Headlights question

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Both standard and silverstar 9005 bulbs are 1700 lumens as far as I can tell.

The packaging shows only the nominal bulb spec. It does not show the actual output of the bulbs. The "good" term in the link text only indicates that the bulbs technically fall within the legal range of output. It does not indicate that the bulbs themselves are a good option.

"Extra White" blue-tint output: 1380 Lumens, Long-Life output: 1460 lumens, Plus 50 (equivalent to XtraVision) output: 1750 lumens.

From the same link:

The name-brand "extra white" bulbs mostly produce legal light output, true. But there's a lot of wiggle room in the bulb standards that permit two bulbs of the same format to put out significantly different amounts of For illustration of the principle, take a standard HB5 (9007) bulb, which is legally required to produce 1000 lumens of light from the 55W low beam filament at 12.8v, plus or minus 15 percent. That means that in order to be legally certifiable as conforming to Federal standards, a 9007 bulb in the low beam mode must produce between 850 and 1150 lumens. Most folks want to see better at night, not worse, and the way to do that is to use bulbs that produce the maximum legal amount of light. On a dark road, I want bulbs producing 1150 lumens instead of 850, how 'bout you?

So now, where do these legal "blue" bulbs fit on our 850 to 1150 lumen range? Most times, this information isn't available, for it's often made unavailable by bulb manufacturers. Some of the bulbs come with specification sheets giving a wattage and lumen rating, but these don't list actual output, they simply list the nominal specification contained in the Federal standard. The assumption they want you to make is that the bulb you're holding in your hand actually produces the nominal amount of light. In most cases, with blue glass, they don't. About all that can truthfully be said is that they're safe, they're legal, they're not dangerously poor performers like illegal blue bulbs are, but they do not give an actual performance improvement.

Closing sentence from the page: To get the best possible seeing performance at night, don't choose extra-white bulbs.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: pontifex
they're not misaligned and they're not aimed at the ground. they are designed to throw more light at the ground than up in front like normal headlights. i guess i'll have to look at my manual to see what they are called.

is saturn the only company that uses them? is my model car the only model that uses them? i'm surprised with all the responses so far, no one has ever heard of these.

No such beast. There are two specifications, ECE and US DOT. Neither specification is designed to throw light at the ground. Your headlights are mis-aligned if they are throwing more light at the ground.

ZV

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Short answer: No.

Long answer: There is no legal option for replacing your headlights. Using an overwattage bulb will be illegal as it will throw too many lumens (it will also likely melt the plastic reflectors, bulb mount, and possibly the wiring). However, you can re-aim your headlights. Most likely they are simply misaligned. See link here: http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/aim/aim.html

ZV

This is insane today...I just sent them an email for my H1, HB3/9005, and H3 lights I was coming here to post about that site and how although PIAA's may look more like HID's they don't but out the same amount of light as a good bulb. Plus PIAA's last only a couple hundred hours; most don't realize that. I had the Xtreme Whites on two cars and replaced them at least each year.

Second insanity was I almost posted a jigawatt in the resistor thread...the very next thread I read was the Back to the Future Flux Capacitor is being sold which is 1.2 jigawatts or something.

You should have H11 low beams, HB3/9005 highs and 899 fogs based on a quick search.

The H11 is not the same as the H1, nor similar looking 9xxx series bulbs.

I am going with the Narva Rangepower+50's for my lows and fogs. I am not sure what 9005 lights he carries.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Both standard and silverstar 9005 bulbs are 1700 lumens as far as I can tell.

The Sylvania Silverstars have the same lumens, but they are 'overdriven' to produce that and will only last a fraction of the time as a normal bulb.

There are some 'good blue' lights but all give up life and produce more heat in exchange for looks vs function.

So If Blue Filtration Steals Light, How Do They Still Make These Bulbs Produce Legal Output With The Blue Filter?

The manufacturer optimizes the bulb's efficacy through filament and gas-fill technology, so that the uncoated bulb performs up near the top end of the allowable output range, or even slightly above the maximum allowable output. But the bulb is blue, which "steals" some of the light. If the bulb is designed to produce within the legal light level without the blue, the presence of the blue bulb will reduce the output so it's closer to the bottom end of the allowable output range. If the bulb is designed to produce slightly over the legal light level without the blue, then the bulb will perform nearer the middleof the legal range. Here again, though, we can't have something for nothing.It took reputable bulb makers quite a bit of research and development to produce blue filters that would not drop the bulb output below the legal minimum while still altering the appearance of the operating headlamp enough to appeal to consumers after a "whiter" appearance to their headlamps. The cost? Bulb lifetime. The filament changes made to produce enough extra light that the bulb will still be legal despite the blue-filtration losses mean the filament's lifespan is shortened considerably.

 

[LTC8K6]

I had already been to that site.

1150-850=300

300/12.7=23.6

Only a 23.6 candlepower difference at the most.

If a bulb lasted a fraction of the time, assuming you mean a lot less time rather than 9/10, people would quickly quit buying them.

High beam only bulbs would normally be rated for less life, wouldn't they, since they are not used anywhere near as much?

