Have you guys noticed?

[TehMac]

I have a muscle car book that I enjoy reading, and they were some pretty awesome times, but what boggled me was that you had these massive V8 engines (Ford 428 cid ~ 7 liters!) producing 335 - 400 bhp depending on intake manifold and carburetors yet the 0-60 times were around anywhere from 5.6-6.5 seconds.

I was curious how this could be the case, but then I did a little research and I found that the tire industry has been evolving for a very long time. Apparently half the battle is getting good tires and putting that power on the ground (I know this is obvious, but it's easily overlooked) and back in the 60's I guess the tires were not as effective as they are now.

Also, cars weren't that heavy back then, although some of the Mopars from Chrysler weighed around 3,700 pounds, but that was heaviest (The Dodge Challenger now weighs around 4200lbs). The Mustang weighed around 3200-3500 lbs.

Any thoughts, did you guys notice that? I'm interested to hear Amused's opinion because he's driven a lot of these cars and owns a few, if I'm not mistaken.

edit: Also, sorry guys, it is Ronstang with the muscle cars, while I'm sure Amused is doing quite nicely, it's Ronstang with the shiznat.

 

[Bignate603]

I was thinking 'tires' right after your first paragraph. Those beasts from the 60's just couldn't get all that power to the ground with the tires that they had from the factory.

 

[TehMac]

Yeah, what I don't get was that didn't people realize this? I mean you'd think Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler would all stop and say "gee we have zentons of power, but we're only (I say only because 0-60 in 5.3 secs is still pretty fast) getting 0-60 in 6.5 seconds."

The GT500 for example was more of a GT car apparently, going 0-60 in around 5.9 seconds.

 

[zerocool84]

Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: TehMac

snip
........
Also, cars weren't that heavy back then, although some of the Mopars from Chrysler weighed around 3,700 pounds, but that was heaviest (The Dodge Challenger now weighs around 4200lbs). The Mustang weighed around 3200-3500 lbs.

.....................

My 1966 Dodge Hemi Charger weighed 4,1XX lbs. according to the public scales where I lived back then. This was completely stock. Some of the weights you see posted are what the manufacturer listed for shipping and registration and have no bearing on reality. IIRC the engine was a boat anchor @ around 750 lbs. right over the front wheels. There were no street tires that could put 480 lb-ft to the pavement from a standing start then.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: TehMac
Yeah, what I don't get was that didn't people realize this? I mean you'd think Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler would all stop and say "gee we have zentons of power, but we're only (I say only because 0-60 in 5.3 secs is still pretty fast) getting 0-60 in 6.5 seconds."

The GT500 for example was more of a GT car apparently, going 0-60 in around 5.9 seconds.

What is there to realize? If every one of their competitors was putting out the same kind of numbers that seemed pretty fast.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

Which factory cars? Are you thinking of dealer modified cars sold as new?

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

True. But those were special light weight cars with slicks.

 

[mwmorph]

Also those measurements were net hp, measured with no parasitic drag from accessories, custom oil pans, special headers, etc. Granted many were also underrated for insurance purposes so it was a crapshoot.

Now most cars are SAE certified power which requires all stock accessories, stock manifolds, stock oil pans, etc.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

Which factory cars? Are you thinking of dealer modified cars sold as new?

If you knew a dealer with connections you could buy a 'glass bodied "factory" built mustang that was ready for the 1/4 mile right off the delivery truck.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Also those measurements were net hp, measured with no parasitic drag from accessories, custom oil pans, special headers, etc. Granted many were also underrated for insurance purposes so it was a crapshoot.

Now most cars are SAE certified power which requires all stock accessories, stock manifolds, stock oil pans, etc.

HP was gross, not net back then.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

Which factory cars? Are you thinking of dealer modified cars sold as new?

If you knew a dealer with connections you could buy a 'glass bodied "factory" built mustang that was ready for the 1/4 mile right off the delivery truck.

I was wondering if you were referring to the z-27 (not z-28 mistyped). There were very few built (~100?) since it was "so fast" that the insurance companies were freaking.

I don't think 12 second 1/4 mile times were unusual, though. They ran better if you filled up with 100 octane at the local airport.

 

[foghorn67]

Weight reduction is so easy for those cars these days. Now the average joe can throw out the iron intake and heads for aluminum ones. Also throwing away the steel rims for alloy rims and getting rid of the drum brakes. I'm sure my old Mustang is a couple-few hundred pounds lighter than factory.
And yes, tires are a HUGE difference.

 

[Billb2]

There were suspension problems too back then.
Six cylinder cars used the same suspension as their "muscle car" versions.
After market traction bars and stiffer springs helped and some people replaced the panhard bar with a wats link.

Anyone remember their first experience with slicks in the rain?

