HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray: The Format War (old)

[Genx87]

This people not jumping on the format war is a farce imo. I posted a link in the old thread about 750,000 HD-DVD and 200,000 bluRay stand alone players being sold in the first year.
Then you can tack on the PS3s at a few million more. Even if you consider the 1:5 attachment rate. We are talking ~2 million HD players in the market in the first ~ year.

DVD sold 300,000 players in its first year. People are not on the sideline. They are quickly moving into HD.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: Stingercjc

Furthermore, there is one big gotcha for Blu-ray's lead, which is that the vast majority of it is due to a console. That makes the studios nervous, since the history of DVD tells us that as time goes on, consoles in movie sales becomes less and less important, as compared to standalones. (I suspect the studios are especially nervous about the PS3, since it is dead last in the console war.)

I'm not sure that I agree with the PS3 being a "gotcha" in this case. Unlike the Playstation 2, the PS3 was the most affordable Blu-Ray player on the market for over a year. The PS2 never offered much more than basic DVD playback, it was more of a novelty with that system. However the PS3 is not only one of the most full featured Blu-Ray players on the market (and now profile 1.1 compliant), it also is a fantastic upconverting DVD player as well. It decodes Dolby Digital TrueHD, and I hope eventually DTS-MA. Topping it all off, it now plays back DIVX files, along with a host of other media formats. I can see why a lot of people who aren't traditionally gamers would buy a PS3 over a stand alone Blu-Ray player. It offers more functionality, and Sony has proven they support the PS3 with frequent firmware updates. It's basically the best bang for your buck solution and should not make studios nervous. It is, however, quite a brute and definitely not the best looking system.

If you ask me, studios should be nervous about this format war. I know countless people who aren't jumping on the high def bandwagon because there is no clear winner in sight. I kind of hope 2008 ends with only one high def disc format standing. Much like Highlander, in the end there can be only one.

Well, although the PS3 beats most of the Blu-ray standalones as a player: Faster loading, potentially more future proof, etc., it's still got significant limitations. eg. More complex navigation, no front display, no infrared support. Plus it costs significantly more than Blu-ray standalones (which are already expensive enough as it is).

These limitations are a huge problem, if the Blu-ray side basing most of their hardware adoption strategy on this console.

 

[Stingercjc]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This people not jumping on the format war is a farce imo. I posted a link in the old thread about 750,000 HD-DVD and 200,000 bluRay stand alone players being sold in the first year.
Then you can tack on the PS3s at a few million more. Even if you consider the 1:5 attachment rate. We are talking ~2 million HD players in the market in the first ~ year.

DVD sold 300,000 players in its first year. People are not on the sideline. They are quickly moving into HD.

Well, I know some people on the sideline. I'd also say comparing DVD's initial sales to the sales of HD is not an objective way of looking at things. The advent of DVDs turned a lot of people (myself included) into home theater nuts. Before DVD you basically had the elite laserdisc crowd, and they probably accounted for much of DVD's first year sales. After DVD, you have millions of people who have high def home theater setups and are ready to take it to the next level. HD sales are off to a good start, but I think the dual formats is hurting the pace at which HD is adopted by consumers. That's just my two cents though.

 

[Genx87]

I'd say it is fine to compare as DVD was a step forward in format over VHS. On the low side HD hardware sales sold at 7x DVD and 23x on the high side. To say the aoption of HD is slow or being hampered imo is silly. It is far outpacing the last major format shift in terms of units. Which will get the studio's excited as they can rehash old movies and sell them at a high asp compared to DVD.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This people not jumping on the format war is a farce imo. I posted a link in the old thread about 750,000 HD-DVD and 200,000 bluRay stand alone players being sold in the first year.
Then you can tack on the PS3s at a few million more. Even if you consider the 1:5 attachment rate. We are talking ~2 million HD players in the market in the first ~ year.

DVD sold 300,000 players in its first year. People are not on the sideline. They are quickly moving into HD.

Not to mention that you need a HD set to take advantage of a HD player, while DVD players were great for virtually all TVs that were currently in use.

HD will not take off like standard DVD did. For one people hated VHS (mainly because tapes sucked so bad). While most people are very happy with DVDs even those with HD sets.

 

[Ricochet]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I'd say it is fine to compare as DVD was a step forward in format over VHS. On the low side HD hardware sales sold at 7x DVD and 23x on the high side. To say the aoption of HD is slow or being hampered imo is silly. It is far outpacing the last major format shift in terms of units. Which will get the studio's excited as they can rehash old movies and sell them at a high asp compared to DVD.

