Have you ever flip-flopped?

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Now that's just sad. As far as I can see, you are pretty much saying, "Well, at first I was disgusted with the status quo and joined a party that matched my beliefs. But that seemed like a lot of work, so I became a Republican instead." Seems like there is a bumper sticker in there somewhere.

There is a difference between working for positive change and just wasting your time. The Libertarian Party is a joke. The last official newsletter that they sent me had a small article about a woman complaining that animals shouldn't be hunted because they are "free" and that people who hunt them infringe on their "freedoms." There were also several other articles that made me come to the conclusion that the name should actually be the Liberaltarian Party.

Originally posted by: Rainsford
After readying those posts as well, I have a hard time buying that Halos was EVER a libertarian, except maybe in name only because he thought it sounded cool. Libertarians are about freedom, both economic and personal. Halos seems to favor malicious interference, basically the same as hard core extremist liberals, but with a different agenda.

Nope, I was quite idealistic. I ran with the College / Young Republicans back in the mid '90's and we championed the conservative causes. Then when I saw what the national level GOP was about, it disgusted me. Where were the ideals that I held dearly? Liberty, freedom, small government, etc. What a bunch of B.S. with the national GOP.

So I signed up with the Libertarians - if you thought spreading conservative ideas was hard, try spreading true Jeffersonian libertarian ideals. 99% of the people will think you are nuts advocating a government very similar to that of Thomas Jefferson's presidency.

So it is with a hardened-heart and a bitter, bile taste in my mouth over the lessons I learned about how the world really works, that I have signed back up with the GOP. Yes, they have gotten worse since I left them before, but I have learned to accept it because it is profitable. Plus, for you conspiracy-theorists out there, I'm not on any "list." (See Fahrenheit 9/11 for a couple examples.) My credit card statements show payments to the GOP and George W. Bush.

If you are dead, what good are you? Why fight the system if you can work within the system? It is only when the vast majority of people feel disenfranchised and that there is no way to work within the system does meaningful change actually occur. That's not happening now, so I'm towing the party line and maintaining the status quo since it benefits me.

 

[Stunt]

^^Always wondered what kind of fool would actually donate to GOP/Bush.
I mean i can understand voting for them (barely, given the choices)
but investing in them?!...hehe. Can anyone say DUPED??

"If you are dead, what good are you? Why fight the system if you can work within the system?"

If you want to work within the system to plunder for oil and waste hundreds of billions on war sacraficing lives and opportunities, i'm sorry but i'd rather see you "die for your beliefs".

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: Stunt
^^Always wondered what kind of fool would actually donate to GOP/Bush.
I mean i can understand voting for them (barely, given the choices)
but investing in them?!...hehe. Can anyone say DUPED??

If you read my post, you would see that I was investing in myself. Call me a little paranoid, but I like to be on Bush's "good list" as compared to the people in Fahrenheit 9/11 who were on this administration's "terrorist list."

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: Stunt
^^Always wondered what kind of fool would actually donate to GOP/Bush.
I mean i can understand voting for them (barely, given the choices)
but investing in them?!...hehe. Can anyone say DUPED??

If you read my post, you would see that I was investing in myself. Call me a little paranoid, but I like to be on Bush's "good list" as compared to the people in Fahrenheit 9/11 who were on this administration's "terrorist list."

When Bush said "with us or against" us he didnt mean that if you voted against him he would put you on the terrorist list...nor are the liberals on the terrorist list. Sombody is a little paranoid. (hehe, you said that too)

I can see how you are enjoying the money from your investments in hiliburton etc. and i can see how you are loving your tax cuts. But you feel no shame in supporting war for the sake of war? No sympathy for the fallen soldiers?

And what if the war and tax cuts send the US into economic collapse, will you mind being downsized or fired for a few extra percent made on investments?

 

[gutharius]

Basically my experience on P&N has pushed me towards the middle and it has strenghtened my resolve to show compassion for my fellow person as so little is displayed on P&N by said extremists.

Edit: Tho' I still identify with a liberal cause and value's system.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
I was disgusted with politics in general in the very late '90's and switched from Republican to Libertarian. The Party of ideals! The Party of small government! The Party of a utopian republic! The Party of honest money and banking! I voted for the Libertarian candidate in 2000 Harry Browne, not Bush.

