If you want to be the spelling police on these boards be my guest. Seriously, I would love to see you get up in arms this much over every single mispelling. It would be comical watching you go insane.
If you want to be the spelling police on these boards be my guest. Seriously, I would love to see you get up in arms this much over every single mispelling. It would be comical watching you go insane.
- Jun 2, 2000
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Let's leave anarchists out, they are substantially different in my view. ppatin had a great point about most present day libertarians perhaps really being state's rights "conservatives." I Looked at that way their heroes should be George Wallace and Lester Maddox, not the cherry picking they do from the Founding Fathers.
Maybe libertarianism is at the magic stage between Marx and Lenin-but of course, communism in practice turned out wholely different from what Lenin envisioned.
Maybe libertarianism is at the magic stage between Marx and Lenin-but of course, communism in practice turned out wholely different from what Lenin envisioned.
No there isn't, and one has never really been tried. I think it's too new an idea, too radical, not enough understanding... Much like the ideals of a Constitutional Republic, it also would need to take 100+ years of philosophical advancement and a lot of effort. With the post-Enlightenment period stagnating, I don't see it happening.
And anyone who thinks Somalia represents a libertarian nation is a flat-out dumbshit who needs to disconnect their mouth from the anus in front of them.
And anyone who thinks Somalia represents a libertarian nation is a flat-out dumbshit who needs to disconnect their mouth from the anus in front of them.
HumblePie
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2000
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Libertarianism does include Anarchism in its definition. Meaning that Anarchism is a form of Libertarianism. It is just on one end of the scale for it.
Also, anarchy is listed here as many definitions of Libertarian.
Here's the thing. Anarchy currently as a word has such a huge negative connotation and almost stigma attached to it, that people who are self described Libertarians are loathe to use that word to equate to themselves. It is just basically a name game. Taking on a new name like one takes on new clothes and hopefully it covers the stink associated with it. When it doesn't then another new name is contrived.
Libertarianism does include Anarchism in its definition. Meaning that Anarchism is a form of Libertarianism. It is just on one end of the scale for it.
Also, anarchy is listed here as many definitions of Libertarian.
Here's the thing. Anarchy currently as a word has such a huge negative connotation and almost stigma attached to it, that people who are self described Libertarians are loathe to use that word to equate to themselves. It is just basically a name game. Taking on a new name like one takes on new clothes and hopefully it covers the stink associated with it. When it doesn't then another new name is contrived.
Steeplerot
Lifer
- Mar 29, 2004
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Just curious, what is the point of being a Libertarian if you believe in government...just limited, less then it is now?
That makes you a Republican.
Libertarian is a code word in the USA for nothing less then a Republican with social views that match this actual century we are living in.
- Oct 9, 1999
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Keep lying to all of us if you need to, but your use of the non-word "bafoon" for "buffoon" was not a typo or a simple misspelling.
It's common Engrish.
You were let down by your schools, your parents, and even your peers. Now you are letting yourself down. That last part is just sad.
Back to the topic, I think the OP may be on to something here:
Personally, I believe the ideology of libertarianism suffers from the same overly idealistic shortcomings as the ideology of democracy and the ideology of communism:
The ideology of democracy assumes the "rational, informed voter" and also leans heavily on the assumption that people will put the general interest ahead of their special, personal interest -- as if.
The ideology of communism depends on the assumption of people putting the general, collective interest ahead of their personal interest, and the dangerous and obviously failed belief that the process of the dialectic -- thesis, antithesis, synthesis -- could roll through the "antithesis" stage of giving over ALL power to the state on the way to the synthesis of the state withering away in support of their thesis of the lalalala collective good triumphing . . . again, as if!
Libertarianism, imho, is similarly naive in it''s assumptions.
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QuantumPion
Diamond Member
- Jun 27, 2005
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America up through the early 1900's
Singapore
Hong Kong (not a country but still successful)
Japan during the Meiji period perhaps (I don't know how libertarian the government was, just that they remodeled their society based on free market principles of the British Empire at the time)
I'm sure there are many more periods of successful free market libertarian countries.
