Have High Blood Pressure?

[eits]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
Makes some sense. But I am still never, ever, ever going to let a random chiropractor adjust anything near my neck. It would require detailed research before I would even begin to trust a chiropractor with my neck.

why?

Because not all chiropractors know what the hell they are doing, and neck adjustments can lead to serious injury in the hands of quacks.

I have been to a chiropractor a few times. They all did wonders with my back issues and ALL of them felt compelled to adjust my neck and hurt me.

QFT. I had paralysis in my left hand from a chiropratic visit that required me going to a real doctor to get fixed through surgery. :beer: for chiropractors with supposedly "great" reputations.

what kind of surgery?

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Mwilding

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
Makes some sense. But I am still never, ever, ever going to let a random chiropractor adjust anything near my neck. It would require detailed research before I would even begin to trust a chiropractor with my neck.

why?

Because not all chiropractors know what the hell they are doing, and neck adjustments can lead to serious injury in the hands of quacks.

I have been to a chiropractor a few times. They all did wonders with my back issues and ALL of them felt compelled to adjust my neck and hurt me.

Just like with any doctor, you can refuse treatment. If you have a serious neck issue (to where you have had screws/implant or other surgery or whatnot), then most won't even think about it. My parents go for lower back issues, but won't let the chiropractor adjust the neck for that same reason. Just be up front and frank about it. If they try to force the issue after that, find another one to take yourself to. Don't deny yourself the care that you do find beneficial just because of that...You wouldn't for a medical doctor...

:thumbsup:

 

[Adul]

Originally posted by: torpid
Makes some sense. But I am still never, ever, ever going to let a random chiropractor adjust anything near my neck. It would require detailed research before I would even begin to trust a chiropractor with my neck.

bad expreince I take it.

Its the sole reason I go to one. My chiro doesnt do the cracking method though, uses a tool caleld actuator for that. Now if I where to listen to him more and do the things he suggest I wouldnt need to see him twice a month 😛.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
Considering they are adjusting the neck specifically to alter how it affects certain blood vessels, I think there is probably a higher chance of injury when adjusting a neck to affect blood pressure than there would be otherwise. And in any case, my default assumption about chiropractors is that they are not to be trusted with my neck. Similarly, there are certainly some really good car salespeople out there, but I distrust them by default.

they're not. they're adjusting the neck specifically to alter nerve function.

i fail to see the connection between someone who treats nervous system imbalances to treat ailments in the human body with someone who tries to get you a deal on an '08 malibu.

A nerve is a type of blood vessel.

Altering nerve function = altering blood vessels.

The connection is, and you seem to agree to a limited degree, that a car salesperson is probably trying to screw you out of money by lying to you, and I feel the same is true of a random chiropractor.

what???

care to explain that one to me?

Sorry, I was confusing them with veins. No coffee. But the procedure is intended to alter blood flow, which has nothing to do with nerves. Thus my confusion when you mentioned nerves.

no, the procedure is intended to alter nerve function. not blood flow.

Then it is mere coincidence that it affects blood flow? More proof that chiropractors base their techniques off guesswork.

what do nerves control?

hint: "every organ in your body"

do me a favor... do a google search on the vagus nerve... also look up the vagus nerve ganglion. try and make the correlation between adjusting the top of your neck and the vagus nerve as it pertains to lowering blood pressure.

I will. Now you do me a favor and provide a link that supports your statement, since the link you posted in your OP clearly indicates that it is more than nerves affected by this adjustment.

go do the google search and read up on what i told you to... then tell me if you'd still like me to provide you with a link that explains the correlation between affecting vagal tone and changes in blood pressure.

seriously, this seems absolutely silly now. it's almost like i'm asking you to count with your fingers to prove that 5+5=10 and you're asking me to show you a link that explains the correlation between adding 5 to another 5 and how it could possibly become 10.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Adul

Originally posted by: torpid
Makes some sense. But I am still never, ever, ever going to let a random chiropractor adjust anything near my neck. It would require detailed research before I would even begin to trust a chiropractor with my neck.

bad expreince I take it.

Its the sole reason I go to one. My chiro doesnt do the cracking method though, uses a tool caleld actuator for that. Now if I where to listen to him more and do the things he suggest I wouldnt need to see him twice a month 😛.

it's called an activator.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
I will. Now you do me a favor and provide a link that supports your statement, since the link you posted in your OP clearly indicates that it is more than nerves affected by this adjustment.

go do the google search and read up on what i told you to... then tell me if you'd still like me to provide you with a link that explains the correlation between affecting vagal tone and changes in blood pressure.

seriously, this seems absolutely silly now. it's almost like i'm asking you to count with your fingers to prove that 5+5=10 and you're asking me to show you a link that explains the correlation between adding 5 to another 5 and how it could possibly become 10.

