Healthcare Industry Profit Margins...

[Patranus]

The fact of the matter is that it is a product that people don't use every day or isn't neat and shiny so they don't buy it. When they need it, it is too late and try and blame someone else. It is the typical liberal MO. Someone else fault.

Seeing as the industry has net profit margins well below the average for the S&P 500 it is clear that they are not gouging people like some claim. The same could be said about big bad oil companies.

People feel entitled to health care while they pay for luxury items like computers, cars, internet, cable tv, 100 pairs of shoes, and food. By food i mean what they 'want' not what they need. You can live off Roman that is 4 for $1.

Life is full of choices, we shouldn't be rewarded for making the wrong choices.

 

[spidey07]

I'm honestly confused about what industry and people we are supposed to hate according to our new dictator.

Oil?
Finance?
People that make profit?
CEOs?
Energy companies?
Telecom?
People that make more than 250k?
Insurance companies?

Facts be damned.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Patranus
The fact of the matter is that it is a product that people don't use every day or isn't neat and shiny so they don't buy it. When they need it, it is too late and try and blame someone else. It is the typical liberal MO. Someone else fault.

Seeing as the industry has net profit margins well below the average for the S&P 500 it is clear that they are not gouging people like some claim. The same could be said about big bad oil companies.

People feel entitled to health care while they pay for luxury items like computers, cars, internet, cable tv, 100 pairs of shoes, and food. By food i mean what they 'want' not what they need. You can live off Roman that is 4 for $1.

Life is full of choices, we shouldn't be rewarded for making the wrong choices.

BS. A year ago while Oil Corps were making Record Profits, people were trying to defend them with the same lame "Profit Margins" argument.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Patranus
The fact of the matter is that it is a product that people don't use every day or isn't neat and shiny so they don't buy it. When they need it, it is too late and try and blame someone else. It is the typical liberal MO. Someone else fault.

Seeing as the industry has net profit margins well below the average for the S&P 500 it is clear that they are not gouging people like some claim. The same could be said about big bad oil companies.

People feel entitled to health care while they pay for luxury items like computers, cars, internet, cable tv, 100 pairs of shoes, and food. By food i mean what they 'want' not what they need. You can live off Roman that is 4 for $1.

Life is full of choices, we shouldn't be rewarded for making the wrong choices.

BS. A year ago while Oil Corps were making Record Profits, people were trying to defend them with the same lame "Profit Margins" argument.

Record profits are not directly related to profit margins. Oil companies made such large sums of money because of the VOLUME of business. The lower the profit margins the higher the risk - see Exxons last quarter.

 

[ohnoes]

Isn't a significant root cause really medical costs themselves? their profits are low b/c they pay out the vast majority of their revenue in hospital bills. I see my bill for a 15m doctor visit in which he did nothing, and my insurance company gets bill $500 for the visit. a bit absurd if you ask me.

At the same time, insurance companies are for profit & they have every right to charge based on risk, but that leaves alot of people uninsured or unable to afford insurance, and drives up costs for the rest of us when they go into the emergency room, feeding back into that cycle.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: JayhaVVKU

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

What, specifically, does any type of "insurance" company create? Are you against ALL forms of privatized insurance, or just healthcare? If so, why?

I am against health insurance because it's immoral and wellness is a right of EVERYONE.

I am for car insurance because driving is a privelage.

I am for homeowners insurance because owning a house is a privelage.

Etc.

ANYONE can get medical care in this country regardless of their age, legal status, sex, race, or ability to pay...RIGHT NOW...

NOT TRUE.

If you go to the hospital and do not have insurance, all they have to do is STABILIZE you (and keep you stable long enough to throw you out on the street). They do not have to treat you until you are better/cured.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
someone has Fox News on right now

It's so f'n ridiculous, my mother works in the insurance industry, so does an old friend. The way the progressives portray them is so far from reality. Insurance businesses are *supposed* to collect a lot of money. They have a huge liability they must cover. You don't know when catastrophe is going to hit, the insurer must also be prepared for such a time. Then there are so many people trying to scam private insurers, just wait until the public option comes.

But the most telling is the Democrat politicians who themselves specifically say they are pushing for this as the stepping stone to a full government run system. That's why we can't get any details out of them!

What about the insurance companies that rake in a ton of money without a catastrophe then refuse to write policies or only write certain policies? They made their money off people (policyholders) then dropped them from coverage. My neighborhood frequently has 1 insurance option (Citizens) because private insurance companies will not write policies anymore. The area I'm in (Tampa Bay Area) hasn't been hit by a major storm in something like 80 years.

Oh, and *shocking* Patranus is parroting Fox. Absolutely shocking. :roll:

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

I live just fine without any Apple products.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: RoborOh, and *shocking* Patranus is parroting Fox. Absolutely shocking. :roll:

Maybe you should look at all news sources and make an objective opinion instead of discounting something because it is on Fox News.

I wonder why Fox News has more viewers than CNN and MSNBC COMBINED?

I wonder why Fox News has seen record high viewership month after month while CNN and MSNBC has been losing record amounts viewers each month?