That's the part consumers have to be careful about. Even when DVD first came out some of the rehashed old movies did not benefit in PQ from their VHS counterpart. At the very least it was a better format for storage. The same cannot be said about moving to HD from DVD. The early Blu-Ray release saw some rather poor video transfers and those were not even old movies. Consumers will now have to be more conscious and read up reviews more closely before taking the plunge to HD. The studios will double dip as many time as they can as long as they can get away with it.

 

[jpeyton]

Thanks for the Amazon BOGO link; I'm returning my Amazon order for HP 1-4 on HD-DVD and ordering the Blu-Ray versions instead.

HP 5 on Blu-Ray actually has some significant advantages over the HD-DVD version; namely, much more bonus content in 1080p, and a 45 minute "making of" feature that's been omitted from the HD-DVD version entirely (probably a space issue on 30GB discs).

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Thanks for the Amazon BOGO link; I'm returning my Amazon order for HP 1-4 on HD-DVD and ordering the Blu-Ray versions instead.

HP 5 on Blu-Ray actually has some significant advantages over the HD-DVD version; namely, much more bonus content in 1080p, and a 45 minute "making of" feature that's been omitted from the HD-DVD version entirely (probably a space issue on 30GB discs).

OMG.. a format-neutral release that differs in extra features, favoring the BD release? From Warner? :shocked: :laugh:

 

[lopri]

This is the most comprehensive post I could find regarding Blue vs Red data to date.

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/showthread.php?t=28211

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Thanks for the Amazon BOGO link; I'm returning my Amazon order for HP 1-4 on HD-DVD and ordering the Blu-Ray versions instead.

HP 5 on Blu-Ray actually has some significant advantages over the HD-DVD version; namely, much more bonus content in 1080p, and a 45 minute "making of" feature that's been omitted from the HD-DVD version entirely (probably a space issue on 30GB discs).

/surprised

Good to see you have the talking points down as well lmao.

 

[Lurker1]

JC86:

I see the format "war" differently, as I view it from a consumer POV. As a consumer, anything not Sony is a clear winner, especially if that other option is committee driven. Sony has proven time and again it is an anti-consumer company. (root kits and other corruptions of the CD/DVD formats) I'd be willing to go so far as to say that if Sony had their way, you'd have to slide a credit card every time you wanted to enjoy any media.

That said, BD vs HDDVD for movies is a wash. The extra space of BD is irrelevant, as the movies will generally not require more space than that already provided by HDDVD. Therefore, the HDDVD camp should "win" as it's a cheaper solution. Note: I own HD DVD players and something on the order of 20+ movies, including the Sony distributed "Underworld", which should pretty much tell you all you need to know about how the BD vs HDDVD format "war" is going to end.

However, BD will "win" on the PC side, as it's greater storage capacity will make it more desirable for your optical storage solution. I, for one, would love a BD writer as I have hundreds of GB of data I'd like to back up on permanent media. I would love a BD/HDDVD combo writer even more though, and would wait for a combo writer or a HDDVD writer purely because I'd also like to be able to record my DV movies to something playable on my players (DV is not compressed, so the files easily exceed DVD's capacities) When I move to HD DV, those files will only get bigger, even in compressed form.

 

[Eug]

Here is what the studio heads have to say about hi-def this year (Pages HD8 - HD12):

Studio Presidents Look Ahead to 2008

It sounds like the format-neutral studios are getting increasingly frustrated with the war.

"Dueling formats have restrained our ability to launch large-scale, industry wide marketing initiatives directed toward providing high-definition disc and hardware purchasers with the simple, direct and compelling story required to drive consumer interest and packaged-media sales to the next level."
- Steve Einhorn, President, New Line Home Entertainment

"Unfortunately, the dueling formats created an information logjam in what should have been our conversation with consumers."
- Ron Sanders, President, Warner Home Video

Perhaps they will go exclusive sooner rather than later.

 

[jpeyton]

DV (the guy on AVSForum who makes the weekly sales "predictions") has hinted that Warner will go Blu-Ray exclusive around CES.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
DV (the guy on AVSForum who makes the weekly sales "predictions") has hinted that Warner will go Blu-Ray exclusive around CES.

He has?

When I've seen him post on the subject, IIRC he has said he thinks that Warner will go exclusive in 2008... but doesn't actually specify in which direction cuz he doesn't know.

FWIW, Warner will be at the HD DVD Promo Group Press Conference at CES.

"HD DVD has taken standard DVD entertainment to a new level offering pristine picture and sound, unparalleled interactivity, e-commerce, web enabled capabilities and so much more.

Please join us as we present exciting news and a sneak peek at what's to come for 2008:

Sunday, January 6th, 2008 at 8:30pm

xxxxxxxx

Featuring executives from the HD DVD Promotional Group: Intel, Microsoft, Paramount Home Entertainment, Toshiba, Universal Studios Home Entertainment and Warner Home Video.

