Heat Pumps = scam?

[EricMartello]

Doing some of my own research on Heat Pumps (the thing to heat and cool your home), I discovered that heat pumps work well, until about 37 degrees F where they start to run constantly, possible invoking backup heat to work. I live in the Northeastern region of the US which routinely sees winter temps 30 and under for weeks at a time...and wind, which I surmise would require more heating to compensate for.

Right now I have an aging central air / gas furnace deal and the A/C is great in terms of not using much electricty, but the gas furnace sucks more [gas] the winter than a thai hooker with a $10 bill. In my area, propane is close to $3 a gallon and I fill a 500 gallon tank about 3 times between Oct-Mar. That's a lot of money I'd rather spend on thai hookers and parts for my car. I spend about $30 a month to COOL my home in the winter...so yeah, total WTF there since I effectively pay $400/mo for heat and hot water. BULLLLLSHIT

So is there such thing as a heat pump that works efficiently in the winter? I don't mean pussy temps like 40 degrees - 40 degrees is warm; it's not winter, winter is 30 degrees F and below...with wind.

It's 2009 why the hell don't we have fusion heating or something yet. Screw developing crap like iphones and make a damn space-time manipulating climate controller. We have the technology. What are my options?

 

[DougK62]

Get a more efficient furnace?

 

[bobdole369]

Nope. Heat pumps are more typically used in the south, where there is ample heat in the air to heat your POOL. Sometimes used as an AC unit/heater - but oftentimes they omit the reverse cycle and just add a heating coil to the air handler.

Aquacal Icebreaker heatpumps will effectively heat your pool in subfreezing conditions. But thats not really what you want is it....

 

[So]

You do not live in an area where it is appropriate to use a heat pump. Get a high efficiency natural gas furnace and have the gas company plumb a line to your place.

 

[Ronstang]

Heat pumps are not a scam. They work quite well within certain boundaries and you live in a region where it gets too cold for them to work efficiently. It is a limit of the technology, they are not going to be able to make heat pumps that work well at super low temps....or they already would have.

I have had a heat pump at our lake house for 25 years and it works great. We hardly see temps that low and if we do it is unlikely we are going to be there anyway. We don't have natural gas available and propane is a hassle and too expensive for our purpose. A heat pump is a perfect solution for us.

 

[FoBoT]

you are talking about air source heat pumps

ground source heat pumps, where the heat sink/source is coils buried in the ground, work fine in colder regions

my ground source heat pump is awesome

 

[EricMartello]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you are talking about air source heat pumps

ground source heat pumps, where the heat sink/source is coils buried in the ground, work fine in colder regions

my ground source heat pump is awesome

I looked at the ground source option...it seemed cool until they told me it's $15K to drill a few holes in the ground.

Aside from replacing my gas furnace (which was super high efficiency in 97 when it was new), I was thinking about just getting some electric baseboard heaters for each room. That's like what they do in Japan...even with the additional electricity being used i bet it will be better than propane.

BTW is hole-drilling really that expensive? If I buy a hole drilling machine can I go around charging that kinda money to drill?

 

[waffleironhead]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you are talking about air source heat pumps

ground source heat pumps, where the heat sink/source is coils buried in the ground, work fine in colder regions

my ground source heat pump is awesome

I looked at the ground source option...it seemed cool until they told me it's $15K to drill a few holes in the ground.

Aside from replacing my gas furnace (which was super high efficiency in 97 when it was new), I was thinking about just getting some electric baseboard heaters for each room. That's like what they do in Japan...even with the additional electricity being used i bet it will be better than propane.

BTW is hole-drilling really that expensive? If I buy a hole drilling machine can I go around charging that kinda money to drill?

Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

 

[coldmeat]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you are talking about air source heat pumps

ground source heat pumps, where the heat sink/source is coils buried in the ground, work fine in colder regions

my ground source heat pump is awesome

I looked at the ground source option...it seemed cool until they told me it's $15K to drill a few holes in the ground.