Then, in mid-2003, after the Iraq war began (which I opposed on constitutional reasons - Congress did not offer an official declaration of war as stated they must do in Article 1, Sectioin 8) and I saw how my managed portfolio gained a lot due to the defense and oil investments, I signed back up with the Republicans and threw my support behind Bush. The very important lesson that I learned was that you can't beat them, so join them. Only a very few times in history have a people been able to fight the system and win. The vast majority of them died. I would rather be alive and rich than die for my beliefs.

Funny, I'm the opposite. I'd rather die for my beliefs.

A tree that stands for nothing, is tomorrows tinder.

 

[DaFinn]

I was against flip-flopping, before I was for it...

 

[miketheidiot]

I have been a political junky since I was a very little kid. I was raised a republican, actually had views similar to riporin. Around 10-11 started to have by doubts, became effectively an imperial democrat, still the extreme nationalism, just different means I guess. Somewhere along the line, probably around lately clinton years, quite likely due to monika, I became a dittohead (listened to rush a lot :roll. Supported bush fanatically in 2000, believed McCain was a traitor (cause bush ssaid so), Reagan was a saint, carter was the worst president in american history, etc. I would have completely agreed with my sig at the time. In 2000-2001 i got the internet And stubled across a very liberal online forum frequented by european college students, advocated the radical american nationalist line, eventually got banned. Coincidently at the same time all political speech in this forum was banned. Around that time I because an "agnostic", still a radical bush supporter even though I was annoyed with his whole religion thing.

I think the first real crack in the republican shell happened in econ. Teacher was a republican, kind of an eisenhower type, vietnam veteran, and talked alot about how things happened and such, and as soon as we got to macroeconomics, said a good thing here about swedish socialism, then talked about higher oil prices (which I finally realized that he was talking about peak oil a few months ago), said a good thing or two about the U.N. and finally ripped into supply-side economics. A few doubts had been planted. This was durring the runnup to and execution of the iraq war (I supported any reason given, burned a french flag and almost signed up for service to do my noble deeds.

Next year I have to crazy liberals teachers, in psychology a passive aggressive, fairly obnoxious guy that never stopped advocating his viewpoint, and in US history a crazy laidback hippy socialist, who actually managed to teach a fairly moderate class. Anyways, their was a good mix of liberal and conservative in the class, and the in class debate really gave me the first showing of the other side arguement and i conceeded many of their points, begining with gay issues and moving onward. Began to oppose the war, at first for its poor execution, then strategically, and finally morally. Around the same time I read an old article opposing the "Moral" Majority, and agreed with many of its points. I began reading a history of the US that told the whole story of some of our events, and I was disgusted, particularily with the economic parts, and at the same time I read 1984 (again), and unfortunately saw WAY to much similarity for my tastes, and on top of that I read the PNAC Rebuilding Americas Defenses this (linked in halopumas sig) and before you know it I was a socialist. Some of the things I have been exposed to since I got here have pulled me further left (peak oil) other pushed me left (anarco-capitalism, conservatives in general ), and the only issue I can think of off the top of my head were I have gone to the right is gun-control, although my opinion on the subject is moderate at best.

Anyways there my political philosophy history.

 

[Schrodinger]

Abortion
Switched to the right
(Not because of P&N)

I didn't give the issue enough thought, really. Once I looked at it more in depth I realized how much my actual view and my political & legal stance conflicted. I tried to say that I believed in the right for women to choose, but when I really analyzed my personal view (that it was murder)--I could no longer support abortion nor its legalization.

For me to say that its up to the mother and that everyone should mind their own body--I just couldn't agree with that. Especially when I sincerely feel it is murder...I couldn't just go ahead as long as I knew that I would never support it when it comes to me or my spouse. I could no longer ignore the voices of the unheard just because they were technically relying on someone else' body.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Used to be more centrist, but either I've moved left or the nation has swung right. I haven't decided which.

 

[daveshel]

If the world around you changes and you don't, it may be a sign that you are dead.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: Stunt
^^Always wondered what kind of fool would actually donate to GOP/Bush.
I mean i can understand voting for them (barely, given the choices)
but investing in them?!...hehe. Can anyone say DUPED??

