HD Audio - what is the price baseline?

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: sdifox

so explain how the frame is getting to my receiver and everything sounds right. The soundcard is not decoding the dd stream at all, just passthrough.

If you cannot hear the difference than congratulations! In the studio I certainly could however I was not using a commercial source such as a DVD-A. When the limits of the converters were pushed the distortion became very apparent. Remember the chain is as strong as the weakest link! When you're doing production work you don't want it to creep in - like a footprint in fresh cement - it's there forever.

My point is a lot of folks believe IF you use SPDIF out from cheap onboard sound to a receiver or DAC you will get identical sound as if you had a high end recording interface and this is NOT the case.

no, I am not talking about hearing. The DD stream is lifted off the movie DVD, the sound card really doesn't do anything to it. The stream gets passed to the receiver. Are you saying soundcard take the stream, decode then re-encode DD? Please explain how the DD stream is being compromised. I really would like to know.

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: Squidmaster
I think I may not have been clear enough about the sub construction possibility. I have no plans to do elaborate woodworking tasks. I was simply looking into some of the mid-range Dayton subs that require assembly, such as the Dayton T1003K at Amazon.

I never built my own so I can't help you there. Building it yourself will save you about $150. The same model assembled runs $550 on their site.

The comments listed give a few hints for what you might be in for.

If you can wait, I'd give this a try.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: sdifox

no, I am not talking about hearing. The DD stream is lifted off the movie DVD, the sound card really doesn't do anything to it. The stream gets passed to the receiver. Are you saying soundcard take the stream, decode then re-encode DD? Please explain how the DD stream is being compromised. I really would like to know.

This is one application I have not used so I cannot say if the sound card is indeed processing the signal. However if you're using TOSLINK the sound quality is degraded. Probably not enough to notice with movies honestly since the sound quality in movies is not what I'd consider a reference source.

For music playback from a PC there is definitely a difference between onboard audio and a dedicated board and it makes no difference whether SPDIF or the analog outputs are used. SPDIF will be quieter (of course) however the weaknesses in the sound card itself will be passed right to your outboard DAC.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: sdifox

no, I am not talking about hearing. The DD stream is lifted off the movie DVD, the sound card really doesn't do anything to it. The stream gets passed to the receiver. Are you saying soundcard take the stream, decode then re-encode DD? Please explain how the DD stream is being compromised. I really would like to know.

This is one application I have not used so I cannot say if the sound card is indeed processing the signal. However if you're using TOSLINK the sound quality is degraded. Probably not enough to notice with movies honestly since the sound quality in movies is not what I'd consider a reference source.

For music playback from a PC there is definitely a difference between onboard audio and a dedicated board and it makes no difference whether SPDIF or the analog outputs are used. SPDIF will be quieter (of course) however the weaknesses in the sound card itself will be passed right to your outboard DAC.

As far as I can tell (and everything I have read agrees with this view) is that bitstreams just get pass-trhough. There is no decoding, re-eq happening.

PCM is a bit iffier. Problem with soundcards on pc (onboard or not) is resampling. It's not toslink's fault. For bit-perfect output you need an ASIO setup.

 

[Squidmaster]

Hmm, I was hoping my room pics might help with some of the questions I've been asking in terms of what sorts of things to look for. Any help there?

I thought of another relevant question as well... How many years of life does a receiver typically have in terms of staying on top of the tech curve. From what I gather, speakers can last you many, many years. I am used to the opposite in the computer market where parts get you 3 if you're lucky, so I'm not sure where receivers would fit into that scheme if I'm looking at a lengthy upgrade process.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Squidmaster
Hmm, I was hoping my room pics might help with some of the questions I've been asking in terms of what sorts of things to look for. Any help there?

I thought of another relevant question as well... How many years of life does a receiver typically have in terms of staying on top of the tech curve. From what I gather, speakers can last you many, many years. I am used to the opposite in the computer market where parts get you 3 if you're lucky, so I'm not sure where receivers would fit into that scheme if I'm looking at a lengthy upgrade process.

Fortunately for you, there isn't too many up and coming major change in the receiver world.
Receivers do last a long time too, assuming proper use (ventilation is key, vacuum once in a while)


My current preamp/processor is from 1999. It works fine except the memory capacitor is toast, so I lose all settings if it loses power. So I feed it from an UPS

I am looking to upgrade the pre/pro but keeping the rest intact.