Aside from replacing my gas furnace (which was super high efficiency in 97 when it was new), I was thinking about just getting some electric baseboard heaters for each room. That's like what they do in Japan...even with the additional electricity being used i bet it will be better than propane.

BTW is hole-drilling really that expensive? If I buy a hole drilling machine can I go around charging that kinda money to drill?

They don't drill holes they dig 2 200-300 foot trenches. At least here they do when they install geothermal heat pumps.

 

[EricMartello]

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

 

[EricMartello]

Originally posted by: coldmeat

They don't drill holes they dig 2 200-300 foot trenches. At least here they do when they install geothermal heat pumps.

That option is only available if you have the land and your permafrost layer is relatively close to the surface. The two contractors who quoted me both said they'd have to drill at least three 150 holes at like $30 a foot. Now that I think about it, drilling is lucrative. Just one foot is $30 and you can say "I only drill 50 feet minimum".

 

[spidey07]

The best is a combo gas and heat pump. The heat pump is more efficient up to a certain temperature and then gas becomes more efficient. Controller/thermostat tell it which one to use.

Also carrier and trane are offering 1000 dollar rebate if you purchase in the month of september in addition to your possible 1500 tax rebate. So if you're going to make a move, make it fast.

 

[AeroEngy]

Originally posted by: spidey07
The best is a combo gas and heat pump. The heat pump is more efficient up to a certain temperature and then gas becomes more efficient. Controller/thermostat tell it which one to use.

This is what I was also going to recommend. I think it is called a dual-fuel setup ... maybe. I am pretty sure it uses an outside air temp sensor and switches over to gas when the heat pump starts being inefficient.

I never owned this setup but when I was in college I worked installing heat pumps in the summer to earn cash. It was pretty common at least in Northern Virginia and WV.

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: coldmeat

They don't drill holes they dig 2 200-300 foot trenches. At least here they do when they install geothermal heat pumps.

That option is only available if you have the land and your permafrost layer is relatively close to the surface. The two contractors who quoted me both said they'd have to drill at least three 150 holes at like $30 a foot. Now that I think about it, drilling is lucrative. Just one foot is $30 and you can say "I only drill 50 feet minimum".

LOL.

 

[Blackjack200]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Yes. If electric heat was cheaper no-one would bother with gas/oil/propane. It's probably much more expensive.

 

[tynopik]

wear a coat

get one of those external wood pellet stoves

install an efficient wood stove (most fireplaces just send heat up the chimney)

 

[SagaLore]

Heat pumps are even more effective when combined with geothermal.

 

[simpletron]

you can get a 30% tax credit from the federal government for installing a geothermal heat pump, which will take some of the sting out of the price. also numerous states and power companies offer some form of aid(loans, rebates, tax credits/deductions). check http://www.dsireusa.org/ for state level breaks.

 

[boomerang]

I live in SE Michigan. When it came time to replace my furnace and A/C unit, I decided to drop an additional $1K and get a heat pump. There was a federal tax credit at the time that helped influence that decision.

Whether it was a wise decision or not in the climate I live in is uncertain. We have lots of days in the Fall and Spring where the heat pump is heating the house. No natural gas is being used. Is that economical? I guess it depends on what the rates are for gas versus electric among other things. It's actually quite complex to determine with a lot of variables involved. Based on what you're paying, it may be worth it. What you really need to do is get a trusted heating and cooling company out to run the numbers for you. They should be able to calculate your costs and give you payback numbers.

Can't you lock in a lower rate with a pre-pay plan on your propane? That's way more than what the propane company here was advertising as a pre-pay price. I understand that prices can vary greatly.

When I had this home built, I originally had propane for heat as NG was not available. When I switched, my costs dropped so dramatically that I almost couldn't believe it.

