Governor Bush campaigned against nation building and the use of force to free people. The notion that we invaded Iraq to free the Iraqis is a joke. It's all about an unacknowledged and self admitted realization that the real rationalization wouldn't fly with the American people, a New American Century. They said they needed a Pearl Harbor and ten months into the admin they got it. They sold the war under every pretext imaginable but the real one settling finally on free the Iraqis and WMD. I'm happy for the former, but the Bush admin. sent American Solders to die in a lie that was really about business and money and American profit. All you suckers that bought that lie helped our soldiers and lots and lots of Iraqis die. That should never have happened under a pretext and a lie. Anybody who was truly worried about the Iraqi people would have said so right from the beginning and the debate should have been on whether we send our people to die to save another countries people. The Bush Admin is scum in my opinion, sick psychopathic greed mongers who kill for ideology and a fantasy in their heads. The American people should have been presented with dealt with the real issue, killing for advantage, rather than the lie of liberation. Those cowardly bastards, chicken hawks that never served, sent other men to die for a lie, because they have no faith in their real motive and knew it wouldn't fly. Slime.
LOL. I saw that episode of X-files. It was sweet. This is a tough sell Moonbeam. Your going to have to convince 70% of America that they're idiots. I admire your conviction though.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,390
- 29
- 91
Yes, the Bush administration is lying and you are telling the truth, because...well because you say so. Of course your track record of honesty on this forum is sorely lacking, although it matters nill to the sheep who so enjoy a good conspiracy instead of thinking for themselves. Gov'nr Moonbeam, look in the mirror and meet Slime.
Not to some. Its too early to tell anyway. The end of what? The end of Saddam? I would say its justified in my opinion, I doubt the people are clamoring to have him back. The end of problems for Iraq, its too early. I hope for the best. This is really just the beginning for a country that has been in fear for 30 years. I believe that they have plenty to offer the world and will finally be able to do it. Lets just hope we do it right for them in the mean time and we help them get back on their feet.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,390
- 29
- 91
Let's examine Moonie's last diatribe and see if he's as dishonest as he accuses Bush:
...and a dishonest joke at that. The basis for war agains't Iraq was never to "free the Iraqis". From day one the Bush rationalization was that he did not believe Iraq to be in compliance with the terms of the cease fire agreement outlined in SCR 687.
The freedom of the Iraqi people would merely be a side effect of hostilities against Saddam and his government.
"They"? They who? They the "Bush" admin as you imply?
What a disgusting display of wanton dishonesty, slime indeed! Here we have a liar pointing the finger and screaming "liar". Well, pardon me for the
...and a dishonest joke at that. The basis for war agains't Iraq was never to "free the Iraqis". From day one the Bush rationalization was that he did not believe Iraq to be in compliance with the terms of the cease fire agreement outlined in SCR 687.
The freedom of the Iraqi people would merely be a side effect of hostilities against Saddam and his government.
"They"? They who? They the "Bush" admin as you imply?
What a disgusting display of wanton dishonesty, slime indeed! Here we have a liar pointing the finger and screaming "liar". Well, pardon me for the
As I've said, jellybelly, phillyjim, moonbeam, I do have to touch base in here evert now and then to prove my endearing philosophy:
No matter where you go in life, you can always find an arsehole.
No matter where you go in life, you can always find an arsehole.
Corn: Yes, the Bush administration is lying and you are telling the truth, because...well because you say so. Of course your track record of honesty on this forum is sorely lacking, although it matters nill to the sheep who so enjoy a good conspiracy instead of thinking for themselves. Gov'nr Moonbeam, look in the mirror and meet Slime.
--------------------------
Been there and done that, Corn.
What you did here, Corn, is state your opinion. That's what I did. Two opinions float in the air and you call me the liar. My opinion it that you are the one practicing self deceit. You have simply bought into a conspiracy theory all your own. In my opinion we see the Doctrine for the new American Century published in 98 and quoted from plus reference to the string of excuses trotted out by the Bush Admin. In your opinion we have nothing but hot air. Nil.
--------------------------
Been there and done that, Corn.
What you did here, Corn, is state your opinion. That's what I did. Two opinions float in the air and you call me the liar. My opinion it that you are the one practicing self deceit. You have simply bought into a conspiracy theory all your own. In my opinion we see the Doctrine for the new American Century published in 98 and quoted from plus reference to the string of excuses trotted out by the Bush Admin. In your opinion we have nothing but hot air. Nil.
No matter where you go in life, you can always find an arsehole.
------------------------------------
That will certainly always prove true for you.
------------------------------------
That will certainly always prove true for you.
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
No matter where you go in life, you can always find an arsehole.
------------------------------------
That will certainly always prove true for you.
I don't know about you moonbeam but I'd be pretty frightened if I woke up one morning and didn't have an arsehole.
What was this thread about again? Oh yeah. My stance hasn't changed yet. I think we're doing more good than harm. I just hope we keep doing well and keep helping these people. I really don't care if Bush gets rich off of this some how, the Iraqi people will be free. Someday an Iraqi may find the cure for SARS...
Someday an Iraqi may find the cure for SARS...
----------------------
That one died in the bombing.
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That one died in the bombing.
