In reality, this thread is a civil discussion. Sorry you see any opinion which doesn't agree with yours as flaming and cannot participate. I'm not basing views of all christians on a few fundamentals; rather my point was that it has become a huge business, complete with a recruiting sector, and that differs from its original intent. I do know how missionaries are presenting christianity. Interesting to see you justify lying about what someone said though... How would you like it if I claimed you made discriminatory comments? Don't like black people eh xirt? You feel the halocaust was a good thing xirtam? That's horrible man, how can you say that? Will be interesting to watch you try telling me that's somehow different...
what happened was heartbreaking, but like someone said before, its good that no one was killed.
According to the CIA factbook, the religious breakdown of haiti is as follows:
Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16% (Baptist 10%, Pentecostal 4%, Adventist 1%, other 1%), none 1%, other 3% (1982)
That means 4% are not christian.
So what if they are shoving christianity down the orphan's throats...only 4% of them arent christian anyways. These guys need as much help as humanly possible.
edit: okay new percentages for 1995:
Religious affiliation (1995)
Roman Catholic 68.5%;
Protestant 24.1%,
Baptist 5.9%,
Pentecostal 5.3%,
Seventh-day Adventist 4.6%;
other 7.4%.
looks like protestants and other religions are increasing in numbers.
some other information on haiti:
Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. 80% of the population lives in abject poverty....widespread unemployment and underemployment; more than two-thirds of the labor force do not have formal jobs (2002 est.)
Religion
The official religion of Haiti is Roman Catholicism, but the constitution allows the free choice of religion..[...]....Although the official religion is respected, most Haitians are believers of voodoo (voudou, or vodun), a religion whose gods (loas) are derived from West African religions. Most practitioners do not find any contradiction between voodoo, which is above all a family cult, and Roman Catholicism.
Protestant ministers, however, consider their religion to be incompatible with the practice of voodoo. There are many Protestant sects because, in addition to the older denominations established in the early 19th century (Methodists, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians), new sects came to Haiti during and after the U.S. occupation (1915-34), including Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, and Mormons.
According to the CIA factbook, the religious breakdown of haiti is as follows:
Roman Catholic 80%, Protestant 16% (Baptist 10%, Pentecostal 4%, Adventist 1%, other 1%), none 1%, other 3% (1982)
That means 4% are not christian.
So what if they are shoving christianity down the orphan's throats...only 4% of them arent christian anyways. These guys need as much help as humanly possible.
edit: okay new percentages for 1995:
Religious affiliation (1995)
Roman Catholic 68.5%;
Protestant 24.1%,
Baptist 5.9%,
Pentecostal 5.3%,
Seventh-day Adventist 4.6%;
other 7.4%.
looks like protestants and other religions are increasing in numbers.
some other information on haiti:
Haiti is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. 80% of the population lives in abject poverty....widespread unemployment and underemployment; more than two-thirds of the labor force do not have formal jobs (2002 est.)
Religion
The official religion of Haiti is Roman Catholicism, but the constitution allows the free choice of religion..[...]....Although the official religion is respected, most Haitians are believers of voodoo (voudou, or vodun), a religion whose gods (loas) are derived from West African religions. Most practitioners do not find any contradiction between voodoo, which is above all a family cult, and Roman Catholicism.
Protestant ministers, however, consider their religion to be incompatible with the practice of voodoo. There are many Protestant sects because, in addition to the older denominations established in the early 19th century (Methodists, Episcopalians, and Presbyterians), new sects came to Haiti during and after the U.S. occupation (1915-34), including Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, and Mormons.
LOL..
So, what year did Missionaries start visiting Haiti?
Do we have religious breakdowns by year going back that far?
I didn't justify lying. I represented my view of your attitude. I didn't feel a need to quote you directly. Now I see you're just trying to turn this into a grade school playground, so I'll let you go back to playing in your dirt.
I won't deny that people have done horrible things with Christianity. But I think it's absurd to use that as an argument against the validity of these missionaries' work. The abuses of religion in no way nullify the good done by humanitarian relief efforts. And I still don't see what the difference is between denying someone empathy for being beaten up and saying they deserved it. Maybe you can explain to me how that's significantly the same as accusing me of being a racist or condoning the holocaust, but seeing how you just pulled that out of your nether regions, I don't think I'll be waiting all that anxiously for your response.
Carry on. Sorry to hear about your friends, OP. Regardless of how successful they are in their relief effort, I find it horrible that they were beaten and robbed, and I don't understand why people have to be unsympathetic. Looking after orphans and widows in their distress is what James discusses as "pure religion." I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.
I won't deny that people have done horrible things with Christianity. But I think it's absurd to use that as an argument against the validity of these missionaries' work. The abuses of religion in no way nullify the good done by humanitarian relief efforts. And I still don't see what the difference is between denying someone empathy for being beaten up and saying they deserved it. Maybe you can explain to me how that's significantly the same as accusing me of being a racist or condoning the holocaust, but seeing how you just pulled that out of your nether regions, I don't think I'll be waiting all that anxiously for your response.