If you read my post, you would see that I was investing in myself. Call me a little paranoid, but I like to be on Bush's "good list" as compared to the people in Fahrenheit 9/11 who were on this administration's "terrorist list."

If poeple though like you, we would still be a British Colony.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: Stunt
^^Always wondered what kind of fool would actually donate to GOP/Bush.
I mean i can understand voting for them (barely, given the choices)
but investing in them?!...hehe. Can anyone say DUPED??

If you read my post, you would see that I was investing in myself. Call me a little paranoid, but I like to be on Bush's "good list" as compared to the people in Fahrenheit 9/11 who were on this administration's "terrorist list."

If poeple though like you, we would still be a British Colony.

Hey! and there's something wrong with that ?!
we've been a colony (Canada), aussies, HK (not anymore), pakistan, new zealand, india, singapore etc.
Members

ps. i couldnt give a crap either way...hehe

 

[NJDevil]

Btw Stunt,

Why refer to it as flip flopping? It's just a stupid label, and since when is changing your opinion when faced with facts that contradict it a bad thing?

Example: I was for the war in March 03 because of the WMD's. None were found and now I wish we hadn't went in. Does that make me a flip flopper or logical/rational (not to say supporters of the Iraq war are irrational)?

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: NJDevil
Btw Stunt,

Why refer to it as flip flopping? It's just a stupid label, and since when is changing your opinion when faced with facts that contradict it a bad thing?

Example: I was for the war in March 03 because of the WMD's. None were found and now I wish we hadn't went in. Does that make me a flip flopper or logical/rational (not to say supporters of the Iraq war are irrational)?

I dont think flipflopping is a bad thing at all. If you are changing your mind, it usually means you are becoming more informed on a topic. So much so that you have changed your views on the matter or at least recognize the other side of the equation.

It became a stupid label just because of the latest election. Some people think that liberal is an insult as well. Is it?...no. But i can still use both terms to decribe, not intending it to be an insult or a label.

Where did i say it was a bad thing, or are you assuming that i mean it like that?

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

I flip flopped from "pro Bush" to "Bush is an idiot".

Ain't that a b!tch

 

[Pliablemoose]

In general, I was more centrist, leaning liberal, as a result of hanging in P&N, I'm much more conservative.

The kind of stuff that's pushed me more right are the threads by liberal posters about:

-OMFG Bev Harris says the vote was hacked, I want a dozen recounts till the results agree with my personal agenda.

-OMFG the anti RNC protestors in NYC were locked up for hours & hours

-"I'm poor so I think the sky is falling & the repugs are manipulating the price of oil & the economy & in fact the whole world against me." (and I can accept no personal responsibility for my situation, so I'm going to call names over the internet).

-GWB is a war criminal & needs to be brought to trial for war crimes.

-The blatant class bias I've seen posted over & over again by "social progressives"

-The blatant intolerance of belief systems I see posted over & over by liberal posters.

& my personal favorite: "I work for the military industrial complex, but I'm anti war.":disgust:

The basic Progressive vision is of community as a caring, responsible family. Progressives envision a community where people care about each other, not just themselves, and act responsibly with strength and effectiveness for each other.

That's something the liberals could rally around, but all is see is bashing, bitching, & gnashing of teeth.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004
I flip flopped from "pro Bush" to "Bush is an idiot".

Ain't that a b!tch

I think everyone went through those two stages. but had a third one just before the election. "Kerry is an idiot".

Whether that was a correct analysis is questionable. I kinda liked the guy. He didnt deserve the attacks he was getting though. I mean the guy did fight for his country and he got sh!t on so bad.

 

[NJDevil]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
In general, I was more centrist, leaning liberal, as a result of hanging in P&N, I'm much more conservative.

The kind of stuff that's pushed me more right are the threads by liberal posters about:

-OMFG Bev Harris says the vote was hacked, I want a dozen recounts till the results agree with my personal agenda.

-OMFG the anti RNC protestors in NYC were locked up for hours & hours

-"I'm poor so I think the sky is falling & the repugs are manipulating the price of oil & the economy & in fact the whole world against me." (and I can accept no personal responsibility for my situation, so I'm going to call names over the internet).

