HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Lots of new firmware updates for the BD players the past couple days, I'm assuming to help play the new crop of movies out today, including the Die Hard set! How're these for simpleton movies? Yippie-kay-aye! Although I've read it's been sold out most places. Yet my Best Buy has literally over 100 copies of Spider-man 3 on shelves...

Die Hard kicks ass. I love 'em, but I'd also call them simpleton movies, because, well, there's nothing complex about them.

1: see bad guys
2: see hungover good guy
3: see hungover good guy knock off bad guys in multiple satisfying ways.

I own and love plenty of "simpleton" movies.

...I'm just pissed that I bought the DVD of Die Hard 3 some two weeks before i got my PS3

 

[Eug]

About their new HD DVD player, Venturer sez... To purchase this unit, visit either Wal-Mart USA, Wal-Mart Canada or Target.

 

[Shawn]

^^^ yeah, I already posted that.

 

[jpeyton]

What happened to all the talk about Wal-Mart being the knight in shining armor for the HD-DVD camp? They've been silent since dumping those A2s a few weeks ago, and their BF ad has nothing.

 

[TheDrake]

I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: TheDrake
I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

:shocked:

could you elaborate? please excuse my internet ignorance, but what is Slysoft?
(yes, I will google it myself, tyvm). would like other opinion as well...

EDIT: that's odd, so they want to cripple this product of theirs?

 

[TheDrake]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheDrake
I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

:shocked:

could you elaborate? please excuse my internet ignorance, but what is Slysoft?
(yes, I will google it myself, tyvm). would like other opinion as well...

EDIT: that's odd, so they want to cripple this product of theirs?

Well they prolly wont stop decoding blu-ray but they seem to be in more support of HD-DVD because of the consumer friendliness and the fact that they have to devote less time into decoding things such as BD+ and whatnot. I am sure they said that because the company has had to invest much more into Blu-ray support than HD-DVD. That would be my guess anyway for the comment they made, pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[etrin]

is the A2 just 1080i ?
which model is 1080P ?
all this talk about 1080/24 is that only blueray or both formats.
And now the HD DVD is going tripple layer so they won't have any problems with size.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: etrin
is the A2 just 1080i ?
which model is 1080P ?
all this talk about 1080/24 is that only blueray or both formats.
And now the HD DVD is going tripple layer so they won't have any problems with size.

go back through this thread (i think), or a few others.

1080i is completely fine for the output on an A2. as long as your TV is p (1080 or 720) it will do the de-interlacing for you. you will get the exact same image as you would from a 1080p player.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: etrin
is the A2 just 1080i ?
which model is 1080P ?
all this talk about 1080/24 is that only blueray or both formats.
And now the HD DVD is going tripple layer so they won't have any problems with size.

go back through this thread (i think), or a few others.

1080i is completely fine for the output on an A2. as long as your TV is p (1080 or 720) it will do the de-interlacing for you. you will get the exact same image as you would from a 1080p player.

Well, I agree most of the time, but...

If your TV has 72 or 120 Hz output, then I would recommend a 24p player.

24p converted to 72 or 120 Hz will elimated judder related to the repeated frames that you will see on some 60 Hz video. Now some TVs can convert 1080i60 to 1080p72 or 1080p120 properly, but some can't.

However, the vast majority of TVs can't output 72 or 120 Hz, and for those TVs having a 1080p24 source is totally useless.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: TheDrake

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheDrake
I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

:shocked:

could you elaborate? please excuse my internet ignorance, but what is Slysoft?
(yes, I will google it myself, tyvm). would like other opinion as well...

EDIT: that's odd, so they want to cripple this product of theirs?

Well they prolly wont stop decoding blu-ray but they seem to be in more support of HD-DVD because of the consumer friendliness and the fact that they have to devote less time into decoding things such as BD+ and whatnot. I am sure they said that because the company has had to invest much more into Blu-ray support than HD-DVD. That would be my guess anyway for the comment they made, pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

Support HD DVD because they have to do less work to crack it. LOL...That is what they ment.

