hd3870 vs 9600gt

[AzN]

Originally posted by: SniperDaws

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: SniperDaws



And Azn how on earth can the 9600GT make itself look better than it actually is by turning on AA, please explain for me?

When you turn on AA all your looking at is memory bandwidth limitations. Not the power of the chip.

3870 is different though because it does AA through shader as per dx10.1 specifications.

Absolute nonsense mate.

You mean facts. :brokenheart:

 

[golem]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: SniperDaws

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: SniperDaws



And Azn how on earth can the 9600GT make itself look better than it actually is by turning on AA, please explain for me?

When you turn on AA all your looking at is memory bandwidth limitations. Not the power of the chip.

3870 is different though because it does AA through shader as per dx10.1 specifications.

Absolute nonsense mate.

You mean facts. :brokenheart:

I don't get your point. Isn't doing AA part of the power of the chip? If you want AA, then where the AA is done doesn't matter, as long as it's done.

And why would the 9600GT being doing AA with shaders even if it is part of the DX10.1 specification. 9600GT isn't a DX10.1 card.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: golem


I don't get your point. Isn't doing AA part of the power of the chip? And why would the 9600GT being doing AA with shaders even if it is part of the DX10.1 specification. 9600GT isn't a DX10.1 card.

Pixel fillrate and bandwidth. But mostly bandwidth if you look at 8800gtx vs 8800gts 512mb. The G92 chip is pulling more raw frames but when it is limited to bandwidth that's where 8800gts 512 chokes and 8800gtx in those limited situations. 9600gt looks good compared to a 8800gt because in most situations it is limited by bandwidth especially you are running with AA. It's raw performance only compares to 3850 currently but it might be worse when more complex shaders are used in a game for instance "Fallout" which is coming this Fall. Just explaining to sniperdaws why 3870 AA scores are low not that the card sucks. Currently doing it in conventional method is faster than doing it through shader. You can't really dog on 3870 for that because Nvidia will release dx10.1 card that might do worse.

 

[golem]

Pixel fillrate and bandwidth. But mostly bandwidth if you look at 8800gtx vs 8800gts 512mb. The G92 chip is pulling more raw frames but when it is limited to bandwidth that's where 8800gts 512 chokes and 8800gtx in those limited situations. 9600gt looks good compared to a 8800gt because in most situations it is limited by bandwidth especially you are running with AA. It's raw performance only compares to 3850 currently but it might be worse when more complex shaders are used in a game for instance "Fallout" which is coming this Fall. Just explaining to sniperdaws why 3870 AA scores are low not that the card sucks. Currently doing it in conventional method is faster than doing it through shader. You can't really dog on 3870 for that because Nvidia will release dx10.1 card that might do worse.

So the 9600GT is better for most current games since you can add AA while the 3870 might be better for future games since you might have to turn off AA off anyway and it has more shaders? I know that's really simplified, but is that what you mean?

 

[big4x4]

Thanks for all the replies. Looking at a lot of the reviews the 9600 gt does seem to win at higher resolutions/AA and had really bad performance in a couple of games (forgot which). Did the new cats fix that? Haven't had an ati card since the days of the 9800 pro

 

[idiotekniQues]

Originally posted by: big4x4
Thanks for all the replies. Looking at a lot of the reviews the 9600 gt does seem to win at higher resolutions/AA and had really bad performance in a couple of games (forgot which). Did the new cats fix that? Haven't had an ati card since the days of the 9800 pro

i saw the reviews on toms on the 9800gtx and they do use the 3870 in there with cat 8.3

the 3870 is usually a hair away from the 8800gt 512mb

i did some googling and found another review and it was also much closer than previous reviews. i also found some posts where 3870 users posted about their fps goin noticeably up in many games with 8.3.

ill find out, i ordered me one 🙂

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: golem

Pixel fillrate and bandwidth. But mostly bandwidth if you look at 8800gtx vs 8800gts 512mb. The G92 chip is pulling more raw frames but when it is limited to bandwidth that's where 8800gts 512 chokes and 8800gtx in those limited situations. 9600gt looks good compared to a 8800gt because in most situations it is limited by bandwidth especially you are running with AA. It's raw performance only compares to 3850 currently but it might be worse when more complex shaders are used in a game for instance "Fallout" which is coming this Fall. Just explaining to sniperdaws why 3870 AA scores are low not that the card sucks. Currently doing it in conventional method is faster than doing it through shader. You can't really dog on 3870 for that because Nvidia will release dx10.1 card that might do worse.