Join us in the HD DVD lounge for a cocktail reception following the presentation.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Lurker1
JC86:

I see the format "war" differently, as I view it from a consumer POV. As a consumer, anything not Sony is a clear winner, especially if that other option is committee driven. Sony has proven time and again it is an anti-consumer company. (root kits and other corruptions of the CD/DVD formats) I'd be willing to go so far as to say that if Sony had their way, you'd have to slide a credit card every time you wanted to enjoy any media.

That said, BD vs HDDVD for movies is a wash. The extra space of BD is irrelevant, as the movies will generally not require more space than that already provided by HDDVD. Therefore, the HDDVD camp should "win" as it's a cheaper solution. Note: I own HD DVD players and something on the order of 20+ movies, including the Sony distributed "Underworld", which should pretty much tell you all you need to know about how the BD vs HDDVD format "war" is going to end.

However, BD will "win" on the PC side, as it's greater storage capacity will make it more desirable for your optical storage solution. I, for one, would love a BD writer as I have hundreds of GB of data I'd like to back up on permanent media. I would love a BD/HDDVD combo writer even more though, and would wait for a combo writer or a HDDVD writer purely because I'd also like to be able to record my DV movies to something playable on my players (DV is not compressed, so the files easily exceed DVD's capacities) When I move to HD DV, those files will only get bigger, even in compressed form.

- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba
- both formats are backed by large consortiums (BDA vs DVD Forum), both with an unprecedented number of corporations on board.
- extra space is indeed beneficial to the movie industry: extra space can be used for more extras, potentially more HD extras, versus the shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.
- BD will indeed prevail as a PC format, notably because it was created first for the PC and later developed for the movie industry. This is a slight flaw and is noticeable in the lateness of extra features that HD DVD already had, but doubtfully causing lost sales (price is doing that enough on its own, and media prices will prevent the wide-scale adoption of BD for quite awhile).

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

They're using digital media to film extra's now?

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

1.
the IPs are not the product, they are features, typically software-level that makes use of hardware in the player itself. the formats are created solely by Sony or Toshiba, including the way the laser interacts with the medium, how the pits are laid out, what the material is made out of, where the layers are placed.. etc etc etc. I was talking from a physical standpoint. Software, well, there are IPs all over the place.

2. SD video? Like... non-professional camcorders? SD but still a digital medium, or using something like mini-DV or even a more professional version? If so, I guess that makes sense.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

They're using digital media to film extra's now?

I can't believe that they aren't, at least not anymore. HD-capable cameras have been in the marketplace for a long time, and anything shot with pro film can be scanned in at HD resolutions (film has amazing density and can capture quite high 'resolutions'). Unless it's like VHS or mini-dv or something, or a digital image sensor with a limited resolution.. other than that I don't understand.

I guess it could be the desire of studios to pack in 5 hours of extras, or way more even... and understand they couldn't fit all that on the disc, in addition to the movie, in an HD resolution and not have macroblocking or other signs of serious compression.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

1.
the IPs are not the product, they are features, typically software-level that makes use of hardware in the player itself. the formats are created solely by Sony or Toshiba, including the way the laser interacts with the medium, how the pits are laid out, what the material is made out of, where the layers are placed.. etc etc etc. I was talking from a physical standpoint. Software, well, there are IPs all over the place.

My understanding is that Panasonic has significant hardware and software IP in Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Microsoft's contribution to HD DVD is software, but it's a software spec that is integral to the design of HD DVD. HD DVD would not be HD DVD without the HDi interactive layer.

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
They're using digital media to film extra's now?

Of course. Maybe you're thinking of something different, but the best examples of this are those interviews of actors along with clips showing The Making Of etc.

Often times it consists of somebody walking around with a digital video camera. I suspect this is becoming more and more HD now, but in the past a lot of it was shot on SD.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

1.
the IPs are not the product, they are features, typically software-level that makes use of hardware in the player itself. the formats are created solely by Sony or Toshiba, including the way the laser interacts with the medium, how the pits are laid out, what the material is made out of, where the layers are placed.. etc etc etc. I was talking from a physical standpoint. Software, well, there are IPs all over the place.

My understanding is that Panasonic has significant hardware and software IP in Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Microsoft's contribution to HD DVD is software, but it's a software spec that is integral to the design of HD DVD. HD DVD would not be HD DVD without the HDi interactive layer.

Originally posted by: PurdueRy
They're using digital media to film extra's now?

Of course. Maybe you're thinking of something different, but the best examples of this are those interviews of actors along with clips showing The Making Of etc.

Often times it consists of somebody walking around with a digital video camera. I suspect this is becoming more and more HD now, but in the past a lot of it was shot on SD.

I guess we were kind of referring to different things. You meant that the cameras they were using just aren't pro cameras and therefore can't be scanned at high def resolutions. In that case, yes I understand what you are saying.