No. If we are using this analogy, you posted a link stating that 5+5=11 in your OP and offered it as evidence that chiropractors are good. It was your link. Read it.

Furthermore, I did google the vagus nerve and what I have yet to see is any evidence that a chiropractic neck adjustment stimulates it in this manner long term. I do see other techniques that stimulate it, though, that don't involve any sort of neck adjustment. Regardless of whether or not this technique adjusts nerve flow, it seems reasonable to me that if the technique can cause stroke through constriction, then using the technique to intentionally directly or indirectly alter the flow of blood to the brain is not something I'd want a random person with unknown credentials to do.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
I will. Now you do me a favor and provide a link that supports your statement, since the link you posted in your OP clearly indicates that it is more than nerves affected by this adjustment.

go do the google search and read up on what i told you to... then tell me if you'd still like me to provide you with a link that explains the correlation between affecting vagal tone and changes in blood pressure.

seriously, this seems absolutely silly now. it's almost like i'm asking you to count with your fingers to prove that 5+5=10 and you're asking me to show you a link that explains the correlation between adding 5 to another 5 and how it could possibly become 10.

No. If we are using this analogy, you posted a link stating that 5+5=11 in your OP and offered it as evidence that chiropractors are good. It was your link. Read it.

Furthermore, I did google the vagus nerve and what I have yet to see is any evidence that a chiropractic neck adjustment stimulates it in this manner long term. I do see other techniques that stimulate it, though, that don't involve any sort of neck adjustment. Regardless of whether or not this technique adjusts nerve flow, it seems reasonable to me that if the technique can cause stroke through constriction, then using the technique to intentionally directly or indirectly alter the flow of blood to the brain is not something I'd want a random person with unknown credentials to do.

Tell us how you really feel! 😀

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
I will. Now you do me a favor and provide a link that supports your statement, since the link you posted in your OP clearly indicates that it is more than nerves affected by this adjustment.

go do the google search and read up on what i told you to... then tell me if you'd still like me to provide you with a link that explains the correlation between affecting vagal tone and changes in blood pressure.

seriously, this seems absolutely silly now. it's almost like i'm asking you to count with your fingers to prove that 5+5=10 and you're asking me to show you a link that explains the correlation between adding 5 to another 5 and how it could possibly become 10.

No. If we are using this analogy, you posted a link stating that 5+5=11 in your OP and offered it as evidence that chiropractors are good. It was your link. Read it.

Furthermore, I did google the vagus nerve and what I have yet to see is any evidence that a chiropractic neck adjustment stimulates it in this manner long term. I do see other techniques that stimulate it, though, that don't involve any sort of neck adjustment. Regardless of whether or not this technique adjusts nerve flow, it seems reasonable to me that if the technique can cause stroke through constriction, then using the technique to intentionally directly or indirectly alter the flow of blood to the brain is not something I'd want a random person with unknown credentials to do.

no, actually. your analogy is way off, because affecting the vagus nerve affects the heart, which affects blood pressure. if there's a biomechanical problem which is altering the nerve's ability to fire regularly, then you remove the interference so that it fires properly. also, based on the technique, there's no possibility to cause a stroke via constriction.

i wouldn't want some random person with unknown credentials to adjust my neck either... just someone who's got a bachelor's degree and a doctorate in chiropractic from an accredited college.

5+5=10.

 

[Amused]

1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I went to a chiropractor once as my wife insisted. I thought what he did to 'heal' me was pretty retarded... he gave me some bear hugs. I don't think I will see another one. Ever.

 

[EGGO]

Didn't Penn and Teller call bullshit on Chiropractic medicine?

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: EGGO
Didn't Penn and Teller call bullshit on Chiropractic medicine?

I'm sure you would trust their legal advice just as much... Seriously? Penn and Teller?

😕

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
I will. Now you do me a favor and provide a link that supports your statement, since the link you posted in your OP clearly indicates that it is more than nerves affected by this adjustment.

go do the google search and read up on what i told you to... then tell me if you'd still like me to provide you with a link that explains the correlation between affecting vagal tone and changes in blood pressure.

seriously, this seems absolutely silly now. it's almost like i'm asking you to count with your fingers to prove that 5+5=10 and you're asking me to show you a link that explains the correlation between adding 5 to another 5 and how it could possibly become 10.

