Has the US withdrawn from the Geneva Convention?

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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so
because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things
that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that
may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as
always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?

- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy
November 24, 1997 One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said
this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind,
gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and
the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is
that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record
rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which
means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably
less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many
violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of
violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We
may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still
remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who
are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme
provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them
sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft
and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg
cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and
other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they
protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need
warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out
there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it.
There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The
moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There
is no safety in denial.
"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for
violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a
capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you
have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a
capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do
you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's
path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal
human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves,
and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes
them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world.
They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want
fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout
their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting
an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands
of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence
than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is
denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too
hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the
wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though,
is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep.
Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be
punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in
a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog
disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the
land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them
traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage
fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog
cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the
wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one
lonely sheepdog.
The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high
school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had
the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just
had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however,
and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to
physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the
little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard
on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently
about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how
many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing
morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.
Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing
around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that
go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the
young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a
little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when
needed, right along with the young ones.
Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most
citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The
sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one
of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly
transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into
"warriorhood", you want to be there. You want to be able to make a
difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the
warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that
he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98
percent of the population.
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of
violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of
violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast
majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language:
Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their
victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd
that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be
sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs.
But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and
I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become
sheepdogs.
Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was
the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to
alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he
learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons,
Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which
authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the
terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the
passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to
sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an
unknown number of lives on the ground.
There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of
evil men. - Edmund Burke- Here is the point I like to emphasize,
especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to
each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs
are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you
are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be.
It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can
be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay.
When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is
not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be
one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have
rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the
warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every
day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic,
corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
For example, many police officers carry their weapons in church. They are
well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt
holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form
of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in
your congregation is carrying a weapon. You will never know if there is
such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to
massacre you and your loved ones.
I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break,
one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other
cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked
why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who
was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a
mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning
down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved
every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot,
and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die.
That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it
would be to live with yourself after that?"
Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was
carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would
probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would
call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars
were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their
kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic
accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their
only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their
response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly
asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with
yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand
there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once,
at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't
bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking.
Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you
do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear,
helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.
Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less", his superb post-9/11
book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms
with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has
an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get
by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is
all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a
contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying
person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to
confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the
day when evil comes. If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry
a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a
sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on"
24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized
to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep
breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."
This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy.
It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees,
a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the
other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end
or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost
everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The
sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors,
and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to
which you move up that continuum, away from "sheephood" and denial, is the
degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and
psychologically at your moment of truth.
"If It Weren't For The United States Military, There Would Be NO United States of America"
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: palehorse74

"If It Weren't For The United States Military, There Would Be NO United States of America"

That is fine and all but the military is not the united states, they are their own little subculture and not very in touch with the rest of the country, we apreciate the job they do but it really is nothing less then another civil service job, and you all answer to us as we pay your bills just as any government official, you are not better then a civvie nor less, you are a fellow american. Defending our country is your job, but you all are not defending squat over there but bushs imperialism, thus you are barking up the wrong tree looking for everyone to worship you. We all have jobs to do, and you all already get medals for your good work.

The military has royally fubar this whole thing, along with the leadership. And you are not apologetic or even understanding in the least, you are here to gloat and looking to be patted on the back.

This week go ask your top for a handjob, you people are on the sh1tlist nowdays, I am very ashamed of the coverups and that I had part in the service with corrupt egomongers like you thinking you can come in here and toot your horn because you turned out not to be too braindead to sign a few recruitment papers to join the service. Wow, what a winner. Hope you are proud of this mess. Becasue a lot of us are NOT.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
The Geneva Convention works well when both sides chose to honor the guidelines.

However, this has never been the case.

Those the appreciate it are the ones that ignore it for their benefit.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
You know what I find interesting about these discussions? Every time the topic of behavior in wartime comes up, it becomes obvious that a surprising number of people have this belief that what you do in war doesn't really change who you are...war is "special circumstances" that don't apply to real life. Obviously very few people want the US to become a country where torture is an acceptable practice, but plenty of people seem to support the idea of doing it when you really have to, in a war with an enemy that doesn't play fair. And the reason they support it is that they figure once we win, it doesn't matter HOW we won, we'll just go back to normal and we won't have lost any of ourselves as a result.

No offense, but it's all bullshit, and anyone who's thought about it for five seconds would realize it. Our country can't be a freedom loving country with a deep respect for the rights of all men and women except in war any more than you can be a thief only one day per year. War is a terrible thing, all the more so when the enemy doesn't play by any sort of rules at all. But if you say "special circumstances" and abandon YOUR moral beliefs as well, you've just failed the most important test of what you believe, and proved that your beliefs aren't worth a whole hell of a lot.

