palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
you should lose all credibility right there.. like i said, didnt we ALL learn from that debacle?! Are you looking for "payback" or "revenge"? Do you consider that a mature and responsible reaction to the opportunities the Dems have been given? bah... you just proved my original point.
That's where you're wrong because you do not have any insight or understanding of the psyche outside of the U.S. The entire world would point, laugh, and consider us "weaker" for it...especially our sworn enemies! They did so when we went after Clinton for ridiculous reasons, and they'll do so again when they see us bickering amongst ourselves rather than focusing on the real problems in Iraq and elsewhere.
You probably need to study geopolitics and cultures outside of the U.S. a bit more, but trust me, because I have/do study those subjects every day of my life, the majority of the world would see the witch-hunt as a weakness.
You can have your trials and prosecutions 5-10 years from now, if you still think they're necessary. (There is no statute of limitations on "war crimes"). In the meantime, we need to focus on the real-world here-and-now in Iraq and elsewhere.
Doing anything else would be a criminal act in and of itself.
trenchfoot
Lifer
- Aug 5, 2000
- 15,839
- 8,430
- 136
yes yes yes let's all play fair and be nicey nicey now that the shoe is on the other foot.
there is a price to pay for behaving in a manner that forces the country to change it's leadership in congress. like it or not, some republicans will have to be offered up as sacrifice (rummy already being the first) to appease those voters that made this huge mid-stream change possible.
in this regard, the republicans should feel very fortunate that the presidency was not also up for grabs this time around, or we very well may have at this time a complete reversal of what was just a few days ago. how's that for a neocon nightmare come true?
if the presidency was also in the hands of the dems, the mother of all "witch hunts" would have already commenced with extreme vengeance and determination, and probably with the blessings of many of those voters that decided a change was necessary in how our country was being run.
to be sure, for a myriad of reasons, some of which includes friendships from across the aisle, horse-trading, bank-rolling, leverage, dems being implicated somehow, etc. most repubs would escape the noose, hoosegow or being run out of dodge. it does seem logical though that to appease the bloodlust, some heads would have to roll in that scenario.
even without the loss of the presidency, to square things up more reprimands and resignations are sure to follow as the republicans ability to hide and bury nefarious deeds have been lost along with their loss of control over congress. rather inevitable, don't you think?
there is a price to pay for behaving in a manner that forces the country to change it's leadership in congress. like it or not, some republicans will have to be offered up as sacrifice (rummy already being the first) to appease those voters that made this huge mid-stream change possible.
in this regard, the republicans should feel very fortunate that the presidency was not also up for grabs this time around, or we very well may have at this time a complete reversal of what was just a few days ago. how's that for a neocon nightmare come true?
if the presidency was also in the hands of the dems, the mother of all "witch hunts" would have already commenced with extreme vengeance and determination, and probably with the blessings of many of those voters that decided a change was necessary in how our country was being run.
to be sure, for a myriad of reasons, some of which includes friendships from across the aisle, horse-trading, bank-rolling, leverage, dems being implicated somehow, etc. most repubs would escape the noose, hoosegow or being run out of dodge. it does seem logical though that to appease the bloodlust, some heads would have to roll in that scenario.
even without the loss of the presidency, to square things up more reprimands and resignations are sure to follow as the republicans ability to hide and bury nefarious deeds have been lost along with their loss of control over congress. rather inevitable, don't you think?
I disagree, but for different reasons then most people. I don't think we should investigate the run up to war because Bush lied about it. (although to be fair, he probably did... or was at least willfully ignorant).
The presidency needs to be put back in its place, and fast. Congress as it exists right now is in significant danger of being rendered irrelevant, and needs to re exert its constitutional authority to oversee and regulate the executive branch. Honestly, this is far more important to the future health of our nation then what happens in Iraq. (I also believe that investigating the president will not somehow make Iraq be worse off.. hell, it might even help.)
That this oversight would come over a war is apt, as there is no greater responsibility that congress as abdicated to the executive then its war powers. I hope it brings with it a return to the rule of law that has been so sorely lacking since September 11th.