No. If we are using this analogy, you posted a link stating that 5+5=11 in your OP and offered it as evidence that chiropractors are good. It was your link. Read it.

Furthermore, I did google the vagus nerve and what I have yet to see is any evidence that a chiropractic neck adjustment stimulates it in this manner long term. I do see other techniques that stimulate it, though, that don't involve any sort of neck adjustment. Regardless of whether or not this technique adjusts nerve flow, it seems reasonable to me that if the technique can cause stroke through constriction, then using the technique to intentionally directly or indirectly alter the flow of blood to the brain is not something I'd want a random person with unknown credentials to do.

no, actually. your analogy is way off, because affecting the vagus nerve affects the heart, which affects blood pressure. if there's a biomechanical problem which is altering the nerve's ability to fire regularly, then you remove the interference so that it fires properly. also, based on the technique, there's no possibility to cause a stroke via constriction.

i wouldn't want some random person with unknown credentials to adjust my neck either... just someone who's got a bachelor's degree and a doctorate in chiropractic from an accredited college.

5+5=10.

What's "my analogy"? Are you referring to the car salesman analogy? 😕 You are the one who brought up 5+5.

You directly stated that the purpose of the technique was to alter nerve function and not blood vessel function. The article you posted indicates otherwise. Here is a direct quote since you don't seem willing to read it...

The idea behind the realignment is that the C-1 vertebra, located at the top of the spine, operates like a fuse box in the body. When it's twisted, it can pinch arteries and nerves at the neck's base, which not only causes discomfort but also affects blood flow.

This was the point I made above which you don't seem to get. The link does not agree entirely with your statements in this thread. Most of what you wrote was highly informative so thanks. But in this case there is a direct conflict with what you wrote.

Also per the article, it is a very specialized chiropractice technique, so it would not be wise to trust anyone with a chiropractic degree. Similarly, I would not trust any random person with a medical degree to perform open heart surgery.

So again, my original statement, before I showed myself to be a total idiot, is valid. I would not trust any chiropractor to perform this technique without careful research. And even with careful research of a chiropractor, I am not sure this would be the optimal technique without further study.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

 

[Auryg]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: EGGO
Didn't Penn and Teller call bullshit on Chiropractic medicine?

I'm sure you would trust their legal advice just as much... Seriously? Penn and Teller?

😕

Actually, they only called bullshit on the "I can cure everything!" ones.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

This is true. And I don't see any mechanism in which adjusting the position of a nerve could affect blood pressure other than by alleviating pain caused by a pinched nerve.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
I will. Now you do me a favor and provide a link that supports your statement, since the link you posted in your OP clearly indicates that it is more than nerves affected by this adjustment.

go do the google search and read up on what i told you to... then tell me if you'd still like me to provide you with a link that explains the correlation between affecting vagal tone and changes in blood pressure.

seriously, this seems absolutely silly now. it's almost like i'm asking you to count with your fingers to prove that 5+5=10 and you're asking me to show you a link that explains the correlation between adding 5 to another 5 and how it could possibly become 10.

No. If we are using this analogy, you posted a link stating that 5+5=11 in your OP and offered it as evidence that chiropractors are good. It was your link. Read it.

Furthermore, I did google the vagus nerve and what I have yet to see is any evidence that a chiropractic neck adjustment stimulates it in this manner long term. I do see other techniques that stimulate it, though, that don't involve any sort of neck adjustment. Regardless of whether or not this technique adjusts nerve flow, it seems reasonable to me that if the technique can cause stroke through constriction, then using the technique to intentionally directly or indirectly alter the flow of blood to the brain is not something I'd want a random person with unknown credentials to do.

no, actually. your analogy is way off, because affecting the vagus nerve affects the heart, which affects blood pressure. if there's a biomechanical problem which is altering the nerve's ability to fire regularly, then you remove the interference so that it fires properly. also, based on the technique, there's no possibility to cause a stroke via constriction.

i wouldn't want some random person with unknown credentials to adjust my neck either... just someone who's got a bachelor's degree and a doctorate in chiropractic from an accredited college.

5+5=10.

What's "my analogy"? Are you referring to the car salesman analogy? 😕 You are the one who brought up 5+5.

You directly stated that the purpose of the technique was to alter nerve function and not blood vessel function. The article you posted indicates otherwise. Here is a direct quote since you don't seem willing to read it...

The idea behind the realignment is that the C-1 vertebra, located at the top of the spine, operates like a fuse box in the body. When it's twisted, it can pinch arteries and nerves at the neck's base, which not only causes discomfort but also affects blood flow.