That's why Blu-Ray has more overall support from hollywood studios, it is more secure for them.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: TheDrake

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheDrake
I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

:shocked:

could you elaborate? please excuse my internet ignorance, but what is Slysoft?
(yes, I will google it myself, tyvm). would like other opinion as well...

EDIT: that's odd, so they want to cripple this product of theirs?

Well they prolly wont stop decoding blu-ray but they seem to be in more support of HD-DVD because of the consumer friendliness and the fact that they have to devote less time into decoding things such as BD+ and whatnot. I am sure they said that because the company has had to invest much more into Blu-ray support than HD-DVD. That would be my guess anyway for the comment they made, pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

Support HD DVD because they have to do less work to crack it. LOL...That is what they ment.

That's why Blu-Ray has more overall support from hollywood studios, it is more secure for them.

That's ridiculous. More "secure" is completely an illusion. If it's physically possible to crack it, it will be done. That's why Slysoft is already decoding BD+. Didn't take long, eh? The ONLY thing BRD has going for them is superior bandwidth and I just don't know if that's enough to carry their prices to the market.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: TheDrake

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheDrake
I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

:shocked:

could you elaborate? please excuse my internet ignorance, but what is Slysoft?
(yes, I will google it myself, tyvm). would like other opinion as well...

EDIT: that's odd, so they want to cripple this product of theirs?

Well they prolly wont stop decoding blu-ray but they seem to be in more support of HD-DVD because of the consumer friendliness and the fact that they have to devote less time into decoding things such as BD+ and whatnot. I am sure they said that because the company has had to invest much more into Blu-ray support than HD-DVD. That would be my guess anyway for the comment they made, pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

Support HD DVD because they have to do less work to crack it. LOL...That is what they ment.

That's why Blu-Ray has more overall support from hollywood studios, it is more secure for them.

That's ridiculous. More "secure" is completely an illusion. If it's physically possible to crack it, it will be done. That's why Slysoft is already decoding BD+. Didn't take long, eh? The ONLY thing BRD has going for them is superior bandwidth and I just don't know if that's enough to carry their prices to the market.

No you don't understand. It's fucking easy to crack HD DVD. Slysoft wants people to use HD DVD because with Blu-Ray they need to update every couple weeks for new releases the break their hack. THAT'S WHY!

The point is not that it'll never be hacked or cracked, but it IS more secure and it IS NOT DEBATABLE. Do you know that many newer releases are going to have a watermark stamped on the disk that the player can read and if it's not there your copy doesn't work. Oh and you think you can mod the firmware? The disk checks the firmware too and if it's modded you're locked out.

This means nothing for legit users with HDCP sets which again is protecting the copyrighted works, but Slysoft wants people to allow them to be lazy and support HD DVD exclusively.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: TheDrake

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheDrake
I got an email yesterday from Slysoft about updates for AnyDVD and the first thing that was in there was:

"6.2.0.1 2007 11 20
- Note to people considering to invest in HD media: Please buy HD DVD
instead of Blu-ray. HD DVD is much more consumer friendly (e.g., no region
coding, AACS not mandatory, no BD+). Don't give your money to people,
who throw your fair-use rights out of the window."

Thought that was interesting...

:shocked:

could you elaborate? please excuse my internet ignorance, but what is Slysoft?
(yes, I will google it myself, tyvm). would like other opinion as well...

EDIT: that's odd, so they want to cripple this product of theirs?

Well they prolly wont stop decoding blu-ray but they seem to be in more support of HD-DVD because of the consumer friendliness and the fact that they have to devote less time into decoding things such as BD+ and whatnot. I am sure they said that because the company has had to invest much more into Blu-ray support than HD-DVD. That would be my guess anyway for the comment they made, pure speculation so take it with a grain of salt.

Support HD DVD because they have to do less work to crack it. LOL...That is what they ment.

That's why Blu-Ray has more overall support from hollywood studios, it is more secure for them.

That's ridiculous. More "secure" is completely an illusion. If it's physically possible to crack it, it will be done. That's why Slysoft is already decoding BD+. Didn't take long, eh? The ONLY thing BRD has going for them is superior bandwidth and I just don't know if that's enough to carry their prices to the market.