So the 9600GT is better for most current games since you can add AA while the 3870 might be better for future games since you might have to turn off AA off anyway and it has more shaders? I know that's really simplified, but is that what you mean?

might? Like Smith says in the matrix.... "It's inevitable" 😛

Up until Geforce 8 was released the shader was tied down to rop nor did high end cards have noticeably faster shader over the midrange products. Back then it was seperated by core clocks, tmu, and memory clocks. Now Nvidia has seperated the SP to determine budget to high end cards by price range. Just look at 8600gt for instance. It is a 8 rop card on a 128bit memory bus and yet it's still good as 7900gt 16 rop 256bit bus card in modern games. It doesn't have the fillrate nor the bandwidth but it has stronger shader which makes a dramatic difference in any of the modern games today.

 

[Sylvanas]

Originally posted by: SniperDaws
Yes Really, and no i didnt bother reading your links as its nothing new Funboy and its been argued extensively.

i can tell you now that my card isnt secretly overclocking because if you bothered to find out this FEATURE only works with Nvidia Chipsets and i have an Intel chipset.


And Azn how on earth can the 9600GT make itself look better than it actually is by turning on AA, please explain for me?

Lol do you know what an idiot you look like 'I'm not going to read those links because its probably wrong and for fanboys!!!!'

Dont be scared

MT score changes: 9600GT runs with different GPUclocks or PCIe Clocks.(Intel P35)

 

[big4x4]

Decided to go against the 3870 because it was made by apollo and had a cheap looking cooler. I think I am better off waiting for a 8800gt or something

 

[Brother Ali]

Originally posted by: Sylvanas

Originally posted by: SniperDaws
Yes Really, and no i didnt bother reading your links as its nothing new Funboy and its been argued extensively.

i can tell you now that my card isnt secretly overclocking because if you bothered to find out this FEATURE only works with Nvidia Chipsets and i have an Intel chipset.


And Azn how on earth can the 9600GT make itself look better than it actually is by turning on AA, please explain for me?

Lol do you know what an idiot you look like 'I'm not going to read those links because its probably wrong and for fanboys!!!!'

Dont be scared

MT score changes: 9600GT runs with different GPUclocks or PCIe Clocks.(Intel P35)

LMAO read his post again; thats not what he said

 

[Lithan]

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: golem

Pixel fillrate and bandwidth. But mostly bandwidth if you look at 8800gtx vs 8800gts 512mb. The G92 chip is pulling more raw frames but when it is limited to bandwidth that's where 8800gts 512 chokes and 8800gtx in those limited situations. 9600gt looks good compared to a 8800gt because in most situations it is limited by bandwidth especially you are running with AA. It's raw performance only compares to 3850 currently but it might be worse when more complex shaders are used in a game for instance "Fallout" which is coming this Fall. Just explaining to sniperdaws why 3870 AA scores are low not that the card sucks. Currently doing it in conventional method is faster than doing it through shader. You can't really dog on 3870 for that because Nvidia will release dx10.1 card that might do worse.

So the 9600GT is better for most current games since you can add AA while the 3870 might be better for future games since you might have to turn off AA off anyway and it has more shaders? I know that's really simplified, but is that what you mean?

might? Like Smith says in the matrix.... "It's inevitable" 😛

Up until Geforce 8 was released the shader was tied down to rop nor did high end cards have noticeably faster shader over the midrange products. Back then it was seperated by core clocks, tmu, and memory clocks. Now Nvidia has seperated the SP to determine budget to high end cards by price range. Just look at 8600gt for instance. It is a 8 rop card on a 128bit memory bus and yet it's still good as 7900gt 16 rop 256bit bus card in modern games. It doesn't have the fillrate nor the bandwidth but it has stronger shader which makes a dramatic difference in any of the modern games today.

