marshal describes how this happens. And why investigators overlook the reason:

Repeating:
From westoms previous horror story from a fire department - the text included "More modern surge suppressors are manufactured with a Thermal Cut Out mounted near, or in contact with, the MOV that is intended shut the unit down overheating occurs."
Wouldn't the author then say if any of the failed protectors were made with thermal disconnects (after 1998).

Others have seen trivial anomalies create fire when protectors are undersized; are not even designed for typically destructive transients. Norma in 2008 describes the danger:

Repeating:
Anyone with minimal knowledge of electronics will recognize that whatever happened (if anything) was not a surge.
And perhaps westom can explain how a service panel protector will provide any protection for whatever happened.

UL1449 was created in 1986 because undersized protectors caused so many fires.

UL 1449 was created because surge protectors were a new device and need a standard to evaluate their safety. It is why UL creates all the electrical standards.

But fires occur even after the latest upgrades.

Still missing - reports of numerous fires in UL listed protectors made after 1998.

In fact, one friend had 33,000 volts drop onto local distribution so that even electric meters exploded from their pans. Others had numerous appliance and protector damage. At least one had fused circuit breakers. He only had a damaged meter; nothing else.

Service panel protectors can handle thousands of amps for the very short duration of a surge. It is lunacy to think they can handle the much longer "temporary overvoltage" from crossed power wires. See the IEEE surge guide pages 11, 15, 25.

And repeating:
The NIST surge expert has written:
"In fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge."


Westom refuses to understand how plug-in protectors work, even though sources including the IEEE and NIST surge guides have been cited. He tries to make sources say the opposite of what they really say. He uses scare tactics of a fire which he can't substantiate. Close to everything westom writes about plug-in protectors is wrong. Yet he posts his misinformation all over the internet.

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both say plug-in protectors are effective.
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
2,417
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Incidentally, a minor point, westom has never provided a link to a $50 service panel protector at Lowes or Home depot that meets his requirement of a 50,000 A rating.

As requested, here is the link:

LINK

$50.00 / each

Leviton 120/240 Volt Residential Whole House Surge Protector

Maximum Amperage (amps) 48000.000 A

Joules 3400

UL1449 3.0 Edition rated for 600V peak clamping voltage (L-N, L-G, N-G)

PRODUCT OVERVIEW

The 51110-001 Residential Surge Protection Panel is designed for mounting at the service entrance in homes, apartments and condominiums. It offers advanced surge protection for modern electronics and appliances, reducing the risk of damage from spikes and surges entering the property through AC power lines.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,097
1,454
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I have a CRAZY idea. Call this surge protector retired, use it as a multi-outlet strip instead, and ignore all the posturing arguments because avoiding surge damage was always about how much you want to spend vs what the equipment is worth.

Yes Tom has been arguing about these things for a very, very, long time. I have to assume a surge killed his cat or child for it to have gone on this long because he's been doing it since the usenet era, before this AT forum existed. That's not a judgement, just some history.

About paranoia regarding fixing vs replacing, yes surge protectors have a finite lifespan. If you replace it with an equivalently crappy $25 unit, that's not a "fix", that's paying a little bit more to deal with a small increase in surge protection.

The aging of the components, if present, is significant, but to see some signs of heating on a PCB and a couple resistors is nothing, chicken crying sky is falling sort of scenario. You might as well ignore it and weigh the other arguments people posed without this variable involved.

In the end a plug in wall surge protector is not comprehensive protection against surges, it's whatever insurance policy the manufacturer guarantees vs their hesitance to pay out if damage occurs. It's better than nothing, and not as big a fire hazzard as some suggest, but if we want to be anally retentive about the subject, nothing replaces a lightning pole taller than anything around it.

Otherwise, nothing is guaranteed in life. Have a redundant system and data. Killer power surges are not one of the top few reasons people lose hardware or data.
 
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erwin1978

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2001
1,637
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When there is a surge, is the shunted power registered in the power meter outside and will the utility company charge me for it?
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,097
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^ If it flows through the meter, yes but a typical meter can't respond fast enough to measure that beyond a momentary blip, plus that's a trivial amount of power, high voltage but very short duration. The far more common surges are things already behind your power meter like appliances with electric motors kicking off.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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When there is a surge, is the shunted power registered in the power meter outside and will the utility company charge me for it?
Some might discuss VA verses watts. You consume more VAs. But only get charged for what you use - the watts. The utility only charges for power you actually consume. (This discussed with tongue in cheek.)
 

erwin1978

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2001
1,637
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Just to let everyone know that APC did a mass recall on their surge protectors due to overheating issues as I described. Took them over ten years to figure it out. Mine was one of the recalled units and it's on its way. Goto http://recall.apc.com/ and get what you deserve.
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
2,417
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Just to let everyone know that APC did a mass recall on their surge protectors due to overheating issues as I described. Took them over ten years to figure it out. Mine was one of the recalled units and it's on its way. Goto http://recall.apc.com/ and get what you deserve.

Thanks for letting everyone know.
That's quite an amazing end to this story.
Anyway, you will/should now get a good one, without taking any risks.
 

John Connor

Lifer
Nov 30, 2012
22,840
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OMFG! I just noticed westom posted in this thread. If it's about surge protectors on the Internet he will respond. Just Google his user name. LOL!
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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OMFG! If it's about surge protectors on the Internet he will respond.
Notice he was warning about fires created by grossly undersized plug-in protectors. Because only a few really knew what these things did. The misinformed will attack the messenger rather than say, "You know, he was right."
 

SOFTengCOMPelec

Platinum Member
May 9, 2013
2,417
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Notice he was warning about fires created by grossly undersized plug-in protectors. Because only a few really knew what these things did. The misinformed will attack the messenger rather than say, "You know, he was right."

'At some level', the fact that the manufacturer has recalled the item(s), and offered free replacement(s), means that (in all likelihood) some/all of the posters in this thread, (including yourself), were right!, at least partially.

(At some level) = I'm trying NOT to take sides, and agree (or disagree), with any of the posters in this thread.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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(At some level) = I'm trying NOT to take sides, and agree (or disagree), with any of the posters in this thread.
It was never about taking sides. It was about what is important such as why plug-in protectors create a fie hazard. And why even plug-in protectors need protection only provided by a completely different device often called 'whole house' protection. Relevant is why protectors have created so many fires and do not claim to protect from one (a typically destructive) type of surge.

That APC was only a worst case example of this problem. Anyone can open that APC to identify parts that fail to avert fire. Parts that create a hazard are labeled F4 and MV1 through 6. (On my unit, MV2 and MV3 were not installed.) Same problem exists (in various degrees) with other plug-in protectors.

That APC was among the worst offenders; sold long after the danger was well understood.
 
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bryanl

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2006
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Anyone can open that APC to identify parts that fail to avert fire. Parts that create a hazard are labeled F4 and MV1 through 6. (On my unit, MV2 and MV3 were not installed.)
What are you doing with a plug-in surge protector? You've said they were ineffective due to poor earth ground connections and have instead recommended whole house surge protectors.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,642
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What are you doing with a plug-in surge protector? You've said they were ineffective due to poor earth ground connections and have instead recommended whole house surge protectors.

Why are you in HT if you can't comprehend what you read?