Your setup is fucked up I am assuming your TV is staying where it is? You have to count the whole space when you are talking about room size, not just the listening area since it is one open space.

Do you swivel the tv when you are in the kitchen and do you need the sound system going whilst you are in the kitchen?

 

[Squidmaster]

I do swivel the TV in the kitchen area, but I don't sit there and care that much what the sound is like while I'm in there. If the sound is basically configured for the other side of the room, I'll still be able to hear it just fine from the kitchen. If I can configure a receiver to attempt to balance sound over there, I'll do it, but I won't sweat it much if it isn't perfect.

I feel like I'm a kindergartner trying to do calculus when it comes to all of these elements to these decisions. My room setup being what it is, am I going overboard worrying about higher quality levels at all? What's ideal here?

It bears mentioning that in the spring and fall, I generally have the 2 doors open along with most of the windows. Maybe that kills the whole plan, I don't know. I figured to eventually put a center channel between the computer and TV screens, and I could likely add small shelves on the back wall to accommodate back channel speakers, which would almost certainly be the ones I'm currently using as my left and right speakers.

 

[SlickSnake]

You need to look here Harman-Audio Ebay Store before you make any purchasing decisions. They sell refurbs with full 2 or 5 year factory warranties, and many items are sold as refurbs and are actually new overstock. But you won't know what's new until you order it.

I have ordered nearly 10k of stuff from them over the years, and never been unhappy with an order, unless a shipper ruins it, which happened a few times. Right now they are selling speakers for about 20% or less of the retail prices for Infinity and JBL which is an all time low because the economy is in a sad state ATM. I just picked up a refurb 3 way Beta center speaker (4 speakers) there that retails new for $499 for a little over $130 with shipping, and a few have closed for less than $100 with shipping! The 2 way Beta center version (3 speakers) regularly closes for $50 or $60 with shipping! Cheap discounted subs are in abundant supply there, too.

This is a great time to buy a new HT system if you just know where to look for quality components.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Squidmaster
I do swivel the TV in the kitchen area, but I don't sit there and care that much what the sound is like while I'm in there. If the sound is basically configured for the other side of the room, I'll still be able to hear it just fine from the kitchen. If I can configure a receiver to attempt to balance sound over there, I'll do it, but I won't sweat it much if it isn't perfect.

I feel like I'm a kindergartner trying to do calculus when it comes to all of these elements to these decisions. My room setup being what it is, am I going overboard worrying about higher quality levels at all? What's ideal here?

It bears mentioning that in the spring and fall, I generally have the 2 doors open along with most of the windows. Maybe that kills the whole plan, I don't know. I figured to eventually put a center channel between the computer and TV screens, and I could likely add small shelves on the back wall to accommodate back channel speakers, which would almost certainly be the ones I'm currently using as my left and right speakers.

Unless you are willing to rearrange your room, you have basically an open side, which makes balancing sound a bit harder. Good thing is there is quite a few receivers that come with a microphone that it uses to auto-calibrate. They do a decent job of calibrating sound.

So your tv is always going to be crooked? That is going to mess up your soundstage imaging since your head will be turned.

 

[Squidmaster]

The TV has to be crooked. It's really the only place it would fit in here and be visible from each end. It's much like living in a dorm room, only it has a deck and waterfront.

What about speakers installed in the ceiling? It's unclear whether or not that is actually possible with this ceiling, but I'm trying to find out.

 

[SlickSnake]

Generally a speaker installed in a ceiling or wall is not considered to be a good idea, unless it is possibly the surround channels. But even then, it is generally not the best option from a sound perspective. You are going to be hearing the sound coloration of the wall or ceiling effecting the speakers sound when it is enclosed in a wall or ceiling. I would recommend a wall mounted speaker option over a wall installed speaker every time. But a lot of people just don't like to look at the speakers, so if it's more of a design choice, and not a sound one, then that is the only option.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Generally a speaker installed in a ceiling or wall is not considered to be a good idea, unless it is possibly the surround channels. But even then, it is generally not the best option from a sound perspective. You are going to be hearing the sound coloration of the wall or ceiling effecting the speakers sound when it is enclosed in a wall or ceiling. I would recommend a wall mounted speaker option over a wall installed speaker every time. But a lot of people just don't like to look at the speakers, so if it's more of a design choice, and not a sound one, then that is the only option.