Carry on. Sorry to hear about your friends, OP. Regardless of how successful they are in their relief effort, I find it horrible that they were beaten and robbed, and I don't understand why people have to be unsympathetic. Looking after orphans and widows in their distress is what James discusses as "pure religion." I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.
Originally posted by: Eli
LOL..
So, what year did Missionaries start visiting Haiti?
Do we have religious breakdowns by year going back that far?
LoL. i added some info right after you replied to my post. i cant find anymore information on religious breakdown.
I have some friends in Haiti and i can tell you that they live in such crappy conditions that having religion shoved down their throats is the least of their concerns.
[Ladies Man's voice]Ummm yeahhh, I'm not a big fan of missionaries. Next caller...[/Ladies Man's voice]
Your view of my attitude has nothing to do with my actual attitude, and the need to quote me directly wouldn't have allowed you to formulate it. You have that rare and baffling ability to blasphemize the concept of logic in forming a negative opinion of anyone who disagrees with you, as I've seen in various posts; you should PM Riprorin, you and he have a lot in common.
I agree fully, but nobody is making this argument.
See my comment concerning Riprorin.
I pulled it out of my nether regions just as you did when lying about what I'd said
Glad you found it funny, it really was tongue in cheek.. Although, it would be an interesting study.
Yeah, you're probably right.. And like I said, sometimes.. Any hope is good hope.
No I didn't. You'd have a basis for telling me I have something against black people if this were a thread about black people getting beaten up and robbed and I said I didn't feel sorry for them because they were probably peddling drugs, as black people do.
This is about missionaries getting beaten up and robbed and you're saying you don't feel sorry for them because they're pushing their faith on other people.
Still not getting it? I don't have a negative opinion of people who disagree with me. See my comment concerning muslims. I have a negative opinion of people who deny their humanity for the sake of a good flame. I don't really believe you're as heartless as you come across in this thread, although I understand being put off when you think you're being solicited for money. I entered the thread after that had been taken out.
If you agree with my point about religion and humanitarian relief efforts, why don't you care when the administrators of such an effort are being beaten and robbed? Help me understand. I'd prefer to believe you have a soul. If I've misunderstood your attitude about the situation, by all means, clarify.
This is about missionaries getting beaten up and robbed and you're saying you don't feel sorry for them because they're pushing their faith on other people.
Still not getting it? I don't have a negative opinion of people who disagree with me. See my comment concerning muslims. I have a negative opinion of people who deny their humanity for the sake of a good flame. I don't really believe you're as heartless as you come across in this thread, although I understand being put off when you think you're being solicited for money. I entered the thread after that had been taken out.
If you agree with my point about religion and humanitarian relief efforts, why don't you care when the administrators of such an effort are being beaten and robbed? Help me understand. I'd prefer to believe you have a soul. If I've misunderstood your attitude about the situation, by all means, clarify.
the OP isnt soliciting money, just compassion and advice. Geez...whats with the hostility in the thread.
oh sheet..its like 2.5hours past end of work hours. why am i still surfing ATOT at the office?
oh sheet..its like 2.5hours past end of work hours. why am i still surfing ATOT at the office?
JulesMaximus
No Lifer
- Jul 3, 2003
- 74,589
- 986
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Apparently he was soliciting financial support at the beginning, and then the AT moderator removed that part. Gurck brought that to my attention after I cracked down on him for saying he didn't feel compassion and sure wouldn't offer financial support because people were peddling their faith along with food, clothes, and shelter. I didn't see anything in the original post about asking for financial support, so I didn't understand that part.
This seems to be the main point of contention. If you won't concede the obvious; that lack of empathy != feeling they deserved it, then we can really only go back & forth.
I've never said they deserved it at all, much less made the argument that they do because bad things have been done in the name of christianity in the past. I made the argument that I feel no empathy for them, as they were engaged in an amoral act and knew the risks involved. How do you feel about the girl who recently jumped off a building in Florida and is now sueing the building owner?
Oh, and I don't have a soul - none of us do
I would love to help people in impoverished nations.... Perhaps on a slightly less direct level... Studying their soil ecology to help them grow better crops, or something..
Although I do admit I have problems with it on some levels, mostly because.. we have enough problems to be solved here.. But I still like the idea of spreading knowledge, understanding and hope to people that would be overwhelmingly happy to recieve it.
And it wouldn't have a damn thing to do with [religion].
You should have said "Foreign aid workers" or something. Seriously. This thread would be COMPLETELY different...............
Originally posted by: Gurck
This seems to be the main point of contention. If you won't concede the obvious; that lack of empathy != feeling they deserved it, then we can really only go back & forth.
I've never said they deserved it at all, much less made the argument that they do because bad things have been done in the name of christianity in the past. I made the argument that I feel no empathy for them, as they were engaged in an amoral act and knew the risks involved. How do you feel about the girl who recently jumped off a building in Florida and is now sueing the building owner?
Oh, and I don't have a soul - none of us do
Amoral: Lacking moral sensibility; not caring about right and wrong.
