zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
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considering that those players were sold to deal hunters that most likely have an above-average knowledge of the HD world, then I'd say that it isn't a cut-and-dry Joe Six Pack crowd that bought those players. Now, there are certainly plenty in the AV crowd that made this their first HD player, but those that bought it as a second player could be a strangely significant factor.
All I can say is that I've gotten little use out of my A2 over the last 2 weeks....
- Aug 23, 2003
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Seeing as how Wal-Mart's own sales seem to follow market trends, I don't see why it matters. If the top selling CD or DVD this week at Best Buy is [insert title here], more likely than not, that will also be the top selling CD/DVD at Wal-Mart as well.
I bought an HD-A2 during that sale as a second player. But even if 50% were holiday gifts yet to be opened, they'll have to counteract the 225k+ weekly hardware units of the PS3. Between Black Friday and Christmas, Sony will add roughly a million PS3s to their user base, many being the $399 unit with Spider-Man 3 packed-in and 5 free Blu-Ray movies by mail.
The ball is in Toshiba's court; they need to slash prices and keep the low-end units moving if they want to hold onto the chunk of market they currently have.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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If you understand, why would you even consider going down this lane of discussion?
It's simply bizarre that someone would try to claim the Toshiba is a rebadge of a Venturer-designed product. I really don't know what to say, except that if you continue with this argument not very many people are going to believe anything you say on this topic going forward.
P.S. Here's a hint. The Venturer actually uses the Toshiba firmware numbering system, which of course I already mentioned in the first post I made on this topic above.
BTW, before some people start getting confused... The whole point of the post was to refute the claims by some that Toshiba was losing $$$ on every entry-level HD DVD player sold. If Venturer can make a profit on a $199.99 player, then obviously so can Toshiba, esp. considering it's Toshiba's design in the first place. Furthermore, the post included the cost price of the HD DVD loader, which is all of $57, and yes, that includes the blue laser pickup.
I made the statement several weeks back that the HD DVD-ROM drive found in some players NEW was less than a hundred bucks on eBay a long time ago... including the profit for the eBay seller, yet others said that was bull. Now we have proof that at least now, it's all of $57 in bulk.
The retention rates on the PS3 are fugly. 2 million units if you really believe they will move that many equals about 400K HD-DVD units. Toshiba knocked off a quarter of that in 3 days nearly a month ago.
I'd also be curious to see as the price of the PS3 goes lower and more people buy it in bulk what the retention rates end up looking like. I am guessing the lower on the food chain they go, the less likely people are to use it as a dual purpose machine. They are buying it for their kids to play in their room on the 20 inch set, not as a media center device.
Toshiba's plan is fine, they will move many more stand alone devices than BluRay will over the holidays. Eventually these will show up on disc sales.
Shawn
Lifer
- Apr 20, 2003
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More info on the Venturer player (including lots of pics):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=945572
It is definitely using the same firmware as the A3. It appears it also comes with 2 movies in the box.
Firmware on the Venturer player reports:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=945572
It is definitely using the same firmware as the A3. It appears it also comes with 2 movies in the box.
Firmware on the Venturer player reports:
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
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Originally posted by: Eug
If you understand, why would you even consider going down this lane of discussion?
It's simply bizarre that someone would try to claim the Toshiba is a rebadge of a Venturer-designed product. I really don't know what to say, except that if you continue with this argument not very many people are going to believe anything you say on this topic going forward.
P.S. Here's a hint. The Venturer actually uses the Toshiba firmware numbering system, which of course I already mentioned in the first post I made on this topic above.
BTW, before some people start getting confused... The whole point of the post was to refute the claims by some that Toshiba was losing $$$ on every entry-level HD DVD player sold. If Venturer can make a profit on a $199.99 player, then obviously so can Toshiba, esp. considering it's Toshiba's design in the first place. Furthermore, the post included the cost price of the HD DVD loader, which is all of $57, and yes, that includes the blue laser pickup.
I made the statement several weeks back that the HD DVD-ROM drive found in some players NEW was less than a hundred bucks on eBay a long time ago... including the profit for the eBay seller, yet others said that was bull. Now we have proof that at least now, it's all of $57 in bulk.
i don't find it to be that big of deal as you seem to be making (that I am even discussing this). I continued because you seem to be easily upset by such claims, and that provides fuel. As I've said before, you continue to seem as if your a Toshiba sales rep or employee, and I continue to believe so.
btw, I looked past the model number. I don't follow Toshiba and their model number scheme... does everyone, or just you? So without that piece of info, it could easily look like either or was the culprit of doing the rebadging.