The presidency needs to be put back in its place, and fast. Congress as it exists right now is in significant danger of being rendered irrelevant, and needs to re exert its constitutional authority to oversee and regulate the executive branch. Honestly, this is far more important to the future health of our nation then what happens in Iraq. (I also believe that investigating the president will not somehow make Iraq be worse off.. hell, it might even help.)
That this oversight would come over a war is apt, as there is no greater responsibility that congress as abdicated to the executive then its war powers. I hope it brings with it a return to the rule of law that has been so sorely lacking since September 11th.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
I very much disagree with palehorse74---who quite clearly does not understand how congress works. While you pay attention to the congressman or the senator---the real work goes on at the staff level---where facts are checked--nose are counted--and overall strategy is decided.---when all the thankless grunts get their work done---then the big wig comes in to hog the credit and do the photo-ops.
But just one fairly small groups of congressional staffers can make it a somewhat full time job to ask the right what did you know and when did you know it type questions---all they lack is the subpoena powers and they can hit the ground running---if and when it ever comes to an actual congressional committee manned by actual elected legislators---99.99% of what will be said is already known---and its all for show.
Meanwhile---and in parallel---other staffers will be working on what could be called future agenda change projects---so no one need worry that congress will do one at the expense of the other
But just one fairly small groups of congressional staffers can make it a somewhat full time job to ask the right what did you know and when did you know it type questions---all they lack is the subpoena powers and they can hit the ground running---if and when it ever comes to an actual congressional committee manned by actual elected legislators---99.99% of what will be said is already known---and its all for show.
Meanwhile---and in parallel---other staffers will be working on what could be called future agenda change projects---so no one need worry that congress will do one at the expense of the other
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
Very well put - I couldn't agree more. An investigation of this nature would more than likely end like the Clinton impeachment - the public would be more pissed at Congress than at the President.
The Bushwhackos' war of lies is the direct cause of thousands of deaths and tens of thousands of wounded American troops, tens or even hundreds of thousand other dead and wounded and trillions of dollars in debt your great grandchildren will still be paying off.
History tells us that even the good guys we hold ourselves out to be in the world have had to face war to protect ourselves when we were attacked. That was not the case in Iraq. This was an elective, preemptive war, and one after another, every "reason" they gave in their various lame attempts to justify their actions has been proven to be LIES.
In pursuing their war of lies, they have shredded the rights guaranteed to every American citizen by the U.S. Constitution.
When these criminals are convicted of treason, in the spirit of compassion, I don't want to them get the death penalty. I'd be happy just to give them an all expenses paid vacation for a few years at the lovely downtown Guantanamo Hilton, complete with a free passes for the waterboard ride.
You know waterboarding isn't torture. The Bushwhackos said so, themselves, so you know it's got to be true.
History tells us that even the good guys we hold ourselves out to be in the world have had to face war to protect ourselves when we were attacked. That was not the case in Iraq. This was an elective, preemptive war, and one after another, every "reason" they gave in their various lame attempts to justify their actions has been proven to be LIES.
In pursuing their war of lies, they have shredded the rights guaranteed to every American citizen by the U.S. Constitution.
When these criminals are convicted of treason, in the spirit of compassion, I don't want to them get the death penalty. I'd be happy just to give them an all expenses paid vacation for a few years at the lovely downtown Guantanamo Hilton, complete with a free passes for the waterboard ride.
You know waterboarding isn't torture. The Bushwhackos said so, themselves, so you know it's got to be true.
Payback!! Me want revenge?? PLEASE, give me a break. Why did it take 8 years and a switch in the control of congress for the NeoCons (who are still trying to blame Clinton for everything they can) to "see the light?? You know, us "liburhals" have no ideas, we just operate oin a "monkey see, monkey do" philosphy.
So get off your high horse.