You can't draw that conclusion because efficiency differs between generations. a 7800gt with the exact same number of shaders, bitrate etc would still be slower than a 8x series. It's like comparing a pentium 233 to a pentium 2 233. New architecture is not solely based on changes to the listed features.

 

[n7]

Either would do a good job, as has been pointed out in here, it depends on what games you want to play, etc.

I'd also keep eyes open for 8800 GTs on hot sales; they can be a pretty good option.


And guys, keep the arguments civilized. So far, so good.

Let's maintain that.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: n7
Either would do a good job, as has been pointed out in here, it depends on what games you want to play, etc.

I'd also keep eyes open for 8800 GTs on hot sales; they can be a pretty good option.


And guys, keep the arguments civilized. So far, so good.

Let's maintain that.

When did you become a Video mod?? I thought BFG10K was the only new mod. Was it because Keys left?

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Lithan

Originally posted by: Azn

Originally posted by: golem

Pixel fillrate and bandwidth. But mostly bandwidth if you look at 8800gtx vs 8800gts 512mb. The G92 chip is pulling more raw frames but when it is limited to bandwidth that's where 8800gts 512 chokes and 8800gtx in those limited situations. 9600gt looks good compared to a 8800gt because in most situations it is limited by bandwidth especially you are running with AA. It's raw performance only compares to 3850 currently but it might be worse when more complex shaders are used in a game for instance "Fallout" which is coming this Fall. Just explaining to sniperdaws why 3870 AA scores are low not that the card sucks. Currently doing it in conventional method is faster than doing it through shader. You can't really dog on 3870 for that because Nvidia will release dx10.1 card that might do worse.

So the 9600GT is better for most current games since you can add AA while the 3870 might be better for future games since you might have to turn off AA off anyway and it has more shaders? I know that's really simplified, but is that what you mean?

might? Like Smith says in the matrix.... "It's inevitable" 😛

Up until Geforce 8 was released the shader was tied down to rop nor did high end cards have noticeably faster shader over the midrange products. Back then it was seperated by core clocks, tmu, and memory clocks. Now Nvidia has seperated the SP to determine budget to high end cards by price range. Just look at 8600gt for instance. It is a 8 rop card on a 128bit memory bus and yet it's still good as 7900gt 16 rop 256bit bus card in modern games. It doesn't have the fillrate nor the bandwidth but it has stronger shader which makes a dramatic difference in any of the modern games today.

You can't draw that conclusion because efficiency differs between generations. a 7800gt with the exact same number of shaders, bitrate etc would still be slower than a 8x series. It's like comparing a pentium 233 to a pentium 2 233. New architecture is not solely based on changes to the listed features.

8600gt is faster than 7900gt in modern games because of SP not because it's efficient that would compensate 1/2 the rop and 1/2 the memory bandwidth. If you tested a game that was more than 2 years old 7900gt is whole lot faster than 8600gt.

You can't deny 9600gt has only 1/2 the SP of a full G92GTS. As games use more complex shader 9600gt will show it's weakness more than other cards in it's price range. Go test your 9600gt on 3dmark shader portion of the test and you know it doesn't fair well with any of the cards in it's price range. 9600gt has big enough texture fillrate and biggest memory bandwidth though that compensates for it's weakness compared to 3850 or 8800gs in current games. While 8800gs has biggest texture fillrate and more shader to compensate for smaller bandwidth. 3850 has biggest pixel fillrate and shader comparable to Nvidia's 96SP. All cards have strengths and weakness.

 

[Lithan]

Provide evidence of your claims.

 

[big4x4]

8800 gs can be had for 89 AR. That would seem like a better option right? That is $20 less than what I was originally paying

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Lithan
Provide evidence of your claims.