But either way, it's no big deal. And I certainly don't see how that would tarnish my believability as you would imagine, just that you would seemingly want that. I goofed, if I even did. Big deal. Still no true proof either way, a model number is not that much proof. It may very well be a rebadged Toshiba. Either way, I still am not buying into HD DVD any time soon.
- Mar 8, 2003
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Do not accuse one another of being marketeers for any faction, that can only lead to another witch hunt (see Rollo incident aftermath of the video forums). If you feel that a member has broken forum policy, please report it via the correct channels.
Forum Policy
-Schadenfroh
Forum Policy
-Schadenfroh
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
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will heed this as an official warning. no worries.
btw Eug, you probably remember the last time I made that wise-crack, and you said you see why. That is merely all I was referencing.
Fun and games. Don't need any kind of bashing going on. After the AVS Forums incident, I don't think anybody really needs to get worked up over something as childish as to what format an individual prefers.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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FWIW, some guy is reporting that according to his discussions with those involved, Alco (parent of Venturer) is in fact the manufacturer of the A3 for Toshiba, but under the licence agreement Alco is also allowed to sell some under its own brand. They also say that at least in Canada for now, Venturer is exclusive to Wal-Mart. (The same is not true in the US though, as we already know Target is carrying Venturer.)
Take that as you will.
BTW, the Venturer comes with two free movies in the box, but I don't think it qualifies for the 5-free HD DVD deal. That's not bad though, since Toshiba HD-A3 is priced at $299-349 in Canada (sucks). The Venturer for $100-150 less is a good deal in comparison even though it doesn't get the 5 extra free HD DVDs.
P.S. I'm interested in finding out what the Rollo incident was...
Take that as you will.
BTW, the Venturer comes with two free movies in the box, but I don't think it qualifies for the 5-free HD DVD deal. That's not bad though, since Toshiba HD-A3 is priced at $299-349 in Canada (sucks). The Venturer for $100-150 less is a good deal in comparison even though it doesn't get the 5 extra free HD DVDs.
P.S. I'm interested in finding out what the Rollo incident was...
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
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i applaud you now, at least you were able to make a post with information that seemingly disproves your original claims. I remember reading about Alco manufacturing players for Toshiba, but honestly completely blanked it our or disregarded it when I was discussing rebadging. oh well. it actually discredits both of our sides to the discussion, as its not a rebadging of one company to the other, but merely a blank unit with either brand slapped on it. Slightly different, as it was also originally made for Toshiba but still not unique to Toshiba. How about that.
edit: as far as Rollo, he was a frequent Video forum member, with a lot of respect from the video community. He posted a lot of reviews and helped a lot of people in regards to video card capabilities and the like, however, after everything he began referring to was slanted to one company (cannot remember if it was ATi or nVidia), it was discovered he was actually a paid endorser, iirc. It was something one of the companies did, that paid forum members, ones with a lot of respect, to endorse their product. I believe he was here for awhile before that happened, so he was likely neutral or at worst a fanboy before he was contacted by either company. Not sure how long he was under pay before discovered, likely not too long.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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No. Alco is to Toshiba like Foxconn is to Apple.Originally posted by: destrekor
i applaud you now, at least you were able to make a post with information that seemingly disproves your original claims. I remember reading about Alco manufacturing players for Toshiba, but honestly completely blanked it our or disregarded it when I was discussing rebadging. oh well. it actually discredits both of our sides to the discussion, as its not a rebadging of one company to the other, but merely a blank unit with either brand slapped on it. Slightly different, as it was also originally made for Toshiba but still not unique to Toshiba. How about that.
Alco is under contract to Toshiba, to manufacture Toshiba-designed products for Toshiba. However, under their contract Alco is also allowed to rebadge the A3 under their own brand.
This is what I've been saying all along.
Wowsers. Talk about PR seriously backfiring. I wonder how he was discovered.
- Mar 8, 2003
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destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
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Originally posted by: Eug
No. Alco is to Toshiba like Foxconn is to Apple.Originally posted by: destrekor
i applaud you now, at least you were able to make a post with information that seemingly disproves your original claims. I remember reading about Alco manufacturing players for Toshiba, but honestly completely blanked it our or disregarded it when I was discussing rebadging. oh well. it actually discredits both of our sides to the discussion, as its not a rebadging of one company to the other, but merely a blank unit with either brand slapped on it. Slightly different, as it was also originally made for Toshiba but still not unique to Toshiba. How about that.
Alco is under contract to Toshiba, to manufacture Toshiba-designed products for Toshiba. However, under their contract Alco is also allowed to rebadge the A3 under their own brand.
