Head of Michigan GOP......

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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Here are some of the reasons for 9/11 (Please refer to OBL's Declaration of War on the USA):

* The existence of Israel and Western support for Israel
* Western involvement in the oil business of the ME
* Corrupt and secular leadership throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations.
* Western influence on the leaders previously mentioned throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations
* US troops on Muslim soil...anywhere in the OBL-defined "Lands of Islam"
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Here are some of the reasons for 9/11 (Please refer to OBL's Declaration of War on the USA):

* The existence of Israel and Western support for Israel
* Western involvement in the oil business of the ME
* Corrupt and secular leadership throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations.
* Western influence on the leaders previously mentioned throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations
* US troops on Muslim soil...anywhere in the OBL-defined "Lands of Islam"

I'm not letting you get off that easily, here's the real reason OBL attacked us:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
He seems to get very excited and appears almost irrational when talking about Iraq and needing a ?war resolution? etc. Based on that he seems like the typical anti-war type incapable of discussing anything to do with the war without getting all excited. (Maybe I am wrong, but that is what I get from this one clip.)
I can see how one of W's faithful few could fail to understand someone getting worked up about following the Constitution, rather than just making things up as you go along. "Rule of Law', and all that other obsolete crap that W and Al Gonzales have tried to relegate to the trash bin where they so obviously belong with the parts of the Bill of Rights that we no longer use...
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Phokus
I'm not letting you get off that easily, here's the real reason OBL attacked us:

what's your point? I already know the reasons they attacked us.. I was merely providing references for the thread, not stating an opinion either way with regards to Paul's statements.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
After reading his remarks I don?t think you cut him some slack.
Especially with his bombing Iraq comment.

Osama has been pretty clear that one of his main grievances with the US was our presence in Saudi Arabia.
Why were in Saudi Arabia? Because they asked us to come there after Saddam invaded Kuwait. A lot of people seem to forget that. We didn't invade Saudi Arabia; they invited us for their protection.
Sorry, who invited us into Saudi Arabia? The millions of oppressed/repressed Saudis who live in poverty & have little access to education or the handful of insanely wealthy oil sheiks? Too bad we can't fix mental myopia as easily as ocular myopia.
Life in Saudi Arabia sucks, their solution... attack the United States... ummmm huh?
 

Capitalizt

Banned
Nov 28, 2004
1,513
0
0
It would be a very sad day for America if these Karl Rove intimidation tactics succeed.

Please sign this petition folks..


To: Republican National Committee

Date May 11, 2007

To the Republican National Committee,

WHEREAS, Michigan party chairman Saul Anuzis has announced a petition of Republican National Committee members asking the Republican National Committee to bar Congressman Ron Paul from future debates due to Congressman Paul?s comments in the second Republican presidential debate that Mr. Anuzis characterizes as "off the wall and out of whack";

WHEREAS, the terrorist motivation comments made by Congressman Paul are, at minimum, supported by the following:

The 911 Commission Report: During the 9/11 Commission hearings, Vice Chair Lee Hamilton asked, "What motivated them to do it?" FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald answered, "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States." 9/11 Commission testimony June 16, 2004

One of the countless expert CIA statements: Former CIA Bin Laden Unit Chief Michael Scheuer has bluntly stated, "The politicians really are at great fault for not squaring with the American people. We're being attacked for what we do in the Islamic world, not for who we are or what we believe in or how we live." Lou Dobbs CNN

Osama Bin Laden statement: In response to President George W. Bush?s statement in an Address to a Joint Session of Congress and to the American People, "They hate ... a democratically elected government. ... They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other,?

Bin Laden in a video response stated, "The White House (is) hiding the truth ... the reality is that we are striking them because of their evil and injustice in the whole of the Islamic World, especially in Iraq and Palestine and their occupation of the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries (Arabian Peninsula)."