The guy may indeed be 100% correct, but I don't just accept claims, especially from a bulb salesman.

He didn't say anything bad about the philips bulbs I used, though.

 

[LTC8K6]

The packaging shows only the nominal bulb spec.

The specs are from Sylvania, actually. I have no use for 9005's.

 

[LTC8K6]

Okay, I found the sylvania chart showing the shorter life of the silverstars, but I can't find any chart to verify that the recommended philips/narva lights last longer. Narva is part of philips.

It seems pretty logical, though. More light/less life.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

The packaging shows only the nominal bulb spec.

The specs are from Sylvania, actually. I have no use for 9005's.

The specs quoted by bulb manufacturers are always the nominal bulb spec rating and are not the actual lumen output of the bulb. It doesn't matter that they are "from Sylvania". Sylvania's specs will show the nominal specification, not the actual output.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
I had already been to that site.

1150-850=300

300/12.7=23.6

Only a 23.6 candlepower difference at the most.

1150/850 = 1.35

That means that the brightest bulb allowed by the spec is 35% brighter than the dimmest. That's a damn big swing. You can say that it's "only" 300 lumens, but I'll take the 35% improvement any day of the week.

ZV

 

[LTC8K6]

"That means that the brightest bulb allowed by the spec is 35% brighter than the dimmest. That's a damn big swing. You can say that it's "only" 300 lumens, but I'll take the 35% improvement any day of the week. "

It is only 300 lumens, and that's the max. Most likely it's much less. Few bulbs are likely to be at the extreme ends of the tolerance. Most will be in the middle somewhere.

You have this swing on every bulb, though. Every bulb has such a tolerance.
You have no idea when you buy any bulb which end of it's tolerances it's closer to.

It's also unlikely that you know the exact voltage that your vehicle is delivering to the bulb, which makes a big difference to light output and life.

This is why reputable manufacturers list nominal numbers, because overall they are better for comparing bulbs.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
"That means that the brightest bulb allowed by the spec is 35% brighter than the dimmest. That's a damn big swing. You can say that it's "only" 300 lumens, but I'll take the 35% improvement any day of the week. "

It is only 300 lumens, and that's the max. Most likely it's much less. Few bulbs are likely to be at the extreme ends of the tolerance. Most will be in the middle somewhere.

You have this swing on every bulb, though. Every bulb has such a tolerance.
You have no idea when you buy any bulb which end of it's tolerances it's closer to.

It's also unlikely that you know the exact voltage that your vehicle is delivering to the bulb, which makes a big difference to light output and life.

This is why reputable manufacturers list nominal numbers, because overall they are better for comparing bulbs.

You can believe this in theory, but otherwise has been proven in the automotive world.

IRT the shorter life spans and people not wanting to buy them.

People are buying PIAA bulbs for $80 a set when for $30 they can get much better lighting. Neither option lasts as long as the normal factory lumen bulbs though.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
"That means that the brightest bulb allowed by the spec is 35% brighter than the dimmest. That's a damn big swing. You can say that it's "only" 300 lumens, but I'll take the 35% improvement any day of the week. "

It is only 300 lumens, and that's the max. Most likely it's much less. Few bulbs are likely to be at the extreme ends of the tolerance. Most will be in the middle somewhere.

You have this swing on every bulb, though. Every bulb has such a tolerance.
You have no idea when you buy any bulb which end of it's tolerances it's closer to.

It's also unlikely that you know the exact voltage that your vehicle is delivering to the bulb, which makes a big difference to light output and life.

This is why reputable manufacturers list nominal numbers, because overall they are better for comparing bulbs.

Actually, the variance in performance between "identical" bulbs from the same manufacturer is vary small (for the major players like Osram, GE, Sylvania, etc) and nowhere near the "+/- 15%" allowed by the specification.

As far as knowing the exact voltage, that's irrelevant to comparing bulbs. As long as the bulbs are compared at the same voltages, the percentage difference between light output will remain constant. If one bulb is 20% brighter with 12.5 volts, it will still be 20% brighter when tested at 13.5 volts.

In any case, you're free to continue believing that "ultra white" or "cool blue" or any other tinted junk-bulb is "better". You're wrong, but you're free to continue believing it.

ZV

 

[dpert1]

get HID's

/thread

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: dpert1
get HID's

/thread

There are exactly zero street-legal aftermarket HID kits. The only legal way to add HID lights to a car is if the car originally had HID lights as an option from the factory, which allows you to retrofit the factory optional HID unit (the entire headlight, lens, reflector, everything) to the car.

The "universal" kits that are offered do not work properly.

Link

ZV

 

[LTC8K6]

In any case, you're free to continue believing that "ultra white" or "cool blue" or any other tinted junk-bulb is "better". You're wrong, but you're free to continue believing it.

Well, if you aren't even going to read my posts, I don't see how we can continue this discussion. Nowhere have I even hinted at the idea that such bulbs are better, nor do I believe that they are.

How anyone could come to such a conclusion is beyond me...

