Help: ECS nForce4-A939 4G RAM support

[firstep]

Hi, fellows. I bought ECS/AMD64x2 combo from Fry's in BF and installed 2x1G Corsair Value Select RAM. Later I got another 2 Corsair 1G RAM from Fry's After-Xmas sale. So basically I have a 4G RAM system.

According to ECS's manual, they support up to 4G RAM. However, when I start the computer, the BIOS only reports 3.375G RAM. I've googled the question. It seems because some mem address is reserved for on-board device, and to make use of it, some "meomry remapping" or called "memory hoisting" should be set in BIOS. However, there's no such an option in ECS's latest BIOS (1.1c issued on Dec 17). I've contacted ECS and they haven't replied.

Anyone else meets the similar problem? How come they claim "up to 4G" support but actually not. Is ECS a decent company? I need to decide whether to return the memory to Fry's ASAP, as the item must be returned within 14-day.

 

[firstep]

Thank you very much!

 

[grooge]

When operating in 32 bits, 4 gb is the max adressable space for the system. All devices use its own adressable space, so it is cut from the main memory.
64 bits OS will use more than 4 gigs..

Just do the math.. 2^32 and see the result!

So yes, the board support 4 gigs but will uses as many as it is available for RAM. You didn't get any crash with 4 gigs...

 

[firstep]

Don't fool, please. Do you know what is memory remapping or hoisting? If not, google it before trying to answer any question beyond you. I really want to know how do you become a "Seninor member" by provinding senselss answers.

There are examples that both BIOS and XP 32-bit version can recognize 4G RAM. The bottom line is, the BIOS must be designed in this way. Obviously, ECS is not good enough to make it and they lie. That's it.

Originally posted by: grooge
When operating in 32 bits, 4 gb is the max adressable space for the system. All devices use its own adressable space, so it is cut from the main memory.
64 bits OS will use more than 4 gigs..

Just do the math.. 2^32 and see the result!

So yes, the board support 4 gigs but will uses as many as it is available for RAM. You didn't get any crash with 4 gigs...

 

[Wentelteefje]

I really want to know how do you become a "Seninor member" by provinding senselss answers.

That's the whole point... People can even become Lifers while having given nothing more than senseless answers... One's status isn't particularly linked to one's knowledge of it...

As for myself, I have absolutely no idea about it, and I admit so... But you seem to know about it though... Haven't come up with a solution yourself...? Prolly tried the newest BIOS as well...

 

[firstep]

I've googled this issue and done some homework before coming here to seek helps. I usually solve my computer problems on my own.

The BIOS is up-to-date, and there's no "memory remapping" option. That's why I complain ECS. They shouldn't claim sth that they cannot support. Also, their tech support is poor. I've sent emails to them a couple days ago and they haven't replied yet.

Originally posted by: Wentelteefje

I really want to know how do you become a "Seninor member" by provinding senselss answers.

That's the whole point... People can even become Lifers while having given nothing more than senseless answers... One's status isn't particularly linked to one's knowledge of it...

As for myself, I have absolutely no idea about it, and I admit so... But you seem to know about it though... Haven't come up with a solution yourself...? Prolly tried the newest BIOS as well...

 

[Peter]

firstep, you know what? grooge's answer is perfectly spot on, like it or not. You will not get to have 4 GBytes of contiguous RAM in any x86 machine. Remapped RAM is not visible to 32-bit code, neither to BIOS's memory count nor to 32-bit operating systems.

The memory remapping (of the cutoff part that couldn't fit into 32-bit space anymore) occurs automatically, so why have a setup control for it. Install a 64-bit OS and you'll see.

Do the math - 2 to the power of 32 is four gigabytes, and this is your total space for EVERYTHING. If you have four gigabytes of RAM, then where do you fit your graphics card's RAM, your other I/O resources, system essentials like BIOS ROM, interrupt controllers, etc. etc.? That's where your .7 GBytes went to - I/O.

 

[firstep]

No, I don't think your words are right. There are MB's whose BIOS does show 4G memory after remapping. Basically the remapping will set the on-board device address above 4G. Currently, it starts from 4G and goes down, and thus consumes the address space. Search this forum and you'll see more info.

Please don't mix BIOS's 4G support and OS 4G support. Everyone knows 4G = 2^32, but few understand what "4G limit" really means. I did find some interesting links in this forum regarding this issue, although my concerns haven't been clarified.