This was the point I made above which you don't seem to get. The link does not agree entirely with your statements in this thread. Most of what you wrote was highly informative so thanks. But in this case there is a direct conflict with what you wrote.

Also per the article, it is a very specialized chiropractice technique, so it would not be wise to trust anyone with a chiropractic degree. Similarly, I would not trust any random person with a medical degree to perform open heart surgery.

So again, my original statement, before I showed myself to be a total idiot, is valid. I would not trust any chiropractor to perform this technique without careful research. And even with careful research of a chiropractor, I am not sure this would be the optimal technique without further study.

uh, reading comprehension might help you out.

"The idea behind the realignment is that the C-1 vertebra, located at the top of the spine, operates like a fuse box in the body."

.... ok.

"When it's twisted(meaning when c1 is twisted), it can pinch arteries and nerves at the neck's base, which not only causes discomfort but also affects blood flow."

.... that is true.when c1 is misaligned or twisted/rotated, it can pinch arteries and nerves in the neck's base, which not only causes discomfort, but also affects blood flow. that's why you get it adjusted... so that you get rid of the discomfort and to remove the pressure on arteries and nerves.

a "very specialized chiropractic technique" is pretty much any valid chiropractic technique. this article was written for the layperson, not for people like me and other chiropractors. we already know about this stuff. we already know "specialized chiropractic techiques".

a non-specialized, non-specific "chiropractic" technique would be some manipulation someone like a physical therapist might utilize.

let me let you in on a little secret... there's no such thing as an optimal technique. everyone's different and responds differently to different techniques. it's the chiropractor's job to use the best technique for an individual, which may not be the same as another individual with the same exact problem. everyone's structure is different, so where some techniques will fail, others might work and vice versa.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

no, i got his point... which was why i said what i said. you just didn't understand.

pain can't cause hypertension. it can cause a spike in blood pressure.

also, as i said before, everyone's built differently. some people have neck pain that starts in their neck. others have neck pain that starts from having a short leg. if you adjust the neck of the person who's problem starts from having a short leg, it won't help for shit. but if you put a heel lift in the shoe of the short leg side, then you can treat the neck pain.

therefore, you can't just get a large sample of people with neck pain and see if chiropractic adjustments help their pain because it wouldn't be a valid test, considering that chiropractors look at the whole body, not just a symptomatic area. you treat the symptom by finding and fixing the problem... not by treating the symptom.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

no, i got his point... which was why i said what i said. you just didn't understand.

pain can't cause hypertension. it can cause a spike in blood pressure.

also, as i said before, everyone's built differently. some people have neck pain that starts in their neck. others have neck pain that starts from having a short leg. if you adjust the neck of the person who's problem starts from having a short leg, it won't help for shit. but if you put a heel lift in the shoe of the short leg side, then you can treat the neck pain.

therefore, you can't just get a large sample of people with neck pain and see if chiropractic adjustments help their pain because it wouldn't be a valid test, considering that chiropractors look at the whole body, not just a symptomatic area. you treat the symptom by finding and fixing the problem... not by treating the symptom.

Too bad you're not a real doctor:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501272_5

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15722808

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002299.html

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

This is true. And I don't see any mechanism in which adjusting the position of a nerve could affect blood pressure other than by alleviating pain caused by a pinched nerve.

well, that's just because you don't know anything about anatomy and physiology. no offense. it's just that you have a habit of trashing things you don't understand.

quick lesson: nerves need a blood supply, right? so, there are tiny capillaries that go to your nerves to supply them with nutrients like water and glucose (that's the fancy word for sugar... nerves need it to function). well, if there is an impingement (that's an fancy word for "pinching against something"), it causes pressure on the capillaries, which cuts off the flow of nutrients to the nerves. so, your nerve starts to not send the proper signals as it should. for example, have you ever sat in a chair for a long time and when you stand up, your foot's asleep? well, it's not because of voodoo or magic or anything like that. it's because your nerve isn't firing the proper signals because it's been impinged and it's finally starting to send the signals it needs in order to tell you, "hey, dude! walk around a little bit! wake this damn leg up! the nerves need more water and sugar!"

well, if that can happen to a sensory nerve, why can't it happen to a parasympathetic autonomic nerve?

get it?

