Have you taken an IQ test? Would you?

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
WTF do you think "controlled selected breeding" is? Its GENOCIDE and STERILIZATION.

So you're saying that when I eventually make my choice on whom I will marry (which _will_ be based to at least some degree on her intelligence) I'm going to go out and sterilise or kill every woman who is not the woman I've chosen?

The simple fact is that every single marriage is an example of eugenics on a small scale. Two people are choosing to interbreed with each other because they each believe that the other is superior to all other options for breeding. Simply making the evaluative choice of who is the best person to marry is eugenics in action. The horrors you so glibly attach to eugenics are by no means necessary accompaniments to it, as my above example shows.

The world is not black and white, in fact, it is almost never even clearly defined shared of grey. Most of the time it's a foggy haze.

ZV

The people that used IQ tests in North Carolina were not looking for wives, they were looking for people to sterilize. I agree with your take on marriage and eugenics, but thats not really the social/political aspect of it I was referring to.

AGAIN, all I have said in every thread is that the IQ test has been used racists and eugenicists. If you can show me how this is false, I will shut up.

 

[91TTZ]

I believe that the root cause in many of these ethics arguments stems from the fact that most people like disorder, because they don't want to feel constained by real, predictable limitations.

This thought comes from both camps- both the religious right and liberals. The religious right tends to shun man figuring out and manipulating the world around him, one which used to fall solely under the understanding and control of God. Liberals are also against it because generally they don't like stereotypes or labels being attached to anything human due to a frantic craving for social equality.

Both of these schools of thought aren't really schools of "thought" at all, rather they are somewhat juvenile emotional responses to topics they don't like, hence the typical knee-jerk reaction of people comparing those who disagree with them to "evil", "the devil", "hitler", "racism" , or any other definitively bad emotionally charged catchphrase they can muster.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

What is my viewpoint? I stated a FACT! This is not an opinion, I never said that IQ tests were evil and racist and should be done away with.

From your earlier post:

"edit - not to mention, the entire concept is pretty much flawed. did you know the IQ test was initially created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart (scientific racism, or race-science)."

Sounds like you said they are evil and racist to me.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

If you can show me where I made any mention about not using IQ tests I will go away.

You already stated in your first post that IQ tests were flawed and "created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart (scientific racism, or race-science)".

Now if you have a reason why you'd still want to use IQ tests believing that statement, I'd sure like to hear it.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

What is my viewpoint? I stated a FACT! This is not an opinion, I never said that IQ tests were evil and racist and should be done away with.

From your earlier post:

"edit - not to mention, the entire concept is pretty much flawed. did you know the IQ test was initially created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart (scientific racism, or race-science)."

Sounds like you said they are evil and racist to me.

I can't help you then if you want to turn a bit of FYI into a full-on attack. I just thought people might like to know that something as seemingly harmless as the IQ test has been used for some pretty shtty things.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
WTF do you think "controlled selected breeding" is? Its GENOCIDE and STERILIZATION.

So you're saying that when I eventually make my choice on whom I will marry (which _will_ be based to at least some degree on her intelligence) I'm going to go out and sterilise or kill every woman who is not the woman I've chosen?

The simple fact is that every single marriage is an example of eugenics on a small scale. Two people are choosing to interbreed with each other because they each believe that the other is superior to all other options for breeding. Simply making the evaluative choice of who is the best person to marry is eugenics in action. The horrors you so glibly attach to eugenics are by no means necessary accompaniments to it, as my above example shows.

The world is not black and white, in fact, it is almost never even clearly defined shared of grey. Most of the time it's a foggy haze.

ZV

The people that used IQ tests in North Carolina were not looking for wives, they were looking for people to sterilize. I agree with your take on marriage and eugenics, but thats not really the social/political aspect of it I was referring to.

AGAIN, all I have said in every thread is that the IQ test has been used racists and eugenicists. If you can show me how this is false, I will shut up.

I never asked you to "shut up". Kindly respond to what I actually say and not to words you're putting into my mouth.

You claimed that eugenics necessarily included genocide and sterilization, you claimed that genocide and sterilization were definitional for eugenics. Clearly, as you have yourself just admitted, they are not.

I made no claim regarding the use of IQ tests for incorrect purposes, I simply (and effectively) refuted your claim that genocide and sterilization were necessary componants of eugenics.

There is no-one here who would argue that IQ tests have never been abused. However, the abuse of IQ tests by unsavory parties has absolutely no bearing on the validity of such tests and your blanket statements implying that anyone who believes in the validity of IQ tests must be somehow racist are both juvenile and patently insulting.

Yes IQ tests have been abused. So has everything else. Validity under proper use is not in the least bit diminished by abuses in other areas.

ZV

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

I can't help you then if you want to turn a bit of FYI into a full-on attack. I just thought people might like to know that something as seemingly harmless as the IQ test has been used for some pretty shtty things.

Your "FYI" was not a FYI at all. It was a plainly *incorrect* accusation. There was no information contained in it.

Your "FYI" stated this: did you know the IQ test was initially created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart (scientific racism, or race-science)

That is false. The IQ test was NOT initially created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart.

After you made that very bold but incorrect claim, you later said it "has been used for some pretty shtty things".

Now if you just want to say that watered-down statement, I won't disagree that it "has been used for some pretty shtty things". My original post refuted your original claim. End of story.

 

[artikk]

I've taken an IQ test and decided that I didn't need some test to prove or tell me if I was intelligent or not. Deciding that, I think most of us take these things to boost our self image and confidence. Scoring below or above average doesn't say anything to me. It only proves that some people take tests better than others. Only I can willingly decide if I'm intelligent or not.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
WTF do you think "controlled selected breeding" is? Its GENOCIDE and STERILIZATION.

