HD 5000 series has sold 25 million units, AMD has 90% of DX11 marketshare

[solofly]

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/

90% sounds plausible. It's 84.3% according to Steam Hardware Survey,

Steam doesn't recognize my 460's at all...

 

[RussianSensation]

In other words, your general statement is just too general.

No, his statement is fully correct (even without getting into any details). It would take way too much time to explain all the financial and other reasons on this forum.

Can you explain to me what the problem is with AMD management?

There is Google search for that and Equity Research reports from all the major financial institutions. Sorry, every time any type of financial discussion gets started on this forum, it goes nowhere good.

But the management doesn't impact how good or otherwise their products are, assuming they manage to deliver them.

Of course it does!! Mismanagement/miscommunication due to lack of management between 2 teams was one of the major reasons responsible for the Fermi "fabric" issue. Good management is crucial in any organization because without financial managers and strategy, engineers would just always want to design the most bad-ass GPU on the planet, not necessarily the most profitable one.

 

[epidemis]

Operating margin = operating income/ net sales

Graphics = $1 mil/ $390 mil = 0.25% ( It was 7.85% last quarter)
CPU= $164 mil/$1.23B = 13.33%

Compare this to Intel's margin of >60%(?).

Obviously something funny in their accounting going on. Like a big inventory increase or something else. It can be very tricky to judge something exclusively on the financial information.

 

[Madcatatlas]

No, his statement is fully correct (even without getting into any details). It would take way too much time to explain all the financial and other reasons on this forum.



There is Google search for that and Equity Research reports from all the major financial institutions. Sorry, every time any type of financial discussion gets started on this forum, it goes nowhere good.

So ye, the thing im getting RS, is after you read abit about Nvidia finance, your suddenly all pro Nvidia. I mean come on. Do explain instead of saying "it would take way too much time to explain all the blabla..."


Ive made a point about ATIs R600 being a main contributor to Nvidias rise in dominance, WHAT do you have to say to that? dont give me some random blabla about not wanting to list the facts. Either you agree in R600 being a disaster and allowing Nvidia to dominate or you can for example argue that the G80 would beat even a great architecture by ATI, at the time it was launched.

If ATI had put out the 4870 instead of having to go trough the 2xxx and 3xxx, things would have looked very differently both market share vise and business wise.

 

[RussianSensation]

So ye, the thing im getting RS, is after you read abit about Nvidia finance, your suddenly all pro Nvidia. I mean come on.

I am not pro-NV, I am pro price/performance

WHAT do you have to say to that? dont give me some random blabla about not wanting to list the facts.

I listed the basic facts in this thread already about why NV is a better run company than AMD. Unless you want a DCF, precedent transactions and trading multiple analysis to arrive at the per share value?

Either you agree in R600 being a disaster and allowing Nvidia to dominate or you can for example argue that the G80 would beat even a great architecture by ATI, at the time it was launched.

But you are just looking at a snapshot in history for 1 videocard launch. I think Ben and I are speaking in general terms in the last 5-10 years in regard to NV vs. AMD. Even with 2 incredibly successful HD4xxx and HD5xxx series launches, AMD still made less $$$ than did NV. It's as simple as that.

 

[Janooo]

Obviously something funny in their accounting going on. Like a big inventory increase or something else. It can be very tricky to judge something exclusively on the financial information.

They are manufacturing 6000's and not selling yet.
Also AMD graphics does not include chipsets and IGP. It's part of the computing division.

 

[Idontcare]

They are manufacturing 6000's and not selling yet.

Janooo that actually raises an interesting question.

AMD sells GPU's, not video cards. So if AIB's are sitting on inventory of unsold HD6xxx graphics cards then that means the AIB's will have already bought all the components that go onto those graphics cards...the vram, the capacitors, the voltage regulators, and the GPU.

AMD's inventory of 6000's would be whatever is in the pipeline in the fabs at TSMC right now...not what is sitting in Neweggs warehouse. What is sitting in Neweggs warehouse is XFX, and others, inventory.

Also AMD graphics does not include chipsets and IGP. It's part of the computing division.

Makes the comparison to Nvidia perhaps a little easier then too since NV's chipset and IGP business is basically zero iirc.

 

[Silverforce11]

I think you guys are underestimating how much expenditure is just in people. Skilled engineers aren't cheap.

But skilled engineers in a third world country is a lot cheaper. I don't know the practices of AMD or Intel well enough but i'm aware Intel has a lot of R&D investment in developing countries. Combined with their huge margins on CPU because they are just plain better and have no competition, i can see them having the stated 60% margins.

Because of the good performance, ATI has been able to expand its personnel greatly. It's building a solid foundation for future success not just in GPU tech for PC, but we'll might even see them branch out into other lucrative fields. If you are an investor, these events should serve as a good indicator of company success, not just the operating margins.