BTW, it seems that in PAE mode, XP can support 36-bit address which is 64G.

Originally posted by: Peter
firstep, you know what? grooge's answer is perfectly spot on, like it or not. You will not get to have 4 GBytes of contiguous RAM in any x86 machine. Remapped RAM is not visible to 32-bit code, neither to BIOS's memory count nor to 32-bit operating systems.

The memory remapping (of the cutoff part that couldn't fit into 32-bit space anymore) occurs automatically, so why have a setup control for it. Install a 64-bit OS and you'll see.

Do the math - 2 to the power of 32 is four gigabytes, and this is your total space for EVERYTHING. If you have four gigabytes of RAM, then where do you fit your graphics card's RAM, your other I/O resources, system essentials like BIOS ROM, interrupt controllers, etc. etc.? That's where your .7 GBytes went to - I/O.

 

[Peter]

I'm a senior BIOS engineer, dude. Cut your ego inflation down or I'll stop the lecture far before it's finished.

You cannot map I/O to above 4 GBytes, because

* Many PCI cards don't even support that,
* 32-bit OS would be unable to reach to the I/O,
* It'd break x86 architecture compatibility altogether.

The BIOS detects and enables all your RAM alright, it's only that you don't get to all of it in 32-bit environments. Some BIOSes write "4GB detected" to the screen, some write the amount that's available for 32-bit access. It's just display - the actual outcome doesn't change: Some cutoff below 4 GBytes if (RAM+IO>4GB), with the remainder remapped to above-4GB if the RAM controller supports that (the AMD64 one does).

XP Pro with full PAE enabled can reach RAM above 4 GBytes - in paged access. This is a big performance hit, due to the paging and due to the fact that one can't DMA into paged memory. Plain XP's PAE is crippled and has no 36-bit addressing. It exists only to get to the Page-No-Execute flag which is only available in PAE mode, but not in standard paging.

 

[firstep]

I don't mean to argue with anyone. But I'm open to have any nice discussion b/c it will benefit.

Please take a look at my original post if you haven't done so. My CPU is AMD64x2. So remapping should help it recognize memory address above 4g (4g RAM + devices), according to your words. Can you explain in this case why the mem is only 3.375G?

Originally posted by: Peter
I'm a senior BIOS engineer, dude. Cut your ego inflation down or I'll stop the lecture far before it's finished.

You cannot map I/O to above 4 GBytes, because

* Many PCI cards don't even support that,
* 32-bit OS would be unable to reach to the I/O,
* It'd break x86 architecture compatibility altogether.

The BIOS detects and enables all your RAM alright, it's only that you don't get to all of it in 32-bit environments. Some BIOSes write "4GB detected" to the screen, some write the amount that's available for 32-bit access. It's just display - the actual outcome doesn't change: Some cutoff below 4 GBytes if (RAM+IO>4GB), with the remainder remapped to above-4GB if the RAM controller supports that (the AMD64 one does).

XP Pro with full PAE enabled can reach RAM above 4 GBytes - in paged access. This is a big performance hit, due to the paging and due to the fact that one can't DMA into paged memory. Plain XP's PAE is crippled and has no 36-bit addressing. It exists only to get to the Page-No-Execute flag which is only available in PAE mode, but not in standard paging.

 

[Peter]

I did that already. Your BIOS is showing the AVAILABLE amount below 4GB, not the DETECTED amount.

Do you or do you not have a 36- or 64-bit-addressing OS? Unless you do, you do not actually know whether the board is or isn't remapping the rest to above-4GB.

btw, the attitude you demonstrated so far in this thread certainly is all about arguing and zilch about learning. Cut it out.

 

[firstep]

Interesting. So you mean for AMD64 processor, no matter how much memory shown in POST, the BIOS already done the remapping? Well, it sounds possible. Let me assume it's true. However, the /PAE option is set in boot.ini. So the OS should be 36-bit ready. In this case, hardware info in XP should be shown as 4G, instead of 3.375G. But unfortunately, the upper part is still hidden. Can you further explain this?