This is what I've been saying all along.
no it's not. at least, it never seemed that way. some info was left out that would have communicated that idea a little easier.
do realize, the difference is quite obvious. If it were simply rebadging a Toshiba to be another company, that's one thing. HOWEVER, I think it's vastly different when the 'rebadged' unit is actually marketed under the company who made it in the first place. Sure, its made for Toshiba, and was sold under the Toshiba brand first, but that doesn't negate the fact that the rebadge is technically the 'correct' badge.
Think of it like this, in a completely non-realistic scenario however:
let's say Chrysler makes a vehicle for Ford, under some weird contract. Now, they take that exact same device, maybe make one or two alterations to the brake pads, and sell it under their own Dodge brand.
technically, it was a Ford first, so the Dodge is a rebadge of the Ford, according to your understanding. It's a little tricky, because I see where you are coming from. It's a tough call. Normally, the company a device is rebadged for is usually owned or has ties to the company the device was originally branded under.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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You're just making things far too complicated. And car analogies always suck.
It makes complete sense to me that the company who manufactures the stuff for another company would want to sell it as well, if it could make some money off it. As long as Toshiba is agreeable, then it makes sense to do so.
Both parties benefit. Alco gets to sell an HD DVD player without haven't to do any real R&D for it, and Toshiba gets more $ and more HD DVD players out there.
Would it be suddenly all OK in your mind if Toshiba just said Alco couldn't sell it? That's basically the only difference here with Sony and its Chinese manufacturers.
It makes complete sense to me that the company who manufactures the stuff for another company would want to sell it as well, if it could make some money off it. As long as Toshiba is agreeable, then it makes sense to do so.
Both parties benefit. Alco gets to sell an HD DVD player without haven't to do any real R&D for it, and Toshiba gets more $ and more HD DVD players out there.
Would it be suddenly all OK in your mind if Toshiba just said Alco couldn't sell it? That's basically the only difference here with Sony and its Chinese manufacturers.
- Aug 23, 2003
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destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
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Originally posted by: Eug
You're just making things far too complicated. And car analogies always suck.
It makes complete sense to me that the company who manufactures the stuff for another company would want to sell it as well, if it could make some money off it. As long as Toshiba is agreeable, then it makes sense to do so.
Both parties benefit. Alco gets to sell an HD DVD player without haven't to do any real R&D for it, and Toshiba gets more $ and more HD DVD players out there.
Would it be suddenly all OK in your mind if Toshiba just said Alco couldn't sell it? That's basically the only difference here with Sony and its Chinese manufacturers.
meh, it would be different.. but are the manufacturer's for most companies also companies that even sell their own product? A lot of companies over there in China and Japan tend to be just contract-only manufacturing, and don't even sell their own product, merely building a product according to the specs the company who contracted them demands.
That's about as much as I know about the contract manufacturing process, I'll admit, I don't really know a lot of the foreign business practices.
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
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Some 3rd party manufacturers don't have their own brand under which to sell a product. Some do, but the original company may say in the contract that the 3rd party manufacturer can't sell it. The original company in that situation wants to keep the sales all to itself.
Toshiba is being very open about it, because they are willing to forego some hardware sales profits to gain profits through royalties, should HD DVD become the dominant HD format.
ie. Sell the razors cheap as it were (either from Toshiba itself, or from their partners), to make money off razorblades. No, Toshiba doesn't actually sell those razorblades, but they still make money of them, since Toshiba owns a lot of the HD DVD patent IP, and thus would get a large chunk of the royalties.
This is similar to what Sony is doing with the PS3. One big difference here as we all know is that nobody else sells the PS3. I think the reason for this is two fold:
1) Sony doesn't want to give away its PS3 technology. Sony's history illustrates this well. (Apple is the same way.)
2) Third parties wouldn't want to sell it anyway, because Sony is likely losing money on every PS3 sold. I doubt this is the case with Toshiba's HD DVD players. While Toshiba is likely not making much money off these players, it would seem they are not losing money on them either. So, while Venturer may make only... err... razorthin.... margins off their player, it's still profit for them, and they're quite used to selling low margin products.
Toshiba is being very open about it, because they are willing to forego some hardware sales profits to gain profits through royalties, should HD DVD become the dominant HD format.
ie. Sell the razors cheap as it were (either from Toshiba itself, or from their partners), to make money off razorblades. No, Toshiba doesn't actually sell those razorblades, but they still make money of them, since Toshiba owns a lot of the HD DVD patent IP, and thus would get a large chunk of the royalties.
This is similar to what Sony is doing with the PS3. One big difference here as we all know is that nobody else sells the PS3. I think the reason for this is two fold:
1) Sony doesn't want to give away its PS3 technology. Sony's history illustrates this well. (Apple is the same way.)