 

[WelshBloke]

The proper question is- 'How can ATi have a 90% marketshare and make ~1% of the profits?' The issue isn't the 5xxx series itself, but due to the business management at AMD the end result isn't very good anyway. nVidia can keep making dies far larger then AMD, the amount of money they save being properly run clearly dwarfs the amount saved by a small die strategy. On a somewhat related note- ATi would have provided 100% of all WinMo7 phones SoCs for a reasonable amount of time..... if they hadn't sold that off to Qualcomm for $65Million. Clearly they had a massive design win due to their engineers, sadly due to their management that revenue stream is gone away.

I always get a grin out of your combination of facts and spin.


For the bold, Nvidia could have had a significant proportion of all android sales if Tegra didnt suck so much.

 

[Dribble]

I always get a grin out of your combination of facts and spin.


For the bold, Nvidia could have had a significant proportion of all android sales if Tegra didnt suck so much.

He has got a point -the very popular qualcom soc used in lots of the most popular android phones (HTC loves it) used to belong to AMD. The fact they sold it for peanuts was very short sighted. It would have cost AMD a fraction of what nvidia have spent on tegra to have had the most popular soc on the market.

You've got to be a really desperate fan boy to try and defend that decision.

 

[Nemesis 1]

25 million in 1 year! That's really impressive. And it's not counting their DX10.1 cards, which I'm sure sold a good amount too.

I had expected AMDs Q3 results to be better, mainly because of their GPU department performing very well. But maybe they are selling their GPUs to AIBs for too low a profit margin?

You didn't think magna cores was going to help . I didn't either . But we have to wait on that number a bit.

 

[Nemesis 1]

25 million units shipped with $1 million profit? With 9:1 DX11 marketshare? And they are carrying the company? Look at those numbers again.

Please don't get personal and call me a troll, point out where I am incorrect.

Well really If you look at AMD sals since started . The Numbers are horrid. Dell got busted for doctoring the books . AMDs books need to be looked at real hard. I mean they have lost so much money threw the years the numbers don't add up . To were AMD has any money . Something stinks with AMDs books.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Dude, that $1mil profit is just for this quarter, 25 million was the number of 5xxx based units AMD sold in 12 months.

The fact is that, AMD posted better than expected results and also it increased its employee count by 372 this quarter. Even though AMD is in losses, it is looking stronger.

Actually SB is shipping now . and its going to weigh heavy on both AMDs cpu and gpu sales in the 4th qt . zapata for net and notebooks won't help either. Beings AMD like intel is giving the gpus away. Everything has changed you need to open eyes wide.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Do you have any actual proof of either of these statements?
Oh, and Steam numbers aren't proof, no matter how much you wish they were. I haven't seen any links stating these "facts", so I was hoping you could link me to your sources.

Just digg up old topic on Steam numbers when ATI was gaining ground its here . See what the same exact people said about the steam numbers than . Its so wishy washy

 

[Nemesis 1]

Glad you could take the thread there. Good work.

Anyways...

I think it will be interesting to see what AMD/ATI can do once they can get out from under all of that debt. If they can, that is. Seems like profits (and life in general) would be much better for them if that was the case.

Did anyone note what the cost to AMD was for the ATI purchase price this qt . It wasn't that high.

 

[Nemesis 1]

What I meant?
I am talking about DX11 GPU (GPU's that actully can run DX11 and not turn into a DX11-decellarator) and those numbers (NVIDIA) show that (the majority of )gamers put performance above powerconsumption when buying GFX cards...

Go Figure, right? *chough*

I have been saying for a long time that looking at highend GPU and powerconsumption is a fallacy...seems the market agrees.

Yep your right . But NV knew what to shoot for as ATI DX11 was out. So it wasn't a moving target . Now its ATis turn to take shot at target thats not moving .

 

[Nemesis 1]

If we take all of this as absolute fact, ATi has sold 25 Million DX 11 parts and they have 90% of the DX11 market- that would indicate that nVidia has sold 2.5 Million DX11 parts eighty times more then Charlie said was possible. You know, the guy many of you were touting as being so accurate about Fermi



Those kinds of numbers place the 5xxx series in the realm of failure on any sort of business level. With $390 million revenue generated and only $1Million in profits made with no special charges? For a point of reference, nVidia's GPU division- the one that can't hope to compete, generated ~150 times more profit last quarter(they did have additional charges, but when looking at Fermi v 5xxx series on a business level to date, Fermi utterly dominates).

Man you guys make me LOL . ATI sold 25million cards since 2009 sept. Intel sold 50% of the market with IGP . Intel will increase to 75% of market in 1st. qt,of 2011.

Amd did not sell 25 million cards last qt. So the 1 million was for that qt only. Plus the development cost for 6000 series was in this report of earnings. So AMD/ATI did just fine.