No you don't understand. It's fucking easy to crack HD DVD. Slysoft wants people to use HD DVD because with Blu-Ray they need to update every couple weeks for new releases the break their hack. THAT'S WHY!

The point is not that it'll never be hacked or cracked, but it IS more secure and it IS NOT DEBATABLE. Do you know that many newer releases are going to have a watermark stamped on the disk that the player can read and if it's not there your copy doesn't work. Oh and you think you can mod the firmware? The disk checks the firmware too and if it's modded you're locked out.

This means nothing for legit users with HDCP sets which again is protecting the copyrighted works, but Slysoft wants people to allow them to be lazy and support HD DVD exclusively.

Yes, I realize it's more secure, but like I've said; most, if not all, security is eventually broken. I'm a consumer, I have very consumerist ideology. This is why I really dislike BR. You buy the disc, but you never really own the disc - there are so many things that Sony can/will do once whatever version of security they're using gets cracked (an inevitability) resulting in useless discs. I can promise that this is going to result in nothing more than many headaches for legit users. Look at Steam as an example - while I have had 0 problems, many, many legit users have had tons of issues using their own legitly purchased software because of various issues. BRDs will be nothing but an extension of this phenomenon.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Yes, I realize it's more secure, but like I've said; most, if not all, security is eventually broken. I'm a consumer, I have very consumerist ideology. This is why I really dislike BR. You buy the disc, but you never really own the disc - there are so many things that Sony can/will do once whatever version of security they're using gets cracked (an inevitability) resulting in useless discs. I can promise that this is going to result in nothing more than many headaches for legit users. Look at Steam as an example - while I have had 0 problems, many, many legit users have had tons of issues using their own legitly purchased software because of various issues. BRDs will be nothing but an extension of this phenomenon.

You do realize there is absolutely no basis to believe any of what you're saying is true.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Yes, I realize it's more secure, but like I've said; most, if not all, security is eventually broken. I'm a consumer, I have very consumerist ideology. This is why I really dislike BR. You buy the disc, but you never really own the disc - there are so many things that Sony can/will do once whatever version of security they're using gets cracked (an inevitability) resulting in useless discs. I can promise that this is going to result in nothing more than many headaches for legit users. Look at Steam as an example - while I have had 0 problems, many, many legit users have had tons of issues using their own legitly purchased software because of various issues. BRDs will be nothing but an extension of this phenomenon.

You do realize there is absolutely no basis to believe any of what you're saying is true.

Which part? The part regarding the ability to completely cripple a product that was purchased legally? True. Similar global schemes of copyright protection (albeit different than something like Steam)? True. High price when compared to competing hardware? True. BD+ being cracked? True. All of this being anti-consumerist? True. Please point out the points that lack any basis. I can understand if you disagree with my ideology, that's fine. I can understand those that don't mind all the copyright protection schemes and the higher prices for what is indeed a slightly higher quality format - it's just not the trade off I like to make.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Yes, I realize it's more secure, but like I've said; most, if not all, security is eventually broken. I'm a consumer, I have very consumerist ideology. This is why I really dislike BR. You buy the disc, but you never really own the disc - there are so many things that Sony can/will do once whatever version of security they're using gets cracked (an inevitability) resulting in useless discs. I can promise that this is going to result in nothing more than many headaches for legit users. Look at Steam as an example - while I have had 0 problems, many, many legit users have had tons of issues using their own legitly purchased software because of various issues. BRDs will be nothing but an extension of this phenomenon.

You do realize there is absolutely no basis to believe any of what you're saying is true.

Which part? The part regarding the ability to completely cripple a product that was purchased legally? True. Similar global schemes of copyright protection (albeit different than something like Steam)? True. High price when compared to competing hardware? True. BD+ being cracked? True. All of this being anti-consumerist? True. Please point out the points that lack any basis. I can understand if you disagree with my ideology, that's fine. I can understand those that don't mind all the copyright protection schemes and the higher prices for what is indeed a slightly higher quality format - it's just not the trade off I like to make.

Funny, you still haven't explained how Sony will cripple the product rendering your movies useless. All you do is say they will, then claim it's true. Not good enough. Like I said, there is no basis to believe a word of it.