Explain how you avoid coloration of your bookshelf speakers by walls or ceilings.

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Generally a speaker installed in a ceiling or wall is not considered to be a good idea, unless it is possibly the surround channels. But even then, it is generally not the best option from a sound perspective. You are going to be hearing the sound coloration of the wall or ceiling effecting the speakers sound when it is enclosed in a wall or ceiling. I would recommend a wall mounted speaker option over a wall installed speaker every time. But a lot of people just don't like to look at the speakers, so if it's more of a design choice, and not a sound one, then that is the only option.

Explain how you avoid coloration of your bookshelf speakers by walls or ceilings.

Simple. Your speakers and the enclosures they are in are designed to be acoustically neutral, if they are any kind of quality speaker at all. The speaker cabinets should not negatively color or alter the sound one way or the other. The wall or ceiling is not built to acoustically neutral standards at all. A wall or ceiling may rattle or exaggerate the bass, midrange or treble frequencies if a speaker is placed inside of it, like an internally mounted array where the wall forms the box of the speaker. You cannot adjust the enclosure to properly account for every possible frequency variance or sound angle of the wall or ceiling without an excessive amount of testing and cost to modify the enclosure. And even then it will be a trade off of some sort on the sound quality.

But the speaker you buy in an enclosure has been designed to be as flat as possible while taking into account the enclosure and speaker variances. Once you set that speaker enclosure near a wall or ceiling you will have some coloration from the room, obviously. But then it also becomes a lot easier to change speaker positions to compensate for poor room acoustics. In a wall or ceiling, in a fixed installation location, you are stuck with what you have, so you better like how it sounds, and if you don't, you better be ready to change speakers out or modify the enclosure a lot to get the sound you want.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Generally a speaker installed in a ceiling or wall is not considered to be a good idea, unless it is possibly the surround channels. But even then, it is generally not the best option from a sound perspective. You are going to be hearing the sound coloration of the wall or ceiling effecting the speakers sound when it is enclosed in a wall or ceiling. I would recommend a wall mounted speaker option over a wall installed speaker every time. But a lot of people just don't like to look at the speakers, so if it's more of a design choice, and not a sound one, then that is the only option.

Explain how you avoid coloration of your bookshelf speakers by walls or ceilings.

Simple. Your speakers and the enclosures they are in are designed to be acoustically neutral, if they are any kind of quality speaker at all. The speaker cabinets should not negatively color or alter the sound one way or the other. The wall or ceiling is not built to acoustically neutral standards at all. A wall or ceiling may rattle or exaggerate the bass, midrange or treble frequencies if a speaker is placed inside of it, like an internally mounted array where the wall forms the box of the speaker. You cannot adjust the enclosure to properly account for every possible frequency variance or sound angle of the wall or ceiling without an excessive amount of testing and cost to modify the enclosure. And even then it will be a trade off of some sort on the sound quality.

But the speaker you buy in an enclosure has been designed to be as flat as possible while taking into account the enclosure and speaker variances. Once you set that speaker enclosure near a wall or ceiling you will have some coloration from the room, obviously. But then it also becomes a lot easier to change speaker positions to compensate for poor room acoustics. In a wall or ceiling, in a fixed installation location, you are stuck with what you have, so you better like how it sounds, and if you don't, you better be ready to change speakers out or modify the enclosure a lot to get the sound you want.

The question was how you avoid coloration by using bookshelf speakers...the answer is you don't. The speaker is STILL influenced, as you acknowledged, the the room/walls/ceiling around it and will be nowhere near flat once placed outside an anechoic environment.

Also you seem to think that a speaker can't be optimized for on wall placement which is entire untrue. In fact, drivers are easier to work with on wall because they will typically behave as if they were in a infinite volume box on a infinite area baffle. The advantage of this are two fold. First, the infinite volume does not restrict the speaker on the low end. So you don't have to make compromises which will hurt its low end performance. Secondly, being on a infinite baffle, all frequencies will be reflected into 2pi space. Because of this, on wall speakers have NO need for baffle step correction. In addition, manufacturers typically measure their drivers on a "virtually" infinite baffle. Therefore you can either measure the drivers again yourself or use their own measurements as the sound will not be negatively affected by the area of the front baffle. So, speakers can most definitely be optimized for in wall placement. In some ways, that's the better option.