 

[Nemesis 1]

First off, you need to correct misusing commas instead of decimals, further I don't think you understand how to interpret those numbers. Because you see nvidia's DX11 cards showing increases does not mean they are selling more in any way, shape or form.

The size of the installed base is increasing as both companies sell more DX11 cards. Nvidia started at 0% seven months ago and AMD was at 100%, Nvidia had nowhere to go but up, and AMD had to nowhere to go but down. Even if AMD sold 1,000,000 cards a day and NV sold 1, AMD would still show a decrease.

Here is the full breakdown of DX11 cards from September 2010's Steam hardware survey:

Per those numbers


AMD has 84.3% of the DX11 market
Nvidia has 15.7% of the DX11 market


. Not exactly the same as the numbers in the subject of this thread, but pretty darn close, enough that now having two sources saying close to the same thing, it's a safe bet AMD really does have the lion's share of DX11 and has sold a huge number of cards in the 5XXX series compared to what Nvidia has in the 4XX series.

Very well done and your logic is exceptable to most all.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Charlie stated that nV was going to do their initial 5,000 wafer run and then cancel the product because it was a huge money sink. Now if they had perfect 100% yield rates that wouldn't have put them anywhere close to 2.5Million units- Charlie said 30K for his high end estimate. Also, based on the actual financial results it appears that nVidia is making far more money off of Fermi then ATi is off of the 5xxx series. I'm not knocking the 5xxx series or really even trying to prove anything outside of what I keep saying that people dismiss so easily- AMD is a horribly run company. They suck at business. nVidia, OTOH, is an extremely well run company that is very good at business. This has *nothing* to do with the technology we currently have available, but it does have a *major* impact on how each company remains viable and what they need in order to do so. AMD has shown us that it can dominate the high end market for six straight months and have no competition on the lower end of the market for closing in on a year and still not manage to make any large amounts of money. That is a problem. Credit to their engineers for trying to cover up for their inept management as best they can. 3dfx died for precisely the same reason(in no way am I saying AMD is going anywhere, just pointing out that 3dfx had extremely talented engineers that produced some fabulous hardware but in the end their inept management dragged them down too much).

No one cares about what charlie said about sales numbers. What matters to most is charlie had it right about fermi and I had it right befor charlie. Fermi didn't live up to NV hype . But it did meet charlies forcast.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I always get a grin out of your combination of facts and spin.


For the bold, Nvidia could have had a significant proportion of all android sales if Tegra didnt suck so much.

Ya your right . But I said it first along time ago . I have the topic book marked but IDC asked me to play nice with the kid.

 

[AnandThenMan]

WTF, use multi-quote.

 

[J-Money]

I think the biggest issue for a lot of people here is thinking that because one product might be "better" than another doesn't mean the business is doing better. Regardless of sales. A lot more to it.

Too many people think because their HDxxxx is awesome that means that AMD is doing better as a business. Too few know business. All that matters in the end is business.

And I'm about as unbiased as you can get. I even returned my GTX 470 for an HD5870.

 

[blastingcap]

Steam doesn't recognize my 460's at all...

at a higher rate than Steam not recognizing someone else's 5770s? If we assume that glitches occur, I think the assumption should be that glitches affect all cards equally, unless proven otherwise.

 

[Idontcare]

First off, you need to correct misusing commas instead of decimals,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark

Countries using Arabic numerals with decimal comma

Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Canada (French-speaking), Costa Rica, Croatia (comma used officially, but both forms are in use elsewhere), Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, Faroes, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Honduras, Hungary, Indonesia, Iceland, Italy, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg (uses both marks officially), Macau (in Portuguese text), Macedonia, Moldova, Netherlands, Norway, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, South Africa (officially[citation needed], but dot point is commonly used in business), Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, Uruguay, Venezuela, Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark#Countries_using_Arabic_numerals_with_decimal_comma

Decimal marks:
Dot — Blue
Comma — Green
Non-West-Arabic Numerals — Red
Unknown — Grey

 

[Janooo]

Janooo that actually raises an interesting question.

AMD sells GPU's, not video cards. So if AIB's are sitting on inventory of unsold HD6xxx graphics cards then that means the AIB's will have already bought all the components that go onto those graphics cards...the vram, the capacitors, the voltage regulators, and the GPU.

AMD's inventory of 6000's would be whatever is in the pipeline in the fabs at TSMC right now...not what is sitting in Neweggs warehouse. What is sitting in Neweggs warehouse is XFX, and others, inventory.

It all comes down to when AMD got a bill from TSMC and when they send invoices to AIB's. It just happens that AMD is preparing to launch the new GPU's and it's an end of a quarter.

Makes the comparison to Nvidia perhaps a little easier then too since NV's chipset and IGP business is basically zero iirc.

NV has still ION and how about SLI chipset/fee?