 

[LTC8K6]

BTW, the Philips bulbs I installed were 9007HV's, not any junk colored or tinted bulbs.

I linked to the crystalvisions because of the OP's request.

 

[alkemyst]

I am in for:

Narva Rangepower+50® Ultra High Output 55w H1 48334 2 15.50
RangePower+50® Ultra High Output 55w H3 48335 2 15.50
HIR bulbs: 9011 (HIR1) 9011 2 23.95
Reversing (back-up) light -796 2 8.10
Parking, City, Marker, 2886X 5 4.20

Subtotal 147.10
Shipping 8.48
Tax 0.00
Total 155.58

Ordering the 3496/97's when they are all in stock (1156/1157 replacements).

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: pontifex
they're not misaligned and they're not aimed at the ground. they are designed to throw more light at the ground than up in front like normal headlights. i guess i'll have to look at my manual to see what they are called.

is saturn the only company that uses them? is my model car the only model that uses them? i'm surprised with all the responses so far, no one has ever heard of these.

No such beast. There are two specifications, ECE and US DOT. Neither specification is designed to throw light at the ground. Your headlights are mis-aligned if they are throwing more light at the ground.

ZV

so they sold me a new car with misaligned headlights and told me they were a specific type of headlight?

the lights gets spread out more in front of the car and down towards the road. it creates like a wide circle of light on the road. they're different than traditional headlights.


i think i found out what they are called - projector beam headlights.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: pontifex
they're not misaligned and they're not aimed at the ground. they are designed to throw more light at the ground than up in front like normal headlights. i guess i'll have to look at my manual to see what they are called.

is saturn the only company that uses them? is my model car the only model that uses them? i'm surprised with all the responses so far, no one has ever heard of these.

No such beast. There are two specifications, ECE and US DOT. Neither specification is designed to throw light at the ground. Your headlights are mis-aligned if they are throwing more light at the ground.

ZV

so they sold me a new car with misaligned headlights and told me they were a specific type of headlight?

the lights gets spread out more in front of the car and down towards the road. it creates like a wide circle of light on the road. they're different than traditional headlights.


i think i found out what they are called - projector beam headlights.

They sold you a car with mis-aligned headlights. Projector beam headlights must conform to exactly the same beam pattern as any other headlight. If they don't conform to the US-DOT headlight beam pattern specification, they cannot legally be mounted to cars sold for on-road use in the US. The dealership sold you a line of complete bullsh*t when they told you that they were supposed to throw light at the ground.

Almost every car will need its headlights aimed straight from the factory, it's actually more common than not for the headlights to be slightly mis-aligned right off the showroom floor.

ZV

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: pontifex
they're not misaligned and they're not aimed at the ground. they are designed to throw more light at the ground than up in front like normal headlights. i guess i'll have to look at my manual to see what they are called.

is saturn the only company that uses them? is my model car the only model that uses them? i'm surprised with all the responses so far, no one has ever heard of these.

No such beast. There are two specifications, ECE and US DOT. Neither specification is designed to throw light at the ground. Your headlights are mis-aligned if they are throwing more light at the ground.

ZV

so they sold me a new car with misaligned headlights and told me they were a specific type of headlight?

the lights gets spread out more in front of the car and down towards the road. it creates like a wide circle of light on the road. they're different than traditional headlights.


i think i found out what they are called - projector beam headlights.

You aren't really getting more light on the ground...what is happening is the cut-off is more pronounced above horizontal.

Instead of headlights that shine like this: ): your's do this: __:__:

I put hella replacement lights in my 1996 saturn so I could used better bulbs and gain the better light cut off. They don't have to be projectors to get this.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: alkemyst


You aren't really getting more light on the ground...what is happening is the cut-off is more pronounced above horizontal.

Instead of headlights that shine like this: ): your's do this: __:__:

I put hella replacement lights in my 1996 saturn so I could used better bulbs and gain the better light cut off. They don't have to be projectors to get this.

Did you get them hella cheap?

...sorry, that brand always makes me think of NorCal.

I can confirm about the beam pattern. My car has traditional (crappy) headlights without a distinct cutoff, my motorcycle projects a sharp-edged rectangle of light at the road. Aiming is the same for both, the motorcycle just lights up the road more and blinds other drivers less.

 

[alkemyst]

Hella is a leading manufacturer of lights...I am not sure what you mean. If you have sealed beam rectangular (or round) you can get replacement enclosures, http://www.rallylights.com/hella/150mm.asp

 

[LTC8K6]

I just tape a couple of Mag lites on the hood when I need more light.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
I just tape a couple of Mag lites on the hood when I need more light.

Guess you don't need them for anything else now you have your fleshlights.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Hella is a leading manufacturer of lights...I am not sure what you mean. If you have sealed beam rectangular (or round) you can get replacement enclosures, http://www.rallylights.com/hella/150mm.asp

I know what Hella the company is, I was just talking about the multipurpose Cali slang term.

I'm kicking myself for not getting those enclosures. I went for replacement sealed-beam units, and to be honest they suck. Enclosures would have opened up a much better selection of quality lights for me.