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Haswell starts to squeeze out AMD and NVidia

NTMBK

NTMBK

Lifer
Although PCIe support remains on the PCH (6 PCIe 2.0 lanes), there’s no external PCIe interface from the CPU itself. Any hopes for pairing a meaningfully high performance discrete GPU with Haswell ULT are dead. We didn’t see a ton of Ivy Bridge Ultrabooks with discrete GPUs, but the option simply won’t exist this time around. All of the sudden the creation of Intel’s 28W Haswell ULT with GT3 graphics makes a lot more sense. Haswell ULT lacks native VGA support.
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/7047/the-haswell-ultrabook-review-core-i74500u-tested/2

No more Ultrabooks with discrete GPUs... or at least none with performance you'd want to contemplate. Little bit worrying from a market freedom perspective, even for a believer in APUs like myself.
 
The option will definitely continue to be there. The people who don't mind shelling out $2000++ for the "ultimate" laptop still exist and they will pay whatever it costs to put it together plus a decent markup. There's demand from a few select people and the market will continue to deliver to those.
 
CakeMonster said:
The option will definitely continue to be there. The people who don't mind shelling out $2000++ for the "ultimate" laptop still exist and they will pay whatever it costs to put it together plus a decent markup. There's demand from a few select people and the market will continue to deliver to those.
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The direct CPU PCIe lanes which the GPU would normally be connected to are literally not there- the only way to attach would be through the PCH's lanes, which severely limits performance. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at it if you literally can't make that product.
 
jiffylube1024 said:
Yep. Haswell is a step in the right direction. TDP is way lower without the dGPU.
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ShintaiDK said:
Ultrabooks with discrete GFX is counterintuitive anyway.
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Potentially- as I have said, I'm a believer in APUs and would rather see more of them. But I would also like the market to decide what is the right choice- and to provide an alternative if Intel decides to price Iris prohibitively expensively. But they are locking out those options.
 
NTMBK said:
Potentially- as I have said, I'm a believer in APUs and would rather see more of them. But I would also like the market to decide what is the right choice- and to provide an alternative if Intel decides to price Iris prohibitively expensively. But they are locking out those options.
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How many ultrabooks today are sold with discrete GFX?
 
NTMBK said:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7047/the-haswell-ultrabook-review-core-i74500u-tested/2

No more Ultrabooks with discrete GPUs... or at least none with performance you'd want to contemplate. Little bit worrying from a market freedom perspective, even for a believer in APUs like myself.
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Lenovo will be introducing an AMD Kabini 15" S415 model laptop with discrete Radeon 8000M graphics that boosts performance and will probably be priced much lower than Intel Ultrabooks since chips like the i7-4500u cost almost $400!

Having ability to use discrete GPUs is a good choice and I am glad AMD is providing choices to customers.

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CakeMonster said:
The option will definitely continue to be there. The people who don't mind shelling out $2000++ for the "ultimate" laptop still exist and they will pay whatever it costs to put it together plus a decent markup. There's demand from a few select people and the market will continue to deliver to those.
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There's a difference between full-size laptops and small-form factor ultrabooks; the latter is removing the option for dGPU while the former will still have that option - TDP is much less of a factor in a "performance" machine.

We're talking macbook air's and surface pro type of machines. There's no need for dGPU with this form factor - the super slim, super portable devices really don't have them currently anyway.
 
fusion238 said:
Lenovo will be introducing an AMD Kabini 15" S415 model laptop with discrete Radeon 8000M graphics that boosts performance and will probably be priced much lower than Intel Ultrabooks since chips like the i7-4500u cost almost $400!

Having ability to use discrete GPUs is a good choice and I am glad AMD is providing choices to customers.

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If they can sell it for 400.00 I as I said in another post, that would be a nice package. I dont really see the purpose of a discrete gpu with that chip though. The cpu is already underpowered relative the the igpu. I cant really see doing much more than very light casual gaming on a 11.6 in screen either.

Edit: from another post, looks like the DM1z comes with a 1ghz version of Temesh as well. I would not consider that except perhaps in a tablet. If the 400.00 version only has that chip, it is a no go for me.
 
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NTMBK said:
Potentially- as I have said, I'm a believer in APUs and would rather see more of them. But I would also like the market to decide what is the right choice- and to provide an alternative if Intel decides to price Iris prohibitively expensively. But they are locking out those options.
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The market doesn't decide that integrated APU's have lower TDP and thus much better battery life than CPU + dGPU. But I take your point about Intel essentially having a monopoly at this time in that specific segment.

Wouldn't it be awesome if they could put aside their differences and we had a choice to buy an Intel APU with an Nvidia or AMD GPU under the hood?
 