Ever heard the saying about the "sunshine patriot"? Well I think it very much applies here. If you can't stand up for your moral values when it's difficult, what good are they? Anybody can be all for freedom when it costs them nothing, it's when it becomes difficult to stick by your values that tells you how solid they really are. Yeah, it's difficult to fight "fair" when our enemies don't. But if we REALLY believe in all that noise about what America stands for, we can't decide when we will follow those beliefs, and when we won't.

What we're defending is more than buildings and people, it's ideals and values. And you can't defend ideals by abandoning them when they prove to be inconvenient. Mostly because, despite what you might like to believe, you can't just go back to the way things were. That's not how it works.
Very well said! Kudos.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: sandorski
If you ever wondered what the Decline of Civilization looked like, this is it. It is the steady disassembling of what makes Civilization possible. In each period of History this decline was always for "good reason", but it was followed by centuries of what we call "Dark Ages".

BFT

Question

Why is it when I point this out I am labeled "Chicken Little" or "Infamous Political Troll" but it's OK for others to say the same thing I have been saying??? :confused:

Just plain knee-jerk reaction, heavy on the jerk. Why did you need to ask?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: palehorse74
ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER,
Ph.D., author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so
because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things
that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that
may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as
always, even death itself. The question remains:
What is worth defending?
What is worth dying for?
What is worth living for?

- William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy
November 24, 1997 One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said
this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind,
gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident."

This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and
the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is
that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record
rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which
means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably
less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many
violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of
violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We
may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still
remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who
are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme
provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them
sheep. To me, it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft
and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg
cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and
other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they
protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need
warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out
there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it.
There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The
moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There
is no safety in denial.
"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for
violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a
capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you
have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a
capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do
you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's
path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal
human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves,
and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes
them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world.
They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want
fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout
their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting
an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands
of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence
than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is
denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too
hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the
wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though,
is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep.
Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be
punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in
a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog
disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the
land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them
traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage
fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog
cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the
wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one
lonely sheepdog.
The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high
school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had
the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just
had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however,
and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to
physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the
little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard
on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently
about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how
many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing
morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be.
Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing
around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that
go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the
young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a
little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when
needed, right along with the young ones.
Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most
citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The
sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one
of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly
transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into
"warriorhood", you want to be there. You want to be able to make a
difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the
warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that
he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98
percent of the population.
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of
violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of
violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast
majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language:
Slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their
victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd
that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be
sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs.
But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and
I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become
sheepdogs.
Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was
the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to
alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he
learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons,
Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which
authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the
terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the
passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to
sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an
unknown number of lives on the ground.
There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of
evil men. - Edmund Burke- Here is the point I like to emphasize,
especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to
each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs
are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you
are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be.
It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can
be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay.
When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is
not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be
one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have
rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the
warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every
day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic,
corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
For example, many police officers carry their weapons in church. They are
well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt
holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form
of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in
your congregation is carrying a weapon. You will never know if there is
such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to
massacre you and your loved ones.
I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break,
one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other
cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked
why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who
was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a
mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning
down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved
every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot,
and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die.
That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it
would be to live with yourself after that?"
Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was
carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would
probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would
call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars
were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their
kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic
accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their
only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their
response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly
asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with
yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand
there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once,
at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't
bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking.
Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you
do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear,
helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.
Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less", his superb post-9/11
book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms
with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has
an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get
by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is
all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a
contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying
person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to
confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the
day when evil comes. If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry
a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a
sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on"
24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized
to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep
breath, and say this to yourself..."Baa."
This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy.
It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees,
a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the
other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end
or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost
everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The
sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors,
and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to
which you move up that continuum, away from "sheephood" and denial, is the
degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and
psychologically at your moment of truth.
"If It Weren't For The United States Military, There Would Be NO United States of America"

Must be a text-book soldier who never saw an ewe defend her lamb. There is no bluff, just a snort and an all-out attack!
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ahurtt
If your enemy doesn't have the limitation of being bound by the Geneva Convention in an unconventional whar, why should you?

There you go, the Official resident Republican Montra that the U.S. is an Official Terrorist Country.

Yeah.....I mean hey, the enemy blows up civilians indiscriminantly. Do you advocate just carpet-bombing the entire Mideast because the enemies are scattered throughout the region? Oh wait, we have terrorists in this country too. Time to carpet-bomb the US, right? Do to them what they do to us, right?
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Rainsford
You know what I find interesting about these discussions? Every time the topic of behavior in wartime comes up, it becomes obvious that a surprising number of people have this belief that what you do in war doesn't really change who you are...war is "special circumstances" that don't apply to real life. Obviously very few people want the US to become a country where torture is an acceptable practice, but plenty of people seem to support the idea of doing it when you really have to, in a war with an enemy that doesn't play fair. And the reason they support it is that they figure once we win, it doesn't matter HOW we won, we'll just go back to normal and we won't have lost any of ourselves as a result.