What a load of partisian crap. Trust you?? No, trust me, it will work fine. You only seem to understand a very narrow view of how the real world works, which I find so typical of a goverment employee. I can have my trials in 5 or 10 years?? Yeah, and the Republican congressmen believe in term limits..... again. :laugh:
Perhaps, but when I believe someone in a public position of authority blatanly lied to me in order to start a war, I want to find out the truth, because my decisions are only as good as the information I have access to.
To me it's more a matter of principle then anything to do with politics.
Originally posted by: Harvey
The Bushwhackos' war of lies is the direct cause of thousands of deaths and tens of thousands of wounded American troops, tens or even hundreds of thousand other dead and wounded and trillions of dollars in debt your great grandchildren will still be paying off.
History tells us that even the good guys we hold ourselves out to be in the world have had to face war to protect ourselves when we were attacked. That was not the case in Iraq. This was an elective, preemptive war, and one after another, every "reason" they gave in their lame attempt they made to justify their actions has been proven to be LIES.
In pursuing their war of lies, they have shredded the rights guaranteed to every American citizen by the U.S. Constitution.
When these criminals are convicted of treason, in the spirit of compassion, I don't want to them get the death penalty. I'd be happy just to give them an all expenses paid vacation for a few years at the lovely downtown Guantanamo Hilton, complete with a free passes for the waterboard ride.
You know waterboarding isn't torture. The Bushwhackos said so, themselves, so you know it's got to be true.
Better yet, just drop them off in Sadr City.
"you should lose all credibility right there.. like i said, didnt we ALL learn from that debacle?! Are you looking for "payback" or "revenge"? Do you consider that a mature and responsible reaction to the opportunities the Dems have been given? bah... you just proved my original point. "
Umm, all Clinton did was have a blowjob. Bush and his administration has systematically misrepresented the truth every step of the way. From WMDs to Mission Accomplished, to Last Throes, to handing over the secutiry of Iraq to Iraqi police in the 2004 election. Add to this, NSA spying WITHOUT FISA warrants, pork bills stuffed into every war bill, outing a CIA agent for political gain... if you can't see the difference between this and a blowjob, I feel sorry for you.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Clinton's major crime was actually lying under oath, but hey, don't let that stop you and yours when you dismiss it as "no big deal." That said, the Clinton witch-hunts were a mistake and a mess. The same will be true if they try to go after the Republicans now... you're a fool to think that it would be anything besides a circus, and those in power will walk away unscathed in the end regardless of how much "proof" you think exists somewhere.
Why? because allegations of actual criminal conduct on the part of the Bush Admin will be very difficult to prove, if not impossible. Why do you think Pelosi stated that there would be nowitch-hunt? I'll tell you why: it's because the Dems have done the math, and they've concluded that the likelihood of actual prosecutions or impeachment is next to nil... and they would know because nothing on earth would please them more than sticking it to Bush, so you can bet your a$$ that they have dug as deep as humanly possible!
use your damn head and realize the opportunities your party has at their disposal right now... they have a chance, once and for all, to show us that they can "do it all better." In order to do so, they need to stay focused on the major issues, and sticking it to Bush isn't one of those...
that said, the 100-hour agenda Pelosi described is awfully void of GWOT-specific issues beyond the further implementation of the 911 commission's recommendations. How the hell did Minimum Wage increases and Student Aid reform rank higher than the war on terror?! The Dems need to get their priorities in order, and they need to do so quickly...
While amnesty is not listed I would bet that comes up in those 100 hours, though truthfully it does not have to be a Pelosi initiative. I can thank my republican president for that. :disgust:
Considering the seriousness of the allegations, yes. While they are still in power I want to put Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeild, maybe even Powell under oath and have them testify to what the truth is on the record. As they like to say about the patriot act, if they're innocent then what are they afraid of?
I ask myself, what would the NeoCon's want if the roles were reversed?? They'd be screaming bloody murder, so let them testify UNDER OATH now and then maybe we can wait until after they are out of office to further pursue the investigation.
They should have had enough time by now to get their story straight, don't you think?
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Well let's just stop and thank god that the newly elected Dems in Congress are at least a smidgeon smarter than you... because you're not going to get your witch-hunt bro... It aint gonna happen... nope... sorry... find a new battle cry or die holding your breath... the choice is yours!