Does no PCIe lanes also mean no chance for Thuderbolt on ultrabooks?
 
NTMBK said:
Only a handful, but they are out there./QUOTE]

So the market did decide? It sounds like its a niche that couldnt substain itself. It would have to be fitted with a 640M or higher today to matter. And the 640M is 35W TDP. Thats most likely more than the entire rest of the motherboard combined.
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Ken g6 said:
Does no PCIe lanes also mean no chance for Thuderbolt on ultrabooks?
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I'll have to look up the technical specs again, but i'm nearly certain that Thunderbolt is separate from the pci express bus. And this brings up an interesting question - as to whether discrete thunderbolt GPUs become a thing. Personally, I really hope it does - the current solutions for this have questionable performance and high costs, but i'm hoping thunderbolt 2.0 addresses some of these concerns. The absolute biggest detractor for thunderbolt, currently, is cost - the cost is astronomical for cables, peripherals and accessories, I really don't understand it. That's why adoption outside of apple products has been relatively low.
 
Well, I don't want to say I told you so, but I did say that Intel was going to get rid of PCI-E, and this is the first step towards that. No-one believed me when I said it.
 
The market will decide.

On the other hand: I don't understand why somebody would pay over $1000€ for a notebook and have one of the worse gpu performance at the market.
 
jiffylube1024 said:
The market doesn't decide that integrated APU's have lower TDP and thus much better battery life than CPU + dGPU. But I take your point about Intel essentially having a monopoly at this time in that specific segment.

Wouldn't it be awesome if they could put aside their differences and we had a choice to buy an Intel APU with an Nvidia or AMD GPU under the hood?
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You can. Intel aren't preventing that.
They are preventing a few specific models of CPU being used with a discrete GPU.
All the other CPUs are fine.
 
I won't pay more than 399.99 for a notebook. But then again, I don't game on any notebooks nor do I wish to.
 
NTMBK said:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7047/the-haswell-ultrabook-review-core-i74500u-tested/2

No more Ultrabooks with discrete GPUs... or at least none with performance you'd want to contemplate. Little bit worrying from a market freedom perspective, even for a believer in APUs like myself.
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Read the S|A articles on the subject.

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/12/17/intel-slams-the-door-on-discrete-gpus/
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/12/18/how-intel-can-slam-the-door-on-gpus/
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/12/21/intel-cuts-out-gpus-technical-tidbits/
 
VirtualLarry said:
Well, I don't want to say I told you so, but I did say that Intel was going to get rid of PCI-E, and this is the first step towards that. No-one believed me when I said it.
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No disrespect intended, but the doom and gloom stuff that you post about is getting a little long in the tooth. You must realize that computing for all consumers as a whole has shifted from desktops to mobile, and everything intel is doing is presumably related to improving efficiency, combating ARM SOCs, and becoming relevant in the ultra mobile market - understand that intel will be a joke 10 or 20 years from now if they DON'T do this. Now -- is there a place for performance desktops and performance computing despite this? Yes, and performance computing will remain for some time for those that want it. For the broad spectrum of consumers, however, they do not need that.

Sorry for the rant, but presumably intel is doing this to improve the form factors and improve efficiency. If you want a portable computing device which has ipad-like battery life, trade-offs *must* be made - the architecture must change in these ways to accommodate that. Besides which, dGPU is really NOT needed for the affected form factors - ultra slim portables and tablets. I can't see any manufacturer *wanting* to add a 35-45TDP chip to a product that is aiming for maximum battery life. Also, it should be added that this change is only for specific ultra portable form factors - others are not affected. If you want a performance laptop (full size) with a dGPU you still have that option. However, as mentioned earlier, dGPU is really not desirable in a device such as a macbook air or a surface pro.
 
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fusion238 said:
Lenovo will be introducing an AMD Kabini 15" S415 model laptop with discrete Radeon 8000M graphics that boosts performance and will probably be priced much lower than Intel Ultrabooks since chips like the i7-4500u cost almost $400!

Having ability to use discrete GPUs is a good choice and I am glad AMD is providing choices to customers.

11.jpg
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Kabini SoC does not support PCIe x16 either... Only PCIe x4.
 
I wonder how much power they save limiting this option?

Say what you want about dGPUs making sense (or not) -- in Ultrabooks, this move limits the choices of consumers and prevents OEMs from designing certain products (ultrabooks) that include components from some of Intel's competitors. That is the cost we all bear, I wonder what the benefit it.

Until someone can figure that out, we have no way of knowing Intel's motivations. Although certainly it could be a case of two birds one stone 😀
 
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