No offense, but it's all bullshit, and anyone who's thought about it for five seconds would realize it. Our country can't be a freedom loving country with a deep respect for the rights of all men and women except in war any more than you can be a thief only one day per year. War is a terrible thing, all the more so when the enemy doesn't play by any sort of rules at all. But if you say "special circumstances" and abandon YOUR moral beliefs as well, you've just failed the most important test of what you believe, and proved that your beliefs aren't worth a whole hell of a lot.

Ever heard the saying about the "sunshine patriot"? Well I think it very much applies here. If you can't stand up for your moral values when it's difficult, what good are they? Anybody can be all for freedom when it costs them nothing, it's when it becomes difficult to stick by your values that tells you how solid they really are. Yeah, it's difficult to fight "fair" when our enemies don't. But if we REALLY believe in all that noise about what America stands for, we can't decide when we will follow those beliefs, and when we won't.

What we're defending is more than buildings and people, it's ideals and values. And you can't defend ideals by abandoning them when they prove to be inconvenient. Mostly because, despite what you might like to believe, you can't just go back to the way things were. That's not how it works.
Very well said! Kudos.

I agree, well put. But there are those of us who realize and accept the fact that things are never going to be back to the way they were in our lifetimes and those of us who cling to the way things used to be. To try and cling to the way things used to be is to deny the fact that there are other people in this world who would like nothing more than to see us all dead. Are they right or wrong? Are we evil or are they? It's irrelevant. We are each evil in the eyes of the other. In the end, the one who is victorious will be the one who is right. Put yourself in the situation of defending your family and all that you know in your way of life from annihilation. Now ask yourself how much you really believe in all the altruistic idealism and if you are willing to sacrifice you and yours for those ideals. Ideals are great in an ideal world. This is NOT an ideal world we live in. Those who would do us harm would use our very own ideals and altruism as weapons against us. Because to them, such high and mighty morals are the beloved patriot in our armor. We cannot allow that to happen. And I, for one, am greatful that there are those in this world willing to do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening. Do I wish it were different? Of course. . .But try this. Wish in one hand and $hit in the other hand and see which one gets filled up first.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Even though our enemy may not obey the precepts of the geneva convention, we still should treat people like human beings. It is not our job to make prisoners comfortable, but there are some minimal conditions that any prisoner has a right to expect from their fellow human beings.

Besides, they may learn something from this. Maybe we cant change all of the muslim extremest, but maybe we can change one person's attitude.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: Rainsford
You know what I find interesting about these discussions? Every time the topic of behavior in wartime comes up, it becomes obvious that a surprising number of people have this belief that what you do in war doesn't really change who you are...war is "special circumstances" that don't apply to real life. Obviously very few people want the US to become a country where torture is an acceptable practice, but plenty of people seem to support the idea of doing it when you really have to, in a war with an enemy that doesn't play fair. And the reason they support it is that they figure once we win, it doesn't matter HOW we won, we'll just go back to normal and we won't have lost any of ourselves as a result.

No offense, but it's all bullshit, and anyone who's thought about it for five seconds would realize it. Our country can't be a freedom loving country with a deep respect for the rights of all men and women except in war any more than you can be a thief only one day per year. War is a terrible thing, all the more so when the enemy doesn't play by any sort of rules at all. But if you say "special circumstances" and abandon YOUR moral beliefs as well, you've just failed the most important test of what you believe, and proved that your beliefs aren't worth a whole hell of a lot.

Ever heard the saying about the "sunshine patriot"? Well I think it very much applies here. If you can't stand up for your moral values when it's difficult, what good are they? Anybody can be all for freedom when it costs them nothing, it's when it becomes difficult to stick by your values that tells you how solid they really are. Yeah, it's difficult to fight "fair" when our enemies don't. But if we REALLY believe in all that noise about what America stands for, we can't decide when we will follow those beliefs, and when we won't.

What we're defending is more than buildings and people, it's ideals and values. And you can't defend ideals by abandoning them when they prove to be inconvenient. Mostly because, despite what you might like to believe, you can't just go back to the way things were. That's not how it works.
Very well said! Kudos.
I agree, well put. But there are those of us who realize and accept the fact that things are never going to be back to the way they were in our lifetimes and those of us who cling to the way things used to be. To try and cling to the way things used to be is to deny the fact that there are other people in this world who would like nothing more than to see us all dead. Are they right or wrong? Are we evil or are they? It's irrelevant. We are each evil in the eyes of the other. In the end, the one who is victorious will be the one who is right. Put yourself in the situation of defending your family and all that you know in your way of life from annihilation. Now ask yourself how much you really believe in all the altruistic idealism and if you are willing to sacrifice you and yours for those ideals. Ideals are great in an ideal world. This is NOT an ideal world we