-GWB is a war criminal & needs to be brought to trial for war crimes.

-The blatant class bias I've seen posted over & over again by "social progressives"

-The blatant intolerance of belief systems I see posted over & over by liberal posters.

The basic Progressive vision is of community as a caring, responsible family. Progressives envision a community where people care about each other, not just themselves, and act responsibly with strength and effectiveness for each other.

That's something the liberals could rally around, but all is see is bashing, bitching, & gnashing of teeth.

That's very true on this board. So many stupid people giving liberals a bad name. There are plenty of conservatives doing the same but I think you're right in that there are more left than right extremists here. Personally, I'm sick of both.

As Chris Rock said, "Anyone who makes up their mind before hearing the issue is a f****** fool"
And that's exactly what most extremists do.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: NJDevil

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
In general, I was more centrist, leaning liberal, as a result of hanging in P&N, I'm much more conservative.

The kind of stuff that's pushed me more right are the threads by liberal posters about:

-OMFG Bev Harris says the vote was hacked, I want a dozen recounts till the results agree with my personal agenda.

-OMFG the anti RNC protestors in NYC were locked up for hours & hours

-"I'm poor so I think the sky is falling & the repugs are manipulating the price of oil & the economy & in fact the whole world against me." (and I can accept no personal responsibility for my situation, so I'm going to call names over the internet).

-GWB is a war criminal & needs to be brought to trial for war crimes.

-The blatant class bias I've seen posted over & over again by "social progressives"

-The blatant intolerance of belief systems I see posted over & over by liberal posters.

The basic Progressive vision is of community as a caring, responsible family. Progressives envision a community where people care about each other, not just themselves, and act responsibly with strength and effectiveness for each other.

That's something the liberals could rally around, but all is see is bashing, bitching, & gnashing of teeth.

That's very true on this board. So many stupid people giving liberals a bad name. There are plenty of conservatives doing the same but I think you're right in that there are more left than right extremists here. Personally, I'm sick of both.

As Chris Rock said, "Anyone who makes up their mind before hearing the issue is a f****** fool"
And that's exactly what most extremists do.

100% agree with chris rock i saw that one...pretty funny.

But i disagree with liberals giving 'more' of a bad name.
i think both extremists are a little off their horses.
although if you look at what the extremists are supporting. the extreme conservatives support war, death penalty, little environmental control, etc.
these are far worse than a liberal with a wacked out conpiracy theory. Liberals limit physical damage like pollution, murder and death.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Stunt

But i disagree with liberals giving 'more' of a bad name.
i think both extremists are a little off their horses.
although if you look at what the extremists are supporting. the extreme conservatives support war, death penalty, little environmental control, etc.
these are far worse than a liberal with a wacked out conpiracy theory. Liberals limit physical damage like pollution, murder and death.

Don't know if you can say the conservative extremists are so far off the bell curve, a bit farther on the tail of the bell curve, but a majority of Democrats support the death penalty: http://www.pollingreport.com/crime.htm

I guess what I'm saying is many of those in P&N who consider themselves liberal moderates in reality are outliers in the bell curve of Democrat's beliefs.

The Democratic party's stances, as well as the Republican attitudes are moving targets, & I see some serious inflexibility in what's posted here.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: Stunt

But i disagree with liberals giving 'more' of a bad name.
i think both extremists are a little off their horses.
although if you look at what the extremists are supporting. the extreme conservatives support war, death penalty, little environmental control, etc.
these are far worse than a liberal with a wacked out conpiracy theory. Liberals limit physical damage like pollution, murder and death.

Don't know if you can say the conservative extremists are so far off the bell curve, a bit farther on the tail of the bell curve, but a majority of Democrats support the death penalty: http://www.pollingreport.com/crime.htm

I guess what I'm saying is many of those in P&N who consider themselves liberal moderates in reality are outliers in the bell curve of Democrat's beliefs.

The Democratic party's stances, as well as the Republican attitudes are moving targets, & I see some serious inflexibility in what's posted here.

I was discussing extremist liberals versus extremist conservatives.
liberals not always equal to democrats.

extreme liberals are against death penalty.