 

[DrPizza]

Probably close enough to PA that you can get coal fairly cheaply. The price of coal has been going up, but it's still probably the cheapest way to heat your house in the winter, if it's available in your location. We're in Western NY & have much colder temperatures than the area in your profile. Last year, I believe my heating bill for the winter was around $700. My house is minimally (~2" in the ceiling) insulated. I keep the living room/dining room/kitchen between 70 & 80; bedrooms cooler for sleeping. Anthracite is quite clean, and for a couple extra dollars per ton, it's lightly dampened with kerosene to reduce dust to virtually zero. It's slightly inconvenient to have to spend almost 3 minutes every other day emptying the ashpan & refilling the hopper, but it probably saves me a couple thousand over using oil.

 

[EricMartello]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Probably close enough to PA that you can get coal fairly cheaply. The price of coal has been going up, but it's still probably the cheapest way to heat your house in the winter, if it's available in your location. We're in Western NY & have much colder temperatures than the area in your profile. Last year, I believe my heating bill for the winter was around $700. My house is minimally (~2" in the ceiling) insulated. I keep the living room/dining room/kitchen between 70 & 80; bedrooms cooler for sleeping. Anthracite is quite clean, and for a couple extra dollars per ton, it's lightly dampened with kerosene to reduce dust to virtually zero. It's slightly inconvenient to have to spend almost 3 minutes every other day emptying the ashpan & refilling the hopper, but it probably saves me a couple thousand over using oil.

I've always shrugged off "wood pellets" and "coal" when my friends suggested them...mainly because I don't feel like having to shovel shit around just like you said, but I suppose I can spare 3-5 minutes if it means saving thousands of dollars. What do you do with the ashes? Can you sell them to anyone?

 

[Rubycon]

Heat pumps are not a scam. Stop doing business with shady installers recommending them in northern climates.

Dual fuel is a way to go as long as they don't set the lockout temp too high. Of course many installers - particularly oil - will do this because they still want you to buy their oil.

Finding the ideal balance point between excessive outdoor unit run time/comfort zone and using more expensive dino fuel takes some time and trial and error. There is no one size fits all initial setting. Make sure whether the indoor thermostat has control over this or a jumper setting on the control board on the outside unit; that this is explained how to change this lockout temperature!

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Electricity would probably cost you the about same depending on what you pay for it...

Electricity @ $0.1065/kWh the cost is $31.21 per million Btu ($4276/year). - Assuming no efficiency gains and no price hike for using a vast quantity of electricity...
Propane @ $3/gal the cost is $32.84 per million Btu ($4500/year)

Buy a better furnace.

or switch to Natural Gas -

Assuming you paid ~$3 for propane last year at $4500 - the equivalent number of Btu in Natural gas would cost $1739 (at the worst price in Baltimore), inc delivery charge ($0.26/therm WTF?) and monthly fee ($13)). The best price in Baltimore drops it to $1267.

If you furnace is old and inefficient you could probably use less electricity/gas with a newer efficient system.

 

[TankGuys]

I live in SE Michigan, and we get both hot summer days and cold winter days. We had a ground source heat pump installed about 2 years ago now, and I'm VERY glad we did.

Yes, when the temp drops down to a certain point, it's tough for the geo system to keep up, so it will turn on the backup electrical resistance heat system. Yes, this certainly costs more than just running the heat pump. However, for the few times it even has to kick that on, compared to the massive savings you see every other day of the year, it's still *well* worth it. I would not consider any other heating/cooling system again.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: TankGuys
I live in SE Michigan, and we get both hot summer days and cold winter days. We had a ground source heat pump installed about 2 years ago now, and I'm VERY glad we did.

Yes, when the temp drops down to a certain point, it's tough for the geo system to keep up, so it will turn on the backup electrical resistance heat system. Yes, this certainly costs more than just running the heat pump. However, for the few times it even has to kick that on, compared to the massive savings you see every other day of the year, it's still *well* worth it. I would not consider any other heating/cooling system again.

Why are you using resistance heat with all those quad core cpus you have up there?