Some other words. I don't think I was overacting. Look at the post that arises arguements. Any useful info provided? "4G limit" is rather a conceptual explantion. What does it really mean? I'd say I can reply any similar question in this way which looks plausible but doesn't help. Also, the CPU was claimed 64-bit already; the OS was claimed XP already, which means 36-bit feature is provided. Without considering this, a "Just do your math" is really an irresponsible answer. This is not a simple "2^32=4G" question. It's not like beginners come and complain why my 100G HDD becomes 93G, and someone just show him math 100Gx093=93G.

Originally posted by: Peter
I did that already. Your BIOS is showing the AVAILABLE amount below 4GB, not the DETECTED amount.

Do you or do you not have a 36- or 64-bit-addressing OS? Unless you do, you do not actually know whether the board is or isn't remapping the rest to above-4GB.

btw, the attitude you demonstrated so far in this thread certainly is all about arguing and zilch about learning. Cut it out.

 

[firstep]

Interesting. So you mean for AMD64 processor, no matter how much memory shown in POST, the BIOS already done the remapping? Well, it sounds possible. But why some other MB's BIOS still provides explicit remapping option, if this remapping is done automatically? According to your words, 32-bit processor will not do remapping anyway, and 64-bit will do it anyway, the BIOS should be able to detect the CPU type and decide remapping automatically, why there is still manual setup option?

Let me assume it's true that's just a "how-much-shown-not-how-much detected" problem. However, the /PAE option is set in boot.ini. So the OS should be 36-bit ready. In this case, hardware info in XP should be shown as 4G, instead of 3.375G. But unfortunately, the upper part is still hidden. Can you further explain this?

Some other words. I don't think I was overacting. Look at the post that arises arguements. Any useful info provided? "4G limit" is rather a conceptual explantion. What does it really mean? I'd say I can reply any similar question in this way which looks plausible but doesn't help. Also, the CPU was claimed 64-bit already; the OS was claimed XP already, which means 36-bit feature is provided. Without considering this, a "Just do your math" is really an irresponsible answer. This is not a simple "2^32=4G" question. It's not like beginners come and complain why my 100G HDD becomes 93G, and someone just show him math 100Gx093=93G.

Originally posted by: Peter
I did that already. Your BIOS is showing the AVAILABLE amount below 4GB, not the DETECTED amount.

Do you or do you not have a 36- or 64-bit-addressing OS? Unless you do, you do not actually know whether the board is or isn't remapping the rest to above-4GB.

btw, the attitude you demonstrated so far in this thread certainly is all about arguing and zilch about learning. Cut it out.

[/quote]

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: firstep
I've googled this issue and done some homework before coming here to seek helps. I usually solve my computer problems on my own.

... I really want to know how do you become a "Seninor member" by provinding senselss answers.

With your attitude I don't think you're going to get much more help. Indeed if you know how to use Google, you should be able to figure out this forum's search function. This 4GB question has come up many times before. Senseless answers? I think grooge and Peter's answers both were sufficient for anybody who knows a bit more than average about computers and passed reading comprehension in high school, but in case you missed it, I'll type slower...

The short answer is:

There is no problem.

There is no defect.

Because of design limitations, backwards compatibility and/or the phase of the moon, the limitation is there and it is real. Learn to live with it for now because complaining about it and insulting people who try to explain it to you just makes us shake our heads and not bother helping you in the future.

Eventually both hardware and software will overcome this limitation. Remember 640K? Nevermind, that may be before your time... Remember 48 bit LBA?

 

[Zap]

BTW, welcome to the forums. Kick back, grab a :beer: and enjoy the ride.

 

[firstep]

 

[firstep]

Originally posted by: firstep
Short comments: your short answers don't make any sense. Maybe you can use this kind of simple answers to persuade beginners and win some respects that how knowledgable you are. But I won't be blinded, as I have my own judgement. You simply repeat some points that is actually denied by the previous posts in this thread.

I respect elites. Peter shows more insights but I still have doubts, so our discussion is continued. But I won't respect faked ones. You can continue to show your high school math and writing wherever else. But from these simple answers none can judge if you really have insights on these problems, or not. Thank you for the beer and surely I'll enjoy it.

BTW, don't pretend to be seninor by just mentioning 640K DOS problem. Knowing some computer history doesn't mean knowing computer. The system is complicated. One could be expert in some area but greenhand in another. Everyone is learning.

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: firstep
I've googled this issue and done some homework before coming here to seek helps. I usually solve my computer problems on my own.

... I really want to know how do you become a "Seninor member" by provinding senselss answers.