Could it be that they painted Obama as something he is not and now the American people are waking up? I don't know, just a thought.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Apples designs and markets their products which means they created the product and the image. FoxConn just makes the components per Apple specification.

Health insurance companies are more akin to an independent cell phone store (with really awful customer service) selling the iPhone. They're the middle man.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

We have two large health conglomerates similar to Kaiser in my part of the country. In both cases, the Health Insurance component is a completely separate business entity from the Health Care component. They have separate finances, IT, for/non profit statuses, etc. The health care group deals with the the health insurance group the same way they deal with any other insurer. I've had to fight with the health insurance group to pay the similarly named health care group. And to make things more interesting, I now have health insurance from one conglomerate and use the other conglomerate's doctor groups, clinics, and hospitals.

Kaiser is most likely similarly divided.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Does Apple make Life/Death decisions about their Customers?

No, the difference is that people would rather spend their money on a shiny new computer, iPod, or iPhone and not something important like healthcare. After spending their money on something pretty much meaningless, they bitch when they get sick because they didn't make the correct choice to get healthcare.

How much health care can I buy for $200?

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: Phokus
So if insurance companies weren't kicking expensive sick people off their rolls and had to cover people with pre-existing conditions, they might be in the red? AHAHAHAHAHAHA

That, combined with their sky high overhead, that is a really sad testament to health insurance in America today.

Why should an insurance company be mandated to cover someone with a pre existing condition? That would be like forcing a life insurance company to insure someone with a terminal illness.

They shouldn't, hence the core problem with our for-profit private insurance system.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

And without FoxConn all of Apples pretty little designs and OS would be stuck in autoCAD.

Take away the buying power of an insurance company and bam, you are paying for the FULL doctors visit and not some $20 co pay. The fact of the matter is that like any other insurance, the large base of users allows for insurance to be paid out to those who need it while the health split the bill until it is their turn to cash in. Economies of scale.

And a single payer system would benefit from even larger economies of scale!

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
It's so hard to give any of you "progressives" the time of day. Your arguments are so beyond what any reasonable person would think.

Health insurance is optional. If you don't like them stealing your money, then don't pay them. Buy your iPod instead. But don't come back bitching when you need that $1 million coverage.

Except that doesn't happen, ever. YOU eat their costs through higher medical bills.

What do you think a government takeover is? Free health care? 100% payout? You think all those proposed newly created government jobs will come at no overhead? At no fraud?

There's no Government take over planned, but if there were, the overhead would be a hell of a lot lower than a for-profit insurer. And there's plenty of fraud in private insurance - they have departments dedicated to finding it along with every typo and zit you ever had.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: senseamp
Government can provide buying power of insurance company without taking a 20% cut of the premium for overhead and profit. If having a large base of users is the main advantage, can get a really large base with universal single payer health care.

All power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You just don't concentrate that much wealth and that much power into a single system. I don't care how efficiently you think it could run.

You like the military, don't you?

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: Patranus

You don't think government bureaucracies have overhead?

Currently implemented UHC by the govt. has much less overhead than for profit insurers do ...

The quality of health care in those countries is less than in the U.S. Quality costs money. We have the best care, what is at debate is paying for that care.

Our care is of variable quality, depending on where you live. Live in the middle of nowhere and you're going to get some old hick country doc.

And you know what "overhead" is? It's someone's job. You know, something that we don't have much of anymore. Seen the latest jobless numbers? All the "waste" you guys are being told is sucked out of us, most of it is going right back into the economy.

Oh, now a conservative cares about jobs but only when it protects the status quo of the insurance CEOs getting huge salaries while denying care.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus
And without FoxConn all of Apples pretty little designs and OS would be stuck in autoCAD.

Because there are no other OEM manufacturer out there :roll:

And there are multiple insurance companies :roll:

And comparing them is like comparing feces from different animals. They all stink.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: senseamp
Government can provide buying power of insurance company without taking a 20% cut of the premium for overhead and profit. If having a large base of users is the main advantage, can get a really large base with universal single payer health care.

All power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You just don't concentrate that much wealth and that much power into a single system. I don't care how efficiently you think it could run.

Well, we concentrated this power in an oligopoly of insurance companies, which are absolutely corrupted. I don't care what you say, but if they shamelessly rescind people's coverage when they get cancer, they have demonstrated that very clearly.

What to .001% of the people out there? People who didn't read what they were buying when they bought it? Sounds like the same people who bought houses without reading the APR mortgage and then bitching because their rates reset and they got foreclosed on.

Yeah, its just life. Its value is just like that of an iPhone or a house. :roll:

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: JayhaVVKU

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

What, specifically, does any type of "insurance" company create? Are you against ALL forms of privatized insurance, or just healthcare? If so, why?

I am against health insurance because it's immoral and wellness is a right of EVERYONE.

I am for car insurance because driving is a privelage.

I am for homeowners insurance because owning a house is a privelage.

Etc.

ANYONE can get medical care in this country regardless of their age, legal status, sex, race, or ability to pay...RIGHT NOW...

