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Heat absorbation of H20 vs C02

shrumpage

Golden Member
Some events at our campus has perked my interest in global warming, and I am trying to understand some of the basic mechanics of the process.

C02 is pegged as the molecule responsible for global warming, but is less then 1% of the atmosphere.

H20 is way more prevalent in our atmosphere, in all three states (gas, liquid and solid) and from what i can tell can absorb more wavelengths of energy, and overlaps the wavelengths that C02 absorbs (but not all).

What properties of the C02 molecule make it more of the culprit of global warming, then H20?

If anyone has any insight or can point me the right direction, I would appreciate it.
 
Recent seminars here in environmental engineering dealing with climate change have indicated that water is the primary greenhouse contributor. It's difficult to separate the effects of CO2 and water because they are highly correlated due to their similar sources, since they are the two primary products of combustion. Further complicating things are the complexities of water cycles. The take-home message (or, at least, the message that I took home) is that directly targeting CO2 will not have the huge impact that people are looking for. We need a more well-rounded approach that cuts down on both water and CO2 output, which means non-combustion energy sources.
 
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Which means non-combustion energy sources.

Well, biofuels based on i.e. corn or sugar cane adds neither water nor CO2 to the atmosphere (since the sme amount of water and CO2 is absorbed when the plants grows) and might be a good option at least in the short term. That said, biofuels have their own set of problems and are not neccesarily enviromentaly friendly.


 
The big picture in global warming has to do with a dynamic balance of energy input to the planet from outside against energy output back into space. The large majority of energy input (including heat) to the earth, almost all from our sun, ends up being re-radiated back out again, leaving only a small net increase in the earth's energy content (and hence average temperature). And many processes on earth trap the net gain. Some shows up immediately as increased heat energy which we observe as a temperature increase. Some gets trapped in items with mass - for example, plants trap visible and ultraviolet light energy in thier masses made from earth-bound materials, to be released later when they rot or are consumed for food. But at the release stage the energy is released as much-lower-energy heat, so that process effectively converts one energy form (light) into another (heat). In the MUCH longer term, for millions of years those dead plants were accumulating below the surface as coal, oil and gas, and now suddenly we are using up those million-years-of-input, releasing lots of waste heat rapidly.

The trouble is that all these energy conversion processes on earth'ssurface have one common thread. Energy is absorbed at high energy levels (short wavelengths) and part of it is used within the absorber and ultimately by people, animals, etc. But when that energy is released again it is always at a lower energy level (longer wavelengths). Now it happens that many atmospheric gases, like CO2, H2O, etc. are more transparent at higher frequency (shorter wavelengths) than at lower frequency. Hence they allow incoming energy radiation in many forms to penetrate our atmosphere down to the surface, but they absorb and keep the re-radiated lower frequency radiation. This effectively traps some heat on our planet. What we now understand is that, at an increasingly rapid rate, we are adding more of these heat-trapping gases to our atmosphere and improving its ability to trap the heat. So the old balance of energy input from space and re-radiation back out is being shifted to less re-radiation and more trapping of heat on the earth.

It's actually a double-whammy effect! Our dominant energy consumption mode is to burn up millions of years'worth of energy stores rapidly, releasing those millions of years of trappped energy in a form that cannot escape to space. And in doing so we add to the waste products , CO2 and H20, in our atmosphere that are shifting the balance to even more trapping! Even using up biofuel ony short-circuits the process by not releasing old energy reserves and using new recently-received energy.

Unfortunately the real root is how much energy we use to support our chosen lifestyles - plus, of course, the fact that there are more and more people on the planet doing the same thing! And we creatures of comfort are unlikely to choose MUCH simpler lifestyles that use less energy. There are even good arguments that suggest that, were we all to stop using oil reserves and go to burning wood in our houses for heat, we might be much worse off! After all, there are many more of us now than in the middle ages! And the wood-burning process tends to be less efficient in terms of converting mass into heat, so we get less heat and more undesirables like soot and toxic combustion by-products to contaminate our atmosphere in a different way.

So, do I have a solution to suggest? I'm nowhere near that good! But it is not found in biofuels or energy-efficient automobile engines, no mattter how helpful they are. And it certainly is not in accelerated oil exploration and development programs. Even nuclear generation systems only help somewhat - they still create waste heat, but they don't add CO2 and H2O to the atmosphere. They have their own waste product production and storage problems! The root is in persuading everyone to use MUCH less energy per person per day. That is, we ALL have to change human nature. Now, there's a challenge!
 
Water is definitely a huge greenhouse gas. Ever notice how it's usually warmer in the winter when it's cloudy than when it's sunny? The clouds reflect and hold in a lot of heat.
 
Originally posted by: silverpig
Water is definitely a huge greenhouse gas. Ever notice how it's usually warmer in the winter when it's cloudy than when it's sunny? The clouds reflect and hold in a lot of heat.

Not that I disagree with you, but did you ever notice that in the summer it's cooler when it's cloudy and warmer when it's sunny? 😉 (Just to play devil's advocate. Weather is far too complicated to be able to be reduced so simply.)
 
Also, as far as I understand the reason water is important is not because it is one of the end product of combustion, The extra amount of vater we let out into the atmosphere is pretty insignificant compared to the amount of water which is evaporated from the surface of the oceans every day, and any "excess" water would just be absorbed into the seas until an quasi-equilibirum vapour pressure was reached (the same is true to some extent for CO2, the difference is that there is a limit to how much CO2 water can absorb/disolve; for obvious reasons there is no such limit for H2O).

However, water is an extremely important greenhouse gas since it is part of the "postive feedback" of global warming; i.e. global warming=>the oceans become warmer=>more water is evaporated=>more global warming.
 
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: silverpig
Water is definitely a huge greenhouse gas. Ever notice how it's usually warmer in the winter when it's cloudy than when it's sunny? The clouds reflect and hold in a lot of heat.

Not that I disagree with you, but did you ever notice that in the summer it's cooler when it's cloudy and warmer when it's sunny? 😉 (Just to play devil's advocate. Weather is far too complicated to be able to be reduced so simply.)

Uh, that's because the incoming sunlight is reflected back out. Yeah it's a bit complicated but you can simplify it quite a bit and get something useful out of it still.
 
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: silverpig
Water is definitely a huge greenhouse gas. Ever notice how it's usually warmer in the winter when it's cloudy than when it's sunny? The clouds reflect and hold in a lot of heat.

Not that I disagree with you, but did you ever notice that in the summer it's cooler when it's cloudy and warmer when it's sunny? 😉 (Just to play devil's advocate. Weather is far too complicated to be able to be reduced so simply.)

Yeah, water tends to regulate itself a bit better than CO2, simply because of the albedo shift that happens with increased cloud cover.
 
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