*News Flash*: Blu-ray is not Steam. Blu-ray and BD+ *never* requests outside authentication before product use. Steam does.


What you are describing is closer to divx, not Blu-ray. Get a clue. If you don't want to buy BD, then don't, it's only a luxury item in a free country. But at least know what you're talking about before you go on your rants.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: TheVrolok
Yes, I realize it's more secure, but like I've said; most, if not all, security is eventually broken. I'm a consumer, I have very consumerist ideology. This is why I really dislike BR. You buy the disc, but you never really own the disc - there are so many things that Sony can/will do once whatever version of security they're using gets cracked (an inevitability) resulting in useless discs. I can promise that this is going to result in nothing more than many headaches for legit users. Look at Steam as an example - while I have had 0 problems, many, many legit users have had tons of issues using their own legitly purchased software because of various issues. BRDs will be nothing but an extension of this phenomenon.

You do realize there is absolutely no basis to believe any of what you're saying is true.

Which part? The part regarding the ability to completely cripple a product that was purchased legally? True. Similar global schemes of copyright protection (albeit different than something like Steam)? True. High price when compared to competing hardware? True. BD+ being cracked? True. All of this being anti-consumerist? True. Please point out the points that lack any basis. I can understand if you disagree with my ideology, that's fine. I can understand those that don't mind all the copyright protection schemes and the higher prices for what is indeed a slightly higher quality format - it's just not the trade off I like to make.

Funny, you still haven't explained how Sony will cripple the product rendering your movies useless. All you do is say they will, then claim it's true. Not good enough. Like I said, there is no basis to believe a word of it.

*News Flash*: Blu-ray is not Steam. Blu-ray and BD+ *never* requests outside authentication before product use. Steam does.


What you are describing is closer to divx, not Blu-ray. Get a clue. If you don't want to buy BD, then don't, it's only a luxury item in a free country. But at least know what you're talking about before you go on your rants.

Think inside the box if you'd like. I'm only describing what having such a complicated copy protection scheme CAN and MIGHT do. I never said it IS happening. If you really believe that a company that owns a scheme that can be so invasive will never use it as such, then I'm sorry. All I've said is that BRD is far more anti-consumerist than is HD-DVD, that's it, nothing more. And it IS, that's not arguable. Anything that gives the sellers/producers this much control over the product after its purchase is by definition leaning toward the production companies and not to the consumers. This is why *I* don't like it, I never said this makes it an inferior format. FWIW, I have a BR player and some BRD movies (will have more when/if the free ones come in) simply because I can, because it's a luxury item and I want to be covered if necessary. The bulk of my HD collection (used loosely) is HD-DVD, however. I'm simply describing what can become of BR and why this is something I don't like to see. I'm looking ahead. Again, I've never once said this is how things are working now, but it's a definite possibility. Look what has happened with PC gaming as an example.

 

[JC86]

I only have a PS3 and i'm not sure how the BD copyright protection tech is different from HD DVD. That being said, I find it hard to believe that any movie studio will do anything that will render legitimately purchased movies unplayable via firmware/software updates. That will be committing suicide from a public relations perspective. I'm sure all of them will put new technology that is harder to crack in new discs that are released to stem the piracy wave but thats a cat and mouse game that's been going on since the invention of the internet.

IIRC, there was an article saying China has developed their own HD DVD disc that is compatible with HD DVD players and plan to mass market the media and players in China. If that is true, it will no doubt be a huge boost to the HD DVD camp but at the same time, it's a catch-22 because that will mean that there is going to be rampant piracy of the movies released in china, which will undoubtedly hurt the bottom line for the movie studios, which is why I think BD would be the preferred format in the long run. If the studios are willing to maintain the status quo in China right now with DVDs, were you can get any DVD, some of unreleased movies, for only $1, then HD DVD will win.

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: JC86
I only have a PS3 and i'm not sure how the BD copyright protection tech is different from HD DVD. That being said, I find it hard to believe that any movie studio will do anything that will render legitimately purchased movies unplayable via firmware/software updates. That will be committing suicide from a public relations perspective. I'm sure all of them will put new technology that is harder to crack in new discs that are released to stem the piracy wave but thats a cat and mouse game that's been going on since the invention of the internet.