So you're saying that when I eventually make my choice on whom I will marry (which _will_ be based to at least some degree on her intelligence) I'm going to go out and sterilise or kill every woman who is not the woman I've chosen?

The simple fact is that every single marriage is an example of eugenics on a small scale. Two people are choosing to interbreed with each other because they each believe that the other is superior to all other options for breeding. Simply making the evaluative choice of who is the best person to marry is eugenics in action. The horrors you so glibly attach to eugenics are by no means necessary accompaniments to it, as my above example shows.

The world is not black and white, in fact, it is almost never even clearly defined shared of grey. Most of the time it's a foggy haze.

ZV

The people that used IQ tests in North Carolina were not looking for wives, they were looking for people to sterilize. I agree with your take on marriage and eugenics, but thats not really the social/political aspect of it I was referring to.

AGAIN, all I have said in every thread is that the IQ test has been used racists and eugenicists. If you can show me how this is false, I will shut up.

I never asked you to "shut up". Kindly respond to what I actually say and not to words you're putting into my mouth.

You claimed that eugenics necessarily included genocide and sterilization, you claimed that genocide and sterilization were definitional for eugenics. Clearly, as you have yourself just admitted, they are not.

I made no claim regarding the use of IQ tests for incorrect purposes, I simply (and effectively) refuted your claim that genocide and sterilization were necessary componants of eugenics.

There is no-one here who would argue that IQ tests have never been abused. However, the abuse of IQ tests by unsavory parties has absolutely no bearing on the validity of such tests and your blanket statements implying that anyone who believes in the validity of IQ tests must be somehow racist are both juvenile and patently insulting.

Yes IQ tests have been abused. So has everything else. Validity under proper use is not in the least bit diminished by abuses in other areas.

ZV

ZV,

I never intended to insult or call anyone a racist and I think you are misinterpreting me. I do believe that the IQ has been shaped by racists and eugenicists. I do not necessarily believe the final product is "evil" or racist and I apoligize if it came out like that. It is undeniable that back in the early 20th century the social landscape of america is much different than it is today. Racism was part of the fabric and it was in those peoples best interest to start justifying their behavior. The idea of intelligence testing provided a convenient way of giving substance to their beliefs, so they were obvious proponents of the idea. This doesn't make the test evil, and I am not claiming it is.

As for eugenics... you are more referring to genetics - that you and your smart wife will have a smart kid. Eugenics in my interpretation is a much more social phenomenon - that certain *groups* are superior or inferior. ALA blacks in the US, Jews during the holocaust, women in much of the world, etc.

However, eugenicists used a flawed and crude interpretation of Gregor Mendel's laws on heredity to argue that criminality, intelligence, and pauperism were passed down in families as simple dominant or recessive hereditary traits (Cravens 1988). Many eugenicists believed that some individuals and entire groups of people (such as Southern Europeans, Jews, Africans, and Latinos) were predisposed to carry a disproportionate number of defective traits in the general population. These ideas began to permeate different disciplines in higher education in the 191 Os, especially biology and psychology (Selden 1999). One of the first educational psychologists to become an ardent proponent of eugenics was Henry Goddard (1866-1957). His innovation was to infuse eugenics into educational theory and practice.

I am going to rephrase my initial post to better reflect my ideas.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

I can't help you then if you want to turn a bit of FYI into a full-on attack. I just thought people might like to know that something as seemingly harmless as the IQ test has been used for some pretty shtty things.

Your "FYI" was not a FYI at all. It was a plainly *incorrect* accusation. There was no information contained in it.

Your "FYI" stated this: did you know the IQ test was initially created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart (scientific racism, or race-science)

That is false. The IQ test was NOT initially created by a person with the agenda of obtaining "scientific" proof that blacks were not as smart.

After you made that very bold but incorrect claim, you later said it "has been used for some pretty shtty things".

Now if you just want to say that watered-down statement, I won't disagree that it "has been used for some pretty shtty things". My original post refuted your original claim. End of story.

My second post corrected and rephrased my original post, yet you continued to bash me without explanation.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

My second post corrected and rephrased my original post, yet you continued to bash me without explanation.

Ok, sorry for the subsequent bashing.

I'm saying that IQ tests may have been used as a tool by people with poor intentions, but it doesn't make the IQ tests themselves bad. Also, even if IQ tests do show differences between races, it doesn't mean that anyone is inferior or less of a human, just IQ tests might not be their strongpoint. They may excel at something else. If you notice, most people are really good at something, that thing just varies.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

My second post corrected and rephrased my original post, yet you continued to bash me without explanation.

Ok, sorry for the subsequent bashing.

I'm saying that IQ tests may have been used as a tool by people with poor intentions, but it doesn't make the IQ tests themselves bad. Also, even if IQ tests do show differences between races, it doesn't mean that anyone is inferior or less of a human, just IQ tests might not be their strongpoint. They may excel at something else. If you notice, most people are really good at something, that thing just varies.

I am not trying to say the IQ tests are bad either. Just like you said, that they have been used by people with bad intentions.

I compeletely agree with you on your second point, which I bolded. Many of the bad things that happened related to the test are because peoople were desperately looking for that connection. If my IQ score is higher than someone elses, I have a higher IQ, and I am better at IQ tests than they are - but I that does not necessarily mean I am superior in any other sense. Yet, people have tried to use the IQ test for exactly this purpose.