WHEREAS, Congressman Paul?s statements concerning the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Education spoke to Congressman Paul?s position of reforming and streamlining both organizations to make them more efficient while lessening the expense burden on the U.S. taxpayer ? a true conservative Republican position;

WHEREAS, Congressman Paul represents traditional, conservative republican values more so than any Republican candidate;

WHEREAS, the Republican party is losing membership to other parties due to the abandonment of the traditional, conservative republican platform;

WHEREAS, registered Republican voters and American citizens desire to hear Congressman Paul?s message on these issues and others in his bid for president;

BE IT DECLARED, that the undersigned request the Republican National Committee to support fair election procedures, as well as the views and desires of its members and American citizens, by allowing Congressman Ron Paul full participation in all future debates and election events as a Republican National Committee candidate.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

SIGN THE PETITION HERE (and please pass it along)
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: dphantom
The notion that the US is at fault for 911 is absurb. It's like you saying its a woman's fault she was raped becasue she dressed to "sexily" thus inviting attack.
Anyone remember trying to use the ?he hit me first? excuse as a kid?
Never seemed to work? hmmmmm

You can?t excuse an act of evil with a ?well they deserved it? line.
NOTHING justifies what happened on 9-11.

Nothing justifies much of our foreign policy in the region since 1960.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Here are some of the reasons for 9/11 (Please refer to OBL's Declaration of War on the USA):

* The existence of Israel and Western support for Israel
* Western involvement in the oil business of the ME
* Corrupt and secular leadership throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations.
* Western influence on the leaders previously mentioned throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations
* US troops on Muslim soil...anywhere in the OBL-defined "Lands of Islam"

Really? I bet you couldn't get any of the current candidates besides Paul to give any kind of justification related to any of these items. Nor have you EVER heard anyone in the Administration cite any of these reasons.

It's always been they're Evil, they hate our wealth, they hate our freedom, etc.

Paul's argument is that our foreign policy in the ME(and all of it's caveats, including what we were doing in Iraq in the 90's) is what directly caused 9/11. FNC and their supporters can gasp and start frothing at the mouth, but it's the truth, you know it, I know it, most sane people know it.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
So this is why forums and such have been censoring pro-Ron Paul posts...

Why the hell are these people such pigs? Ron is right.

9/11 was not justified at all, of course. But neither is bombing and killing thousands of middle easterners over the many past years. It's only murder if it's an american getting murdered, amirite? GOP needs to get their heads out of their asses. Ron Paul has some of the best points out of any of the GOP candidates.

Gotta love these fascist wannabes. I dare them to ban Ron Paul from speaking, I'm sure the people would respond very well to fascist censorship of a candidate with realistic views on the world and country. I dare them.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
Originally posted by: dahunan
I think the families of the 50,000+ dead Iraqis will be making sure we leave Iraq and will soon enough come over here to seek refuge

Fixed.

 

morkinva

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
3,656
0
71
Originally posted by: dyn2nvu
Originally posted by: morkinva
Michigan RP petition has been dropped?

http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/rnc.mp3

Is the RNC not condoning these (on trying to ban a candidate) kind of actions?

More likely is their inability to use their phones or email ;) The people have spoken. But they're not done with him by a damn site. More made-up mudslinging coming to a pundit near you.
 

Dashel

Senior member
Nov 5, 2003
226
0
71
Originally posted by: dahunan
Can anyone tell me the last time that Iraq attacked the USA?

Well lets see, they invaded Kuwait and forced the world community (including the USA) to put a stop to it costing us lives and resources. Next they routinely shot at US and UK forces while we were trying to patrol the no-fly zone to prevent any genocide attempts by Saddam. Not to mention the launching of missiles at our ally Israel and Saddams open funding for suicide bombers that target Israeli citizens.

Are you talking other than that?
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
Originally posted by: ayabe
Just in case you haven't seen his actual remarks from the debate -

Text

Rudy's interjection is laced with contrived outrage, classic.

Where are all these Republicans like him? I keep hearing about them but I never see them. Where are they?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Narmer
Originally posted by: ayabe
Just in case you haven't seen his actual remarks from the debate -

Text

Rudy's interjection is laced with contrived outrage, classic.

Where are all these Republicans like him? I keep hearing about them but I never see them. Where are they?

Paul's brand of traditional conservatism died with Barry Goldwater I think as a real force. Sometimes between then and now the Republican party was tired of losing elections and decided to make that their top priority, which leaves us with the current state of the R side of the fence, a complete disgrace to the legacy of the party.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
Originally posted by: Dashel
Originally posted by: dahunan
Can anyone tell me the last time that Iraq attacked the USA?