IIRC, there was an article saying China has developed their own HD DVD disc that is compatible with HD DVD players and plan to mass market the media and players in China. If that is true, it will no doubt be a huge boost to the HD DVD camp but at the same time, it's a catch-22 because that will mean that there is going to be rampant piracy of the movies released in china, which will undoubtedly hurt the bottom line for the movie studios, which is why I think BD would be the preferred format in the long run. If the studios are willing to maintain the status quo in China right now with DVDs, were you can get any DVD, some of unreleased movies, for only $1, then HD DVD will win.

I don't think the studios are believing in the security of BD+ without doing their own research. Yes, BD+ is non-persistant and can therefore be modified on a per disc (per release?) basis to keep up with crackers. But the fact that Slysoft was successful in cracking it this early indicates how it is no where near as secure as Sony is claiming. Will it be changed so that the current Slysoft method is no longer usable? Yes, I'm sure it will. However, if BRD does become more popular, think how many more people will be working away to crack whatever the current BD+ scheme is. I feel that Paramount and Dreamworks wouldn't have signed on with HD-DVD if studios had complete faith in BRD's copy protection. I really think piracy is one of those issues that studios will always be aware of and have factored into their costs (doesn't the RIAA claim that one of the reasons CDs are so expensive is because of piracy?); and if so, I feel they'd next look to market penetration. BRD had it for some time with media at least, now with the cheap HD players that were sold en masse, who knows. The format that can make the most money will win, period.

 

[Eug]

So, the Venturer HD DVD player is now available at Wal-Mart, at least in Canada.
Some guy already bought one.

:camera:

If it's $199 in Canada regular price, then I expect it to go for US$149 on sale.

 

[Shawn]

Originally posted by: Eug
So, the Venturer HD DVD player is now available at Wal-Mart, at least in Canada.
Some guy already bought one.

:camera:

If it's $199 in Canada regular price, then I expect it to go for US$149 on sale.

It looks like it's just a rebadged A3 with some cheaper components.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943031

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Shawn

Originally posted by: Eug
So, the Venturer HD DVD player is now available at Wal-Mart, at least in Canada.
Some guy already bought one.

:camera:

If it's $199 in Canada regular price, then I expect it to go for US$149 on sale.

It looks like it's just a rebadged A3 with some cheaper components.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943031

Very interesting a 3rd party is putting out units at that cheap of a price. Puts the stake through the heart of the argument Toshiba is selling HD-DVDs at a loss for 199.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: Shawn

Originally posted by: Eug
So, the Venturer HD DVD player is now available at Wal-Mart, at least in Canada.
Some guy already bought one.

:camera:

If it's $199 in Canada regular price, then I expect it to go for US$149 on sale.

It looks like it's just a rebadged A3 with some cheaper components.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943031

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Alco Electronics makes Toshiba's HD-A3 players too. Alco is the parent company of Venturer, and makes DVD players for lots of different brands.

Originally posted by: Genx87
Very interesting a 3rd party is putting out units at that cheap of a price. Puts the stake through the heart of the argument Toshiba is selling HD-DVDs at a loss for 199.

Yup. The main thing I wonder about though is what the MSRP will really be in the US. It's likely not the $249 that Target has advertised, and Venturer itself suggested it may be US$199 in the US too. If so, then a cost price could be a bit over $149, which means it won't go on sale for $149 that often.

FWIW, Wal-Mart managers claim the HD-A2 has a cost price of US$185.

 

[Mellman]

I admit, i was hoping to wait for the format war to be over, but after there being no end in site any time soon, and being able to get 10 movies AND a HDdvd(A3) player for $160...I had to just bite into HD-DVD. When all this first came out I was a supporter of the BRD...but all this copyright crap gives me nothing, it only increases my costs. I do see it as a superior format -- technologically speaking, but as a consumer, i tend to rely on my value per $ spent...and HD-DVD wins that hands down right now. I know many non-tech people are buying HD-DVD players, just because they're so cheap.