I don't see how missionaries running an orphanage are engaging in an amoral act, and therefore, I don't understand your lack of empathy. But I recognize now that you think there's a distinction between not caring and assuming they got what was coming to them. I still don't see the difference, but I think you really do. Here's my impression:
OP: "Some friends of mine were serving as missionaries in Haiti and got beat up and robbed."
Gurck: "I don't care."
OP: "Why?"
Gurck: "Because they were engaging in an amoral act and knew the risks involved."
How is it preposterous of me to interpret that as: "they got what was coming to them" = "they deserved it"?
About the girl who jumped off a building in Florida and is suing the building owner, I think she should seek professional help, and I'm sorry that she'd do something that dumb. I don't think the building owner owes her anything. I also don't see how this relates to people who are taking a lot of personal risk in an effort to help other people.
You don't think you have a soul? Where do your emotions come from? Are they just chemical inbalances that you dismiss as illogical and irrelevant?
I didn't say "I don't care", I said I can't bring myself to feel empathy for them. Here we have another point of contention; you see missionaries as wonderful things, since they help to spread your religion, and for that very reason I see them as amoral. I have to wonder if you'd feel the same were they programs preaching atheism or devil worship, but doing the same things in other respects.
Hehe, another topic for another thread.. but yes, I believe emotions are the result of chemicals. I don't dismiss them as illogical and irrelevant though. It's sort of like enjoying a movie despite knowing it's a work of fiction.
Err.. lol
Your first mistake is blowing off the idea of not having a soul like it's illogical or irrelevant...
The tone in your 2nd sentance. Who on Earth would "dismiss" their emotions.. even if they did believe that they were "just" "chemical [imbalances]"? Why does it have to be an "imbalance" if it's not from the soul? I've never heard the idea that our emotions are from the soul, so I'm actually kinda curious.
There is nothing wrong with dismissing emotions if you believe that they are illogical or irrelevant. It happens all the time. You probably do it a dozen times a day without even realizing it. Police offiers and other such high stress occupation employed people do. The people that actually act out on their [often extreme] emotions are the ones that are considered to have some sort of problem, like a chemical imbalance.
Emotions are a physical brain thing. I am sure there are pretty indepth understandings about our emotional systems...
If there's an argument for a "soul", it's "the little voice inside".... But that probably has a scientific explination too.
I chose not to think about such things, since it doesen't matter. It's impossible to know for sure, at least from the standpoint of now. That's why it's called a belief.
Originally posted by: Eli
Err.. lol
Your first mistake is blowing off the idea of not having a soul like it's illogical or irrelevant...
Why does it have to be an "imbalance" if it's not from the soul? I've never heard the idea that our emotions are from the soul, so I'm actually kinda curious.
There is nothing wrong with dismissing emotions if you believe that they are illogical or irrelevant. It happens all the time. You probably do it a dozen times a day without even realizing it. Police offiers and other such high stress occupation employed people do. The people that actually act out on their [often extreme] emotions are the ones that are considered to have some sort of problem, like a chemical imbalance.
Emotions are a physical brain thing. I am sure there are pretty indepth understandings about our emotional systems...
If there's an argument for a "soul", it's "the little voice inside".... But that probably has a scientific explination too.
I chose not to think about such things, since it doesen't matter. It's impossible to know for sure, at least from the standpoint of now. That's why it's called a belief.
Oh, I didn't blow it off. Those questions were actually raised out of curiosity, not from persuasion. I do believe that people have souls, but I don't think it's illogical to believe that a soul doesn't exist.
To answer your question, I would. I've dismissed my emotions as being irrelevant many times because they were illogical chemical imbalances. I tend to prefer my thoughts to my feelings because they "make sense" to me. Emotions cause me to be more impulsive and do things that I might regret later. A more balanced view in practice would be to consider both emotions and thoughts carefully... but anyway, this is a digression. Suffice it to say that I wasn't trying to blow anyone off. It was an aside.
Ok, here's my interpretation of that. No empathy = apathy = you don't care. That's how I was reading it.
And no, I don't think all missionaries are wonderful things since they help spread my religion. Not all missionaries spread my religion. Probably more missionaries are out there spreading stuff I don't believe than are out there spreading something I do believe. That's not the issue with me. It's what they're doing. Orphanages. If mormons had established an orphanage in Haiti and they'd gotten beaten and robbed, I'd feel the same way about it, even though they'd be spreading something I don't believe... because they would have been persecuted while trying to do something to better the world. Devil worship is a bit more strange example since I can't see devil worshippers setting up orphanages. Atheism isn't something to be preached, but I'm sure the focus of atheists setting up orphanages wouldn't be so they could tell people who were down on their luck that there was no God. I don't think I'd have an issue with that. I'd still feel empathy if they were in Haiti trying to make kids' lives better and wound up getting up beaten or robbed. It's a crime against humanity. Has nothing to do with their faith in my opinion.
I like your view on emotions.
oh..hmm..i didnt know that part was originally there. okay then.....i take my statement back. i suppose it is pretty tame for the original post.
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