Well lets see, they invaded Kuwait and forced the world community (including the USA) to put a stop to it costing us lives and resources. Next they routinely shot at US and UK forces while we were trying to patrol the no-fly zone to prevent any genocide attempts by Saddam. Not to mention the launching of missiles at our ally Israel and Saddams open funding for suicide bombers that target Israeli citizens.

Are you talking other than that?

OUR SOIL.. when?

How many Americans did Iraq kill pre-invasion

Didn't we tell the Kurds to try and kill Saddam? Then the genocide happened when wardrunk Schwarzkopf let Saddam fly his helicopters into Kurdish territories and WE FAILED to realize he would seek revenge on them for trying to kill him

Got proof that he paid suicide bombers? He helped the families rebuild after Israel was judge, jury, and executioner and they destroyed the homes where a 15 year old suicide bomber was said to live..
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Not only should he be barred, but he should be jailed as well. Anybody who doesn't think they attacked because they hate freedom is a terrorist.
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: Martin
Not only should he be barred, but he should be jailed as well. Anybody who doesn't think they attacked because they hate freedom is a terrorist.

:laugh:
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: dphantom
No one, to the best of my knowledge, has ever said:

?They attack us because we?ve been over there. We?ve been bombing Iraq for 10 years. ? We?ve been in the Middle East,? Paul said in explaining his opposition to going to war in Iraq. ?Right now, we?re building an embassy in Iraq that is bigger than the Vatican. We?re building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting.

?They are delighted that we?re over there because Usama bin Laden has said, ?I?m glad you?re over on our sand because we can target you so much easier.? They have already now since that time they?ve killed 3,400 of our men and I don?t think it was necessary,? he continued.

?That?s really an extraordinary statement,? Giuliani said, interrupting FOX News panelist Wendell Goler. ?That?s really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of Sept. 11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don?t think I have ever heard that before and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11. I would ask the congressman withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn?t really mean that.?

Source Link

The notion that the US is at fault for 911 is absurb. It's like you saying its a woman's fault she was raped becasue she dressed to "sexily" thus inviting attack.

Paul has good points, but this eliminated him from contention for me. I will look to Thompson or Gingrich if either enter the race.


Actually, he is 100% correct. We have continued to prop up dictators and oil barons for our own profit for decades. Instead of helping these countries by starving out these dictators, we have essentially kept these countires poor and under horrible conditions.

Go read some history please.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
776
126
Originally posted by: Martin
Not only should he be barred, but he should be jailed as well. Anybody who doesn't think they attacked because they hate freedom is a terrorist.

I can't tell if this is parody or not.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Here are some of the reasons for 9/11 (Please refer to OBL's Declaration of War on the USA):

* The existence of Israel and Western support for Israel
* Western involvement in the oil business of the ME
* Corrupt and secular leadership throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations.
* Western influence on the leaders previously mentioned throughout the mostly secular Muslim nations
* US troops on Muslim soil...anywhere in the OBL-defined "Lands of Islam"

"Western involvement in the oil business of the ME "

"Involvement" is an understatement if I've ever heard one.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
After reading his remarks I don?t think you cut him some slack.
Especially with his bombing Iraq comment.

Osama has been pretty clear that one of his main grievances with the US was our presence in Saudi Arabia.
Why were in Saudi Arabia? Because they asked us to come there after Saddam invaded Kuwait. A lot of people seem to forget that. We didn't invade Saudi Arabia; they invited us for their protection.
Sorry, who invited us into Saudi Arabia? The millions of oppressed/repressed Saudis who live in poverty & have little access to education or the handful of insanely wealthy oil sheiks? Too bad we can't fix mental myopia as easily as ocular myopia.
Life in Saudi Arabia sucks, their solution... attack the United States... ummmm huh?

We've been funding the leaders of Saudi Arabia for decades, keeping the wealthy in power .
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Martin
Not only should he be barred, but he should be jailed as well. Anybody who doesn't think they attacked because they hate freedom is a terrorist.

I can't tell if this is parody or not.

No-one is that stupid. Or am I being naive....?