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

no, i got his point... which was why i said what i said. you just didn't understand.

pain can't cause hypertension. it can cause a spike in blood pressure.

also, as i said before, everyone's built differently. some people have neck pain that starts in their neck. others have neck pain that starts from having a short leg. if you adjust the neck of the person who's problem starts from having a short leg, it won't help for shit. but if you put a heel lift in the shoe of the short leg side, then you can treat the neck pain.

therefore, you can't just get a large sample of people with neck pain and see if chiropractic adjustments help their pain because it wouldn't be a valid test, considering that chiropractors look at the whole body, not just a symptomatic area. you treat the symptom by finding and fixing the problem... not by treating the symptom.

Too bad you're not a real doctor:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501272_5

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15722808

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002299.html

that's chronic pain. different than acute pain, which was what i was talking about because that's what i thought you were talking about.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: eits
.... that is true.when c1 is misaligned or twisted/rotated, it can pinch arteries and nerves in the neck's base, which not only causes discomfort, but also affects blood flow. that's why you get it adjusted... so that you get rid of the discomfort and to remove the pressure on arteries and nerves.

Which means that the technique is meant to alter nerves AND ARTERIES. Here is a quote from you earlier in the thread.

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid
Considering they are adjusting the neck specifically to alter how it affects certain blood vessels [...]

they're not. they're adjusting the neck specifically to alter nerve function.

Let's just call this case closed since it is clear that you now agree that blood vessels are involved as well and the above statement was not entirely accurate. It was of minor significance except that it seemed odd to me that you wrote something that directly contradicted your own posted article.

a "very specialized chiropractic technique" is pretty much any valid chiropractic technique. this article was written for the layperson, not for people like me and other chiropractors. we already know about this stuff. we already know "specialized chiropractic techiques".

a non-specialized, non-specific "chiropractic" technique would be some manipulation someone like a physical therapist might utilize.

The actual quote is as follows:

the procedure requires very special chiropractor training

So your supposition is that the only thing that is "very special" here is the training that ALL chiropractors with a degree receive?? In other words, it should read, "the procedure requires training which any chiropractor with a degree would have"? If so, that is some really stupid wording on their part.

let me let you in on a little secret... there's no such thing as an optimal technique. everyone's different and responds differently to different techniques. it's the chiropractor's job to use the best technique for an individual, which may not be the same as another individual with the same exact problem. everyone's structure is different, so where some techniques will fail, others might work and vice versa.

What is the difference between the "best technique" and the "optimal" one? 😕 Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that a chiropractor may not be medically trained to perform the "optimal" or "best technique" to solve a particular medical problem of an individual. Even if the neck adjustment in question is the optimal chiropractic technique available to chiropractors, it may not be the optimal technique available to all medical practitioners overall.

Assume for a moment that the technique works because of the vagus nerve stimulation involved. There are other means of stimulating the vagus nerve, and those would need to be compared to this technique before we know which one is "better."

 

[Mo0o]

Take some atenolol, see me in 2 weeks. adios

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: Amused
1. The study used too small a sample.

2. They did not account for simple pain relief in the study. They needed a control for this and had none.

i'm confused by what you mean by your second point.

most people have misalignments that don't cause any pain whatsoever. i guarantee that if you were on my table, i'd be able to find some segments that you didn't realize were out of alignment until i pushed around on them (thanks to your group c nerve fibers and your thalamus). either way, it would be acute pain that would cause an increase in blood pressure... which still is not hypertension.

you're right, though... the sample is too small, which is why there are more studies being done with larger sample sizes.

His point, I believe, is that there should be a third group where pain relief is employed for comparison, since pain can cause high blood pressure. If the neck adjustment offered no additional benefit over pain relief, then many would be more inclined to use pain relief over chiropractic care given the costs.

no, i got his point... which was why i said what i said. you just didn't understand.

pain can't cause hypertension. it can cause a spike in blood pressure.

also, as i said before, everyone's built differently. some people have neck pain that starts in their neck. others have neck pain that starts from having a short leg. if you adjust the neck of the person who's problem starts from having a short leg, it won't help for shit. but if you put a heel lift in the shoe of the short leg side, then you can treat the neck pain.

therefore, you can't just get a large sample of people with neck pain and see if chiropractic adjustments help their pain because it wouldn't be a valid test, considering that chiropractors look at the whole body, not just a symptomatic area. you treat the symptom by finding and fixing the problem... not by treating the symptom.

Too bad you're not a real doctor:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501272_5

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15722808

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002299.html

that's chronic pain. different than acute pain, which was what i was talking about because that's what i thought you were talking about.

People with misaligned/burst/slipped disks have chronic pain. It may be more acute at times, but it's a recurring and chronic (long term) pain.

At any rate, pain causes high blood pressure as long as the pain exists.

Which is why I questioned why the study did not address pain relief.