How often does the right thing actually happen the way it should? Truth is a rare thing so I won't be holding my breath as to the outc9ome, but "let me make myself perfectly clear", I support further investigation.
As far as how "smart" the newly elected Dem's are, well they aren't even in office yet so we will have to wait and see, now won't we. Sometimes truth is stranger then fiction.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
- 136
How can the Dems do that when they were in on the deception? You need to check past statements and voting records.
BTW, Clinton did not commit perjury. It's a complicated legal issue, but essentially, he did not commit perjury by the rules that were agreed upon for the deposition.
Good to know you consider the investigation into Clinton as a circus, but I posted this question to you in another thread, and the best you could manage was total denial that the Bushwackos committed any crimes. Just to make sure you can really say that with a straight face, I'll repost what I said to give you another opportunity to express your complete state of denial with a straight face. I said:
If you don't think starting a war based entirely on lies that, by definition, will foreseeably include the death and wounding of American troops and innocent civilians constitutes a crime, you really need to consider the fact that unjustifiable actions causing death, either by intent or with callous disregard for the possiblity of such death constitutes murder in almost every jurisdiction in the nation, if not every one of them.It's all well and good to wrap yourself in "conservative values" like "law and order" and punishment to fit the crime... until it comes to the worst possible crimes against every citizen of the United States. THEN, you want to move on and sweep it under the rug as if we could just ignore the catastrophic damage they've wreaked against the nation and the world.
These assholes willingly and wantonly caused the deaths of thousands of Americans, they have condemned tens or hunderds of thousands of other Americans to lives of pain and impairment and otherwise shortened by their wounds, and they have imposed burdens upon yet hundreds of thousands more of their family members and friends who will bear the added burdens of caring for them in their suffering.
I'm pretty sure you'd want to see any individuals convicted of murder, rape, kidnapping, child abuse, bank robbery, drag racing or littering given the punishment specified by law for their crimes. That's the way our society deals with those who violate the laws of our nation and its various localities.
What kind of human being are you that you are so willing to "forgive and forget" the evil done by those whose crimes are of such monstrous magnitude that they have forever indelibly scarred and stained the history of our nation and the entire world? :shocked:
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
- George Santayana
You may also need to consider that, like every President before him, George W. Bush swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America, and since he took office, he has betrayed his oath of office and methodically shredded the Constitution he swore to uphold.
George W. Bush and his entire adminstration have been so incompetentt in securing our nation from attack on our own soil by strengthening security of our ports and infrastructure. In short, he has thoroughly betrayed this nation.
George W. Bush is a greater threat to the security of this nation than Osama Bin Laden because, unlike Bin Laden, he is here on our own soil. We can only hope the Democratic majority in Congress will rein him in and call him to account for his many crimes against us.
No crimes? BULLSH8! :thumbsdown: :| :thumbsdown:
As I've pointed out innumerable times, Democrats aren't my party.
Clinton lied under oath, but he should never have been put there.. he was put there over a blowjob. Bush has not been put under oath even once, not even for the running ups to 9/11.
I'll repeat again what you continue to ignore:
Bush and his administration has systematically misrepresented the truth every step of the way. From WMDs to Mission Accomplished, to Last Throes, to handing over the secutiry of Iraq to Iraqi police in the 2004 election. Add to this, NSA spying WITHOUT FISA warrants, pork bills stuffed into every war bill, outing a CIA agent for political gain... if you can't see the difference between this and a blowjob, I feel sorry for you.
Starbuck1975
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2005
- 14,698
- 1,909
- 126
No, no and no...any such hearings would drag for the next two years, and potentially hurt the Democrats' chances for taking the White House in 2008.
The Democrats need to focus on their vision for America's future.
The Democrats need to focus on their vision for America's future.
great waste more time and money on endless snipe hunts.
That is not going to show the american public the Dems will get the job done.
But it may usher them out sooner. People are tired of that crap.
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