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Generally a speaker installed in a ceiling or wall is not considered to be a good idea, unless it is possibly the surround channels. But even then, it is generally not the best option from a sound perspective. You are going to be hearing the sound coloration of the wall or ceiling effecting the speakers sound when it is enclosed in a wall or ceiling. I would recommend a wall mounted speaker option over a wall installed speaker every time. But a lot of people just don't like to look at the speakers, so if it's more of a design choice, and not a sound one, then that is the only option.

Explain how you avoid coloration of your bookshelf speakers by walls or ceilings.

Simple. Your speakers and the enclosures they are in are designed to be acoustically neutral, if they are any kind of quality speaker at all. The speaker cabinets should not negatively color or alter the sound one way or the other. The wall or ceiling is not built to acoustically neutral standards at all. A wall or ceiling may rattle or exaggerate the bass, midrange or treble frequencies if a speaker is placed inside of it, like an internally mounted array where the wall forms the box of the speaker. You cannot adjust the enclosure to properly account for every possible frequency variance or sound angle of the wall or ceiling without an excessive amount of testing and cost to modify the enclosure. And even then it will be a trade off of some sort on the sound quality.

But the speaker you buy in an enclosure has been designed to be as flat as possible while taking into account the enclosure and speaker variances. Once you set that speaker enclosure near a wall or ceiling you will have some coloration from the room, obviously. But then it also becomes a lot easier to change speaker positions to compensate for poor room acoustics. In a wall or ceiling, in a fixed installation location, you are stuck with what you have, so you better like how it sounds, and if you don't, you better be ready to change speakers out or modify the enclosure a lot to get the sound you want.

The question was how you avoid coloration by using bookshelf speakers...the answer is you don't. The speaker is STILL influenced, as you acknowledged, the the room/walls/ceiling around it and will be nowhere near flat once placed outside an anechoic environment.

Also you seem to think that a speaker can't be optimized for on wall placement which is entire untrue. In fact, drivers are easier to work with on wall because they will typically behave as if they were in a infinite volume box on a infinite area baffle. The advantage of this are two fold. First, the infinite volume does not restrict the speaker on the low end. So you don't have to make compromises which will hurt its low end performance. Secondly, being on a infinite baffle, all frequencies will be reflected into 2pi space. Because of this, on wall speakers have NO need for baffle step correction. In addition, manufacturers typically measure their drivers on a "virtually" infinite baffle. Therefore you can either measure the drivers again yourself or use their own measurements as the sound will not be negatively affected by the area of the front baffle. So, speakers can most definitely be optimized for in wall placement. In some ways, that's the better option.

Audio Science White Paper
Floyd Toole said once he would not visit a persons house and listen to a sound system with speakers embedded in the walls or ceilings. Of course, this is a loosley translated version of what he said on a blog but that is the jist of it. I would put his experience and expertise in this sound situation heads and shoulders above your limited observations about it, PurdueRy.

And ON WALL placement is NOT the same thing as IN WALL placement. And good luck trying to correct frequency sound colorations and sound angles IN WALL just as I stated.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: SlickSnake

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
Generally a speaker installed in a ceiling or wall is not considered to be a good idea, unless it is possibly the surround channels. But even then, it is generally not the best option from a sound perspective. You are going to be hearing the sound coloration of the wall or ceiling effecting the speakers sound when it is enclosed in a wall or ceiling. I would recommend a wall mounted speaker option over a wall installed speaker every time. But a lot of people just don't like to look at the speakers, so if it's more of a design choice, and not a sound one, then that is the only option.

Explain how you avoid coloration of your bookshelf speakers by walls or ceilings.

Simple. Your speakers and the enclosures they are in are designed to be acoustically neutral, if they are any kind of quality speaker at all. The speaker cabinets should not negatively color or alter the sound one way or the other. The wall or ceiling is not built to acoustically neutral standards at all. A wall or ceiling may rattle or exaggerate the bass, midrange or treble frequencies if a speaker is placed inside of it, like an internally mounted array where the wall forms the box of the speaker. You cannot adjust the enclosure to properly account for every possible frequency variance or sound angle of the wall or ceiling without an excessive amount of testing and cost to modify the enclosure. And even then it will be a trade off of some sort on the sound quality.