It's not a claim when it's history and facts. 😛

Since you asked however I will provide evidence since you seem to be unaware.

http://www.firingsquad.com/har..._gts_preview/page7.asp
Fear that was released 3 years or so... 8600gt slower than 7900gs.

http://www.firingsquad.com/har...gts_preview/page10.asp
Call of duty 2 that was released 3+ years ago. 8600gt slower than 7900gs.

http://www.firingsquad.com/har...gts_preview/page11.asp
Half Life 2 that was released 3+ years ago. 7950gt has substantial lead here again.

http://www.firingsquad.com/har..._gts_preview/page6.asp
BF2142 that was released last year 8600gt fast as 7950gt.

http://www.firingsquad.com/har..._gts_preview/page9.asp
Oblivion that was released 2 years ago and the first of the shader intensive game. 8600gt beats out 7950gt.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6183967/p-4.html
Call of duty 4 released less than a year ago. 8600gt beating out 7900gtx at maximum quality.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6177688/p-6.html
Bioshock that was released less than a year ago. Again 7900gs getting hammered by 8600gt.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3128&p=3
Unreal 3 that was released less than a year ago. 8600gt beating out 7950gt.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6182806/p-5.html
Crysis that was released less than a year ago. 8600gt beating out 7900gs and in more in line with 7900gtx performance.

Shall I go on?

Now on to 9600gt shader performance.

http://techreport.com/r.x/geforce-9600gt/3dm-pixel.gif
weaker than 3850.

Is that enough evidence?

 

[big4x4]

So would you then recommend the 8800gs over the 9600gt?

 

[Wreckage]

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168

The pattern in our performance testing was unmistakable: the GeForce 9600 GT is just a little bit slower than a GeForce 8800 GT and a little bit faster than the Radeon HD 3850 and 3870

The 9600 GT also impressed us with the lowest power draw under load of any card we tested and very low noise levels

The 9600GT is just the better all around card. No question.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: big4x4
So would you then recommend the 8800gs over the 9600gt?

That would depend entirely on your needs.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168

The pattern in our performance testing was unmistakable: the GeForce 9600 GT is just a little bit slower than a GeForce 8800 GT and a little bit faster than the Radeon HD 3850 and 3870

The 9600 GT also impressed us with the lowest power draw under load of any card we tested and very low noise levels

The 9600GT is just the better all around card. No question.

With new ATI drivers and a dual slot cooler (usually) and, finally, based on my own experience with the latest NVidia vs ATI cards, I would still tend to pick the HD3870. Of course, a good solid NVidia driver might just change my mind! 😉

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168

The pattern in our performance testing was unmistakable: the GeForce 9600 GT is just a little bit slower than a GeForce 8800 GT and a little bit faster than the Radeon HD 3850 and 3870

The 9600 GT also impressed us with the lowest power draw under load of any card we tested and very low noise levels

The 9600GT is just the better all around card. No question.

Current games it is. Notice techreport only test on bandwidth limited situations making the 9600gt look good. Also notice 8800gt using 169.28 while 9600gt using 174.12 that has substantial performance advantage.

http://en.expreview.com/2008/0...e-scaling-test/?page=5

Don't mind wreckage. He is Nvidia 4 life. 😛

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Azn



Current games it is.

:laugh:

 

[Lithan]

You should really take an economics course. The first thing they teach you is that correlation is not causation.

Of course, the fact that the 8800gs only ever beats the 9600gt in games from 2+ years ago and gets absolutely destroyed in modern games despite how they are so dependent on shaders as per you, will sink in eventually, Im sure.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: Lithan
You should really take an economics course. The first thing they teach you is that correlation is not causation.

It isn't economics. It's history of video card. I am not the only who believes this since it only makes sense. :music:

Of course, the fact that the 8800gs only ever beats the 9600gt in games from 2+ years ago and gets absolutely destroyed in modern games despite how they are so dependent on shaders as per you, will sink in eventually, Im sure.

What are you talking about? Please make some sense. I was talking about 8600gt vs 7950gt which you asked for proof and how it relates 9600gt, 3870, and 8800gs.