I didn't realize they just used cheap cameras for extras but I suppose this makes sense for the most part. Extras often are shot "amongst" the recording of the movie and thus must be unobtrusive. Honestly though, the novelty of extras has worn off since DVD came out for me. I rarely watch them anymore save for the occasional deleted scene or alternate ending. I really don't care if they are in HD or not.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: destrekor
- both formats are made by a single company: Sony vs Toshiba

That is not correct. For example, Panasonic has a lot of IP in Blu-ray, and Microsoft has a lot of IP in HD DVD.

shitty 480i extras that almost every disc tends to have. I am paying for HD, give me bloody HD dammit.

I like having HD extras too, but it should be noted that many extras are shot on SD video.

1.
the IPs are not the product, they are features, typically software-level that makes use of hardware in the player itself. the formats are created solely by Sony or Toshiba, including the way the laser interacts with the medium, how the pits are laid out, what the material is made out of, where the layers are placed.. etc etc etc. I was talking from a physical standpoint. Software, well, there are IPs all over the place.

My understanding is that Panasonic has significant hardware and software IP in Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Microsoft's contribution to HD DVD is software, but it's a software spec that is integral to the design of HD DVD. HD DVD would not be HD DVD without the HDi interactive layer.

I may be wrong about the Panasonic IP and BD, so I am not certain. However, I understand the software IPs are what help make the hardware what they are today, but my point had only been directed as to who actually made the hardware, the actual physical medium, not how different software behaves in the attempts to bring the video stored on the medium to life. physical.
i am not at all stating that the hardware is the most important part, just was making a point that has been argued about for no reason at all. that still doesn't change the second half of that very same point: neither format is backed by a single company who developed the physical medium, but rather two very large consortiums back either format and help decide the future direction of the physical medium and of software developments for the format.

 

[Eug]

This is for the week ending Dec. 30.

61:39 BD:HD for the third week in a row.

Top 5:
The Kingdom
The Bourne Ultimatum
POTC 3
Simpsons Movie
Rush Hour 3

Top 10 since inception:
300 Blu Ray
Transformers
POTC 3
Casino Royale
Planet Earth HD DVD
The Bourne Ultimatum
300 HD DVD
Spiderman 3
Planet Earth BD
Ratatouille

Notables for the week:

Volume Down from previous 2 weeks
13 of the Top 20 are BD titles.
PE on BD outsold the HD DVD 56:44, but with very low numbers overall.
There are now 9 titles over the 6 figure mark. 5-BD and 4-HD DVD.

 

[Eug]

Top Selling Hi-def titles (by ratios) of 2007 on a single format. This is YTD through Dec. 30/07

1. 300 (Blu) 100.00
2. Transformers 76.06
3. PotC: At World's End 69.64
4. Casino Royale 54.00
5. Planet Earth (HD) 51.68

xx. The Bourne Ultimatum 51.48
xx. 300 (HD) 49.87
xx. Spiderman 3 46.17
xx. Planet Earth (Blu) 41.92
xx. HP: Order of the Phoenix (Blu) 31.67
xx. HP: Order of the Phoenix (HD) 25.20


Top Selling Blu-ray titles of 2007 (by ratios). This is YTD through Dec. 30/07

1. 300 100.00
2. PotC: At World's End 69.64
3. Casino Royale 54.00
4. Spiderman 3 46.17
5. Planet Earth 41.92


Top Selling HD DVD titles of 2007 (by ratios). This is YTD through Dec. 30/07

1. Transformers 100.00
2. Planet Earth 67.94
3. The Bourne Ultimatum 67.69
4. 300 65.57
5. HP: Order of the Phoenix 33.13


Top Selling Combined Hi-def titles of 2007 (by ratios). This is YTD through Dec. 30/07

1. 300 100.00
2. Planet Earth 62.45
3. Transformers 50.75
4. PotC: At World's End 46.47
5. HP: Order of the Phoenix 37.95


Sales ratios on dual format titles:

300 was 2.01:1 for Blu-ray for 2007
Planet Earth was 1.23:1 for HD DVD for 2007
HP: OotP was 1.26:1 for Blu-ray for 2007


Link

So it looks like the highest revenue comes from Planet Earth! :Q

 

[TheVrolok]

If for no other reason, I'm enjoying this war for all the BOGO deals going on. Buy 3 get 2 free at BB was nice; picked up 5 HD-DVDs. The great thing is that consumers benefit from all these BOGO deals and in the end, no matter which format wins, we still have completely functional HD movies. I've got a bit over 30 HD-DVDs now and even if BRD's pull it out, I'm still in no way remorseful of my HD-DVD collection. They're still movies I got cheap and won't have to rebuy on BRD.