But the speaker you buy in an enclosure has been designed to be as flat as possible while taking into account the enclosure and speaker variances. Once you set that speaker enclosure near a wall or ceiling you will have some coloration from the room, obviously. But then it also becomes a lot easier to change speaker positions to compensate for poor room acoustics. In a wall or ceiling, in a fixed installation location, you are stuck with what you have, so you better like how it sounds, and if you don't, you better be ready to change speakers out or modify the enclosure a lot to get the sound you want.

The question was how you avoid coloration by using bookshelf speakers...the answer is you don't. The speaker is STILL influenced, as you acknowledged, the the room/walls/ceiling around it and will be nowhere near flat once placed outside an anechoic environment.

Also you seem to think that a speaker can't be optimized for on wall placement which is entire untrue. In fact, drivers are easier to work with on wall because they will typically behave as if they were in a infinite volume box on a infinite area baffle. The advantage of this are two fold. First, the infinite volume does not restrict the speaker on the low end. So you don't have to make compromises which will hurt its low end performance. Secondly, being on a infinite baffle, all frequencies will be reflected into 2pi space. Because of this, on wall speakers have NO need for baffle step correction. In addition, manufacturers typically measure their drivers on a "virtually" infinite baffle. Therefore you can either measure the drivers again yourself or use their own measurements as the sound will not be negatively affected by the area of the front baffle. So, speakers can most definitely be optimized for in wall placement. In some ways, that's the better option.

Audio Science White Paper
Floyd Toole said once he would not visit a persons house and listen to a sound system with speakers embedded in the walls or ceilings. Of course, this is a loosley translated version of what he said on a blog but that is the jist of it. I would put his experience and expertise in this sound situation heads and shoulders above your limited observations about it, PurdueRy.

And ON WALL placement is NOT the same thing as IN WALL placement. And good luck trying to correct frequency sound colorations and sound angles IN WALL just as I stated.

Yes, I know on wall placement is different from in wall placement.

Your initial statement is that by using bookshelf speakers you avoid coloration that you get from mounting a speaker in wall. That is simply untrue and the whitepaper you posted acknowledges that fact. The lower frequencies especially are a function of the room they are placed in, no matter if its a bookshelf speaker or a in wall speaker.

Just like designing a bookshelf speaker, one can design a on wall speaker to account for the room acoustics if they wish. Now, you can't just buy a in wall speaker and expect it to perform perfectly. However, one can measure a speaker in wall and design a compensation circuit to equilize the frequency response much like they would for a bookshelf design.

In fact, many people will purposely make their custom speaker designs uneven in frequency response. The purpose behind this is they know exactly what environment it will be placed in. They can design the speaker by making all measurements in this environment and effectly make a speaker have a flat frequency response for the room it was designed for.

And I'm glad that you put all your faith behind one man's beliefs. I choose to base my reponses here and many books I have read, experiences of many other designers and my own personal speaker design experience.

 

[Rubycon]

Who the heck puts any speaker near a hard surface if you desire accuracy?

 

[Squidmaster]

People without a lot of space... like me!

 

[SlickSnake]

Originally posted by: SlickSnake
You need to look here Harman-Audio Ebay Store before you make any purchasing decisions. They sell refurbs with full 2 or 5 year factory warranties, and many items are sold as refurbs and are actually new overstock. But you won't know what's new until you order it.

I have ordered nearly 10k of stuff from them over the years, and never been unhappy with an order, unless a shipper ruins it, which happened a few times. Right now they are selling speakers for about 20% or less of the retail prices for Infinity and JBL which is an all time low because the economy is in a sad state ATM. I just picked up a refurb 3 way Beta center speaker (4 speakers) there that retails new for $700 for a little over $130 with shipping, and a few have closed for less than $100 with shipping! The 2 way Beta center version (3 speakers) regularly closes for $50 or $60 with shipping! Cheap discounted subs are in abundant supply there, too.

This is a great time to buy a new HT system if you just know where to look for quality components.

In case anyone wants to know, the Beta C360 center speaker I bought there and got from UPS today was NEW not a refurb. And UPS beat the crap out of the center of the box, and on the bottom was a huge hole in it. But they dumped it off at the door and ran away before I could even look at the speaker. Fortunately the speaker was completely unharmed. UPS listed this beast at 48 pounds.