2) Third parties wouldn't want to sell it anyway, because Sony is likely losing money on every PS3 sold. I doubt this is the case with Toshiba's HD DVD players. While Toshiba is likely not making much money off these players, it would seem they are not losing money on them either. So, while Venturer may make only... err... razorthin.... margins off their player, it's still profit for them, and they're quite used to selling low margin products.
destrekor
Lifer
- Nov 18, 2005
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you really can't compare generic electronic devices and consoles. No company is going to give out the technology for production by random companies. This was done once, I don't remember what console brand it was, but I don't think it was too successful. Having a lock on the console is what every console company wants. You don't see Pioneer brand 360's and Daewoo brand Wii's.
a better comparison would have been showing that Sony and other companies like Samsung don't let the contracted manufacturer's sell their product with their (contracted company) name.
Toshiba is selling cheap players for the very reason of profits from royalties later on. I bet Sony would do the same if they weren't tied up with losses from the PS3 brand (and that has nothing to do with low sales. consoles loss money for quite a while, at least the expensive ones. I doubt the Wii is losing Nintendo any money, even when it was brand new). Having two separate products in the market losing money would quickly spell doom for Sony, especially if the gamble was not successful and BD didn't win. And of course, companies like Samsung won't risk it by selling cheap players because if they get any royalties from BD, it's very minimal. I'm not sure how much in royalties members of the DVD Forum and BDA get compared to the actual inventor of the format.
It's lopsided pretty much everywhere except the U.S. Japan is heavily Blu-ray, Australia is heavily Blu-ray, probably Africa and Russia too. And by "heavily" I mean compared to HD DVD, regular DVD is still the overwhelming king of media.
Over in Europe the cheapest HD DVD player is still around $400. Toshiba is pretty much just hoping for a stalemate in the U.S.
Some early numbers:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.c...a0aae38936c0078ef4de4a
Last week's sales 73:27 in favor of Blu-ray
http://www.hollywoodreporter.c...a0aae38936c0078ef4de4a
Last week's sales 73:27 in favor of Blu-ray
That's when we'll see the impact of January's line-up.
For HD DVD we've got Mobsters, Pianist, White Noise, White Noise 2, and Zodiac.
For Blu-ray we've got Resident Evil, Shoot 'Em Up, War, 3:10 to Yuma, Con Air, Dragon Wars, Man on Fire, Sunshine, The Rock, Good Luck Chuck, Mr. Woodstock, The Game Plan, Saw IV, Daddy Day Camp, Damages, and Life of Brian.
Warner's The Invasion is the only major studio dual release.
It's still not a fair comparison between formats, even with the $150m buyout of Paramount. :roll:
zinfamous
No Lifer
- Jul 12, 2006
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PS3s maybe...but so few people buy Blu Ray players it's negligible. gifting a Blu Ray player manufactured around this time would be a horrible decision anyway.
The reason I said to expect the impact in February is b/c HD DVD hasn't done crap for special sales compared to what Blu Ray has done these past couple of months. I can only assume that they have something planned for after X-Mas, when people are going to want something to play on their shiny new systems. they should just bury their heads in the sand if they don't pull something out after Christmas. Both camps dropped the ball on BF.
and you left out Blade Runner as a major holidays neutral release. ...I haven't heard of The Invasion....let alone 60% of those Blu Ray titles.
But, as I've argued before, Blu Ray has by far a better exclusive selection than HD DVD. ...problem could be that the HD DVDs that I'd buy I already own on DVD, and have for some time....
Why do people forget that HD DVD has Microsoft in their corner? the XBox certainly didn't get slaughtered by Sony, as many predicted would happen. Different tech, but the point here is money, and they have more than God...let alone Sony
The reason I said to expect the impact in February is b/c HD DVD hasn't done crap for special sales compared to what Blu Ray has done these past couple of months. I can only assume that they have something planned for after X-Mas, when people are going to want something to play on their shiny new systems. they should just bury their heads in the sand if they don't pull something out after Christmas. Both camps dropped the ball on BF.
and you left out Blade Runner as a major holidays neutral release. ...I haven't heard of The Invasion....let alone 60% of those Blu Ray titles.
But, as I've argued before, Blu Ray has by far a better exclusive selection than HD DVD. ...problem could be that the HD DVDs that I'd buy I already own on DVD, and have for some time....
Why do people forget that HD DVD has Microsoft in their corner? the XBox certainly didn't get slaughtered by Sony, as many predicted would happen. Different tech, but the point here is money, and they have more than God...let alone Sony
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