Singapore
Hong Kong (not a country but still successful)
Japan during the Meiji period perhaps (I don't know how libertarian the government was, just that they remodeled their society based on free market principles of the British Empire at the time)
I'm sure there are many more periods of successful free market libertarian countries.
Oh god, you really got me there.
Well don't get your hair all in a bouffant over it.
There is no society on earth that's ever been run based on truly libertarian ideals, though many started that way. No matter what, people are and will always be hungry for more power over their fellow human, so libertarian ideals get dropped over time and countries degenerate into other hybrid constructs.
Every country on earth is some sort of hybrid combination of different constructs and philosophies, so you really can't evaluate one particular set of ideas effectively.
Every country on earth is some sort of hybrid combination of different constructs and philosophies, so you really can't evaluate one particular set of ideas effectively.
Isn't a libertarian a person who thinks you can own the air if you have a piece of paper with air and your name on it? A Libertarian is a person who says, Why the fuck can't I own the air if I got my name on it? A Libertarian is a fucker who takes Indian land cause da dumb Indian don't got a deed. You gotta know how to say, I own this fucken place in writing. Theft is fine so long as it's done legally and the other dumb fuck don't know what hit him. Libertarians are men of mental muscle who couldn't hold a piece of land against ants cept as they band together like vigilantes and write their own rules of theft. Libertarians are just thieves in disguise, no?
- Oct 9, 1999
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WOW! Such complete fail with every one of your examples, especially the last three which were/are all societies with incredibly strong state control.
Singapore? I wouldn't know where to start with the long list that could refute that one! The state directed laws and edicts in Singapore are so numerous and SO detailed that the place is a prime example of an anti-libertarian regime!! HOW do you not know that?
Well, maybe this explains why he thinks libertarianism is so awesome. Just confusing it with a benevolent dictatorship.
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Hong Kong is pretty darn close economically. Their government is about 10% of GDP compared to our 30%. Very small welfare state, low taxes, low inflation, low unemployment. It's not perfect, but it's much closer to pure capitalist libertarianism than any other country, and they have been booming like crazy over the past few decades.
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Must be, but HOW do you do that?
It's on a level with, "Keep the government's hands off my Medicare!" :awe:
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- Jun 2, 2000
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I'm personally ruling out Spanish Catalonia as well. In the 1930s there were plenty of very short lived social experiments in Spain, especially communists and anarchists, in small regions. But the fact of the matter in just a few years Franco crushed them all and turned the place into a totalitarian state.
Ukraine during the Russian Revolution? Frankly I know nothing about it, except a general impression that nearly all of Russia back then more resembled medieval serfdom than a modern society. Again, even if it was libertarian it was pretty short lived between the monarchy and getting crushed in the Russian Revolution.
Ukraine during the Russian Revolution? Frankly I know nothing about it, except a general impression that nearly all of Russia back then more resembled medieval serfdom than a modern society. Again, even if it was libertarian it was pretty short lived between the monarchy and getting crushed in the Russian Revolution.
Politically no. Economically (which is what most people think about when they hear the term), absolutely.
Hong Kong is not a country so they don't have to worry about funding things like defense, for example.
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That you think you can be a libertarian state without hewing to political libertarian principles speaks to your fundamental misunderstanding of libertarianism.
Moreover, to cite just one basic specific, to be a economic professional in Hong Kong you MUST pay for, take, and pass a series of state designed and mandated examinations in order to obtain your state license! This, my friend, is NOT libertarianism!
About half of their population lives in public or publicly-subsidized housing.
They also suffer high poverty rates.
This is not to say they are not successful, we just need to better define the term. More successful compared to mixed economies, planned economies, what have you. One could easily make the argument that Singapore has done as well or better, and their government owns about 60% of their GDP through sovereign wealth funds (imagine how our government would be labeled socialist if they purchased enough equity to comprise 60% of our GDP).
The Asian Tigers also have a history of pegging or at least dirty floating their currencies (HK exchanges within a band). You can't deny the importance of mercantilism in the growth of the tigers, something which is hardly free market libertarianism.
We can't even require people get a free state issued ID in order to vote in many areas of the U.S. without being accused of being racists.
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