 

[jaha2000]

My first car i ever had was a 69 grand prix, that thing was a giant boat of a car, but had that wonderful 350hp 400ci GTO plant under the hood.
It was my moms sister's car that died when i was very young, 1982 i think and sat till i turned 16 around 98 or so.
That car had bias ply's on it when i got it. Even with that big wheelbase and boat of a car, that thing would flat melt those bias ply tires. Once we put some some modern tires on there, the was no comparison to traction as well as handling. Bias ply tires would wander all over the road, but the radials would not. Of course, replacing the drag link, pitman arm, idler arm and the inner and out tire rods helped that as well...

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Also those measurements were net hp, measured with no parasitic drag from accessories, custom oil pans, special headers, etc. Granted many were also underrated for insurance purposes so it was a crapshoot.

Now most cars are SAE certified power which requires all stock accessories, stock manifolds, stock oil pans, etc.

HP was gross, not net back then.

What do you mean gross?

Like, measured from the rear wheels as opposed fly wheel?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: jaha2000
My first car i ever had was a 69 grand prix, that thing was a giant boat of a car, but had that wonderful 350hp 400ci GTO plant under the hood.
It was my moms sister's car that died when i was very young, 1982 i think and sat till i turned 16 around 98 or so.
That car had bias ply's on it when i got it. Even with that big wheelbase and boat of a car, that thing would flat melt those bias ply tires. Once we put some some modern tires on there, the was no comparison to traction as well as handling. Bias ply tires would wander all over the road, but the radials would not. Of course, replacing the drag link, pitman arm, idler arm and the inner and out tire rods helped that as well...

I remember always liking the grand prix - classy. It was not the biggest car of that era at all. The olds/toronado was interesting also - front wheel drive, I believe.

 

[jaha2000]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: jaha2000
My first car i ever had was a 69 grand prix, that thing was a giant boat of a car, but had that wonderful 350hp 400ci GTO plant under the hood.
It was my moms sister's car that died when i was very young, 1982 i think and sat till i turned 16 around 98 or so.
That car had bias ply's on it when i got it. Even with that big wheelbase and boat of a car, that thing would flat melt those bias ply tires. Once we put some some modern tires on there, the was no comparison to traction as well as handling. Bias ply tires would wander all over the road, but the radials would not. Of course, replacing the drag link, pitman arm, idler arm and the inner and out tire rods helped that as well...

I remember always liking the grand prix - classy. It was not the biggest car of that era at all. The olds/toronado was interesting also - front wheel drive, I believe.

Indeed...
The grand prix was a midsize for sure. However. I believe it had one of the longest hoods at over 6 feet.
I just remember changing the water pump out on the thing. We took the fan shroud and the fan off and i stood in between the radiator and the motor to take it out.. Try that on a modern car!

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: TehMac

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Also those measurements were net hp, measured with no parasitic drag from accessories, custom oil pans, special headers, etc. Granted many were also underrated for insurance purposes so it was a crapshoot.

Now most cars are SAE certified power which requires all stock accessories, stock manifolds, stock oil pans, etc.

HP was gross, not net back then.

What do you mean gross?

Like, measured from the rear wheels as opposed fly wheel?

Gross and net (gross came first, pre 1972, net was used 1972-2004) were measured at the crank.
The Gross hp were flexible in how you outfitted the car, accessories, air cleaners, etc were optional.
SAE net came later and was more restrictive with how the engine was configured to be measured. Air cleaners were required and production belt driven accessories were required, emissions, exhausts, etc.
SAE certified was introduced in 2005 and were even more restrictive. It requires such things as a stock oi pan and an independent observer to verify the results.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

Which factory cars? Are you thinking of dealer modified cars sold as new?

i want to say it was the dodge dart, but i don't remember precisely.

i saw it on the history channel a while back

 

[compman25]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: zerocool84
Put modern rubber on them and it'll help so much. I used to be into racing my old VW Bug at the drag and the old timers told me that the rubber is so much better now-a-days that it makes a huge difference.

You also have to remember that those 0-60 times were super fast back then.

some cars did 11's straight of the factory though, so they weren't all slow

Which factory cars? Are you thinking of dealer modified cars sold as new?

i want to say it was the dodge dart, but i don't remember precisely.

i saw it on the history channel a while back

Ford T-Bolt

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: Billb2
There were suspension problems too back then.
Six cylinder cars used the same suspension as their "muscle car" versions.
After market traction bars and stiffer springs helped and some people replaced the panhard bar with a wats link.

Anyone remember their first experience with slicks in the rain?

I don't think that's entirely true. Every time an I-6 guy show up at the Mustang forum I frequent, they always ask how to drop a V-8 in. Every time they get a lecture on how different the front end is. Even the spindles are different.

 

[TehMac]

Also, I have another question about carburetor and direct injected engines. It seems carburetors were necessary because they directed airflow into these engines.

So basically a lot of V8s like the 289 were very good so long as they had a high performance carburetor. Is this sort of like supercharging, only carburetors were a requirement for all non Fuel injected vehicles?

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: compman25
Ford T-Bolt

That's right, that thing did do 11's which is fast even by today's standards. I wonder what sort of tires they were using, the thing had around 500 horsepower (whether that is underrated or not, I don't know).

I wonder what 0-60 was. Probably lightening fast for the times.