With your attitude I don't think you're going to get much more help. Indeed if you know how to use Google, you should be able to figure out this forum's search function. This 4GB question has come up many times before. Senseless answers? I think grooge and Peter's answers both were sufficient for anybody who knows a bit more than average about computers and passed reading comprehension in high school, but in case you missed it, I'll type slower...

The short answer is:

There is no problem.

There is no defect.

Because of design limitations, backwards compatibility and/or the phase of the moon, the limitation is there and it is real. Learn to live with it for now because complaining about it and insulting people who try to explain it to you just makes us shake our heads and not bother helping you in the future.

Eventually both hardware and software will overcome this limitation. Remember 640K? Nevermind, that may be before your time... Remember 48 bit LBA?

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by: firstepLet me assume it's true that's just a "how-much-shown-not-how-much detected" problem. However, the /PAE option is set in boot.ini. So the OS should be 36-bit ready.

I already explained to you that /PAE does NOT necessarily imply 36-bit addressing. Read again.

Oh, and yes it is a math problem. 4GB-X cannot turn out to be 4GB because X is well known to be a lot larger than zero.

 

[firstep]

I'm using XP Pro. What do you mean by "XP Pro with full PAE enabled" and what do u mean by"Plain XP's PAE"? Does "Plain XP" refer to "XP home"? How can I set "XP with full PAE enabled"?

Well, there are basically three questions in summary.

1) Can BIOS detect 4G, given AMD64 processor? Your answers are Yes but it is not necessary to display it, right?

2) Can XP Pro 32-bit version detect and fully access 4G physical mem? Your answers are some (like XP Pro with sth) can and some cannot (plain XP?). If so, how can I change setting such that the 4G RAM is fully utilized?

3) What if I just install XP 64-bit? Will 4G be shown in My Computer -> Properties
->General?

What I mean is, if by changing setting we can get 4G + X address space, then 4G + X - X is still 4G, no matter how large the X is. Basically I just want to protect my investment. 2x1G is not high; 3x1G is OK but I lose dual channel;if 4x1G is claimed to be OK, I'll hope to use all of them. If people cannot use 4G anyway, the MB manual should explicitly states "up to 3.375G", instead of "up to 4G".

 

[Peter]

The actual usable amount below 4G depends on the I/O you plug. Replace e.g. the 512-MByte graphics card with a 4-MByte one, and you'll get 508 MBytes more available system RAM. In an AGP system, cut the aperture size down from 256 to 32, and regain 224 MBytes of space to map system RAM into. System essentials block the uppermost 1.4 MBytes only, the rest is onboard PCI-ish I/O and what YOU added.

This is the exact same problem when we transitioned from the PC to the PC-AT - old programs and OSes were limited to 20-bit addressing (1MB), the upper part of which was (and still is btw) occupied by I/O and system essentials. Machines could have the full megabyte of RAM, but only 640K were visible to the user (and BIOSes displayed "640KB" - unless you used a 286-mode OS that could get to the remapped amount in 24-bit space. It's history repeating.

1) The BIOS has obviously detected and enabled all the RAM you have, else you wouldn't be seeing a >3GB display value.

2) You might want to research at Microsoft which Windows versions actually do 36-bit mode addressing. This is limited to the higher versions, might even be limited to "Server" versions. MS Knowledgebase should have the precise answer. Use your internet skills.

3) XP 64-bit uses the full 40-bit linear physical addressing of the AMD64 processors. With that one, you'll see for sure.

 

[grooge]

To firstep...

Too bad.. I know the answer, but.. Since I'm only a nolifer senior member.. and that you needed a full page to understand what my 4 lines just explained to you.. I simply not have more time to allow in this thread..

 

[grooge]

Originally posted by: Wentelteefje

I really want to know how do you become a "Seninor member" by provinding senselss answers.

That's the whole point... People can even become Lifers while having given nothing more than senseless answers... One's status isn't particularly linked to one's knowledge of it...

As for myself, I have absolutely no idea about it, and I admit so... But you seem to know about it though... Haven't come up with a solution yourself...? Prolly tried the newest BIOS as well...

You've been registered for less time than I.. and have almost twice the number of my post.. Who is the nolifer between you and me..

Especially that you didnt have any clue about the 4g problem discussed here.. and start to put out some solution ...

Just like tech support.. clueless peoples reading prefab answer ...