Corn
Diamond Member
- Nov 12, 1999
- 6,390
- 29
- 91
No Moonie, I stated a fact.
No Moonie, you lied, then used that lie to state an opinion.
The difference is I provided 2 examples of your pathological aversion to honestly in representing the "facts" (yeah, in your case I use that term very loosly) that support your "opinions".
Aww, isn't that cute!!!
Look everyone, Moonie thinks I'm practicing "self deceit". Isn't that special? I probably hate myself too, don't I?
The fact that you, and others of your ilk misrepresent the context of the "catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor" phrase from the PNAC "report" does not even begin to support your implication of clairvoyance by PNAC or conspiracy of the Bush administration.
Yep, that about sums it up......
Another one of Hussein's mistakes then...
If somebody is pushing people into oncoming traffic, I blame the person doing the pushing, not the driver of the car for whatever mess ensues.
If somebody is pushing people into oncoming traffic, I blame the person doing the pushing, not the driver of the car for whatever mess ensues.
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Yup, Saddam pushed the button to open the payload doors.
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Yup, Saddam pushed the button to open the payload doors.
The problem with your statement is that many of the people in THIS Bush administration . . . fully understood Saddam's nature nearly two decades ago . . . but then he was considered an ally . . . or at the very least; useful.
Almost . . . I believe Bush believes that invading Iraq is justifiable on moral grounds and as the denouement of the Gulf War. The problem with Bush (and his administration) they do not believe that ending oppressive regimes ALONE is justification for US intervention. Iraqi Freedom was certainly an intended consequence but the administration should NEVER have pertetrated the fraud of calling it a primary reason for the invasion. Nobody believes it . . . furthermore we (US foreign policy) have no intentions of living up to the moniker.
Bush/Blair support in the US/UK would have evaporated if Saddam had the semblance of popular support in Iraq, because thousands more would have died trying to defend the regime. The ends NEVER justify the means if the means are immoral. Most decent people can acknowledge that Truth.
Of course ending oppressive regimes ALONE is a justification. But its more likely to happen if there are other reasons for it too. We can't run around to every single oppressive regime out there and end them unfortunately, but I don't believe we should let them all run around out there. If we have something to gain from it too, so be it. It has to be paid for somehow.
I believe that the end is moral, at least the end that I support, if Bush can't live up to it, I'll revoke my support and shove my foot so far in my mouth that I can kick my own @ss. I'm not happy with everything he is doing, but I think Bush among other things wants what is best for Iraq.
Of course ending oppressive regimes ALONE is a justification. But its more likely to happen if there are other reasons for it too. We can't run around to every single oppressive regime out there and end them unfortunately, but I don't believe we should let them all run around out there. If we have something to gain from it too, so be it. It has to be paid for somehow.
I believe that the end is moral, at least the end that I support, if Bush can't live up to it, I'll revoke my support and shove my foot so far in my mouth that I can kick my own @ss. I'm not happy with everything he is doing, but I think Bush among other things wants what is best for Iraq.
------------------
That would be nice except for the evidence. Like Bali said, you either understand the edns don't justify the means or you don't. It's what separates moral people from animals.
I believe that the end is moral, at least the end that I support, if Bush can't live up to it, I'll revoke my support and shove my foot so far in my mouth that I can kick my own @ss. I'm not happy with everything he is doing, but I think Bush among other things wants what is best for Iraq.
------------------
That would be nice except for the evidence. Like Bali said, you either understand the edns don't justify the means or you don't. It's what separates moral people from animals.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Have you changed your stance about Iraq since the war began?
Nope. It was wrong before, and it's still wrong. I am happy it has been so successful so far, and I hope it continues to go well. Nonetheless, the end does NOT justify the means. And even though casualties have been relatively light, we still killed and maimed thousands of decent human beings, men and women and children whose only "crime" was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That cannot be justified without extraordinarily good cause, something this war has always lacked (IMHO, of course).
And, as I said in another thread, this isn't over yet. We can't become complacent; there are still major challenges ahead.
Nope. It was wrong before, and it's still wrong. I am happy it has been so successful so far, and I hope it continues to go well. Nonetheless, the end does NOT justify the means. And even though casualties have been relatively light, we still killed and maimed thousands of decent human beings, men and women and children whose only "crime" was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That cannot be justified without extraordinarily good cause, something this war has always lacked (IMHO, of course).
And, as I said in another thread, this isn't over yet. We can't become complacent; there are still major challenges ahead.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Sorry, no sale. I support the country, but I don't support Bush. Most of the world is savvy enough to recognize that this was Bush's war, not America's war, and their loathing will be justifiably directed at the Bush administration. Indeed, much of the world already loathed Bush, and they loathed us for being dumb enough to elect him. Fortunately, we can change that in another 19 months or so.
By the way, NOT finding WMDs has little to do with the overall success of the war. I hope we are successful in rebuilding a stable, democratic Iraq. If Bush looks bad because the WMDs are proved to be a lie, that's just icing on the cake.
In some ways life WAS better under the Taliban than immediately following soviet occupation, they did provide a vairety of services including security ala Islamic law and brought $$$$ into the region. Everything isnt black and white....
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