You know, next time I need a Tylenol or some Pepto, I'm going to the ER. See how great that is! I encourage you to do the same.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: JayhaVVKU

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

What, specifically, does any type of "insurance" company create? Are you against ALL forms of privatized insurance, or just healthcare? If so, why?

I am against health insurance because it's immoral and wellness is a right of EVERYONE.

I am for car insurance because driving is a privelage.

I am for homeowners insurance because owning a house is a privelage.

Etc.

ANYONE can get medical care in this country regardless of their age, legal status, sex, race, or ability to pay...RIGHT NOW...

You know, next time I need a Tylenol or some Pepto, I'm going to the ER. See how great that is! I encourage you to do the same.

people do this all the time....

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: JayhaVVKU

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

What, specifically, does any type of "insurance" company create? Are you against ALL forms of privatized insurance, or just healthcare? If so, why?

I am against health insurance because it's immoral and wellness is a right of EVERYONE.

I am for car insurance because driving is a privelage.

I am for homeowners insurance because owning a house is a privelage.

Etc.

ANYONE can get medical care in this country regardless of their age, legal status, sex, race, or ability to pay...RIGHT NOW...

You know, next time I need a Tylenol or some Pepto, I'm going to the ER. See how great that is! I encourage you to do the same.

people do this all the time....

And isn't it great!

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: JayhaVVKU

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

What, specifically, does any type of "insurance" company create? Are you against ALL forms of privatized insurance, or just healthcare? If so, why?

I am against health insurance because it's immoral and wellness is a right of EVERYONE.

I am for car insurance because driving is a privelage.

I am for homeowners insurance because owning a house is a privelage.

Etc.

ANYONE can get medical care in this country regardless of their age, legal status, sex, race, or ability to pay...RIGHT NOW...

You know, next time I need a Tylenol or some Pepto, I'm going to the ER. See how great that is! I encourage you to do the same.

404 sarcasm not found. Unless you were INTENDING on quoting truth? Based on previous replies, I doubt it.

 

[Paddington]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: JayhaVVKU

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: JS80
Apple has like a 15% profit margin. Why don't they vilify them?

Apple creates products and services. It contributes to GDP. Insurance companies simply take a cut of healthcare spending, they don't actually provide any health care themselves. If you think they do, go to insurance company headquarters instead of hospital next time you are sick.

Using your logic Apple does not provide a single product. According to you Apple didn't actually create an iPhone, FoxConn created the iPhone. Go to Apples headquarters and try and find the Apply manufacturing plant.

Oh, by the way, Kaiser Permente owns all of its hospitals and is continuously building new hospitals...So yes, insurance companies do "create" healthcare.

Apple designed the iPhone. Most of the value of that phone is in the design, not manufacturing. Take away the Apple design and software, and you have a worthless piece of plastic. So Apple created value and is being rewarded for it.
This cannot be said for insurance companies. They have not created any healthcare product or service, but simply positioned themselves as middleman who takes a cut of the action without doing anything for the consumer's health.
Kaiser is exception, because it is a health-care provider, not just insurer. Purely insurance like Aetna, UnitedHealth, Cigna etc don't create any healthcare. They don't add value to the economy, simply take a cut and are a net drag on the economy.

What, specifically, does any type of "insurance" company create? Are you against ALL forms of privatized insurance, or just healthcare? If so, why?

I am against health insurance because it's immoral and wellness is a right of EVERYONE.

I am for car insurance because driving is a privelage.

I am for homeowners insurance because owning a house is a privelage.

Etc.

ANYONE can get medical care in this country regardless of their age, legal status, sex, race, or ability to pay...RIGHT NOW...

You know, next time I need a Tylenol or some Pepto, I'm going to the ER. See how great that is! I encourage you to do the same.

people do this all the time....

As someone who works in the medical field, at a typical ER probably 30% of the patients that you get are like this. In fact, you even get people who have some wrist pain at home and then call the ambulance (whose forced to respond), they get brought in, then say, "where's my Percocet M***** F*****!" You work on the Saturday night, and upwards of half the patients will be losers like this. :beer:

That's why real Emergence Medicine is one of the worst fields ever. It's got little in common with TV's "ER".

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: SammyJr

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Pens1566

Originally posted by: Patranus

You don't think government bureaucracies have overhead?

Currently implemented UHC by the govt. has much less overhead than for profit insurers do ...

The quality of health care in those countries is less than in the U.S. Quality costs money. We have the best care, what is at debate is paying for that care.

Our care is of variable quality, depending on where you live. Live in the middle of nowhere and you're going to get some old hick country doc.

Do you think UHC will change this?

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: RoborOh, and *shocking* Patranus is parroting Fox. Absolutely shocking. :roll:

Maybe you should look at all news sources and make an objective opinion instead of discounting something because it is on Fox News.

I wonder why Fox News has more viewers than CNN and MSNBC COMBINED?

I wonder why Fox News has seen record high viewership month after month while CNN and MSNBC has been losing record amounts viewers each month?

Could it be that they painted Obama as something he is not and now the American people are waking up? I don't know, just a thought.

The most widely read book on the planet year after year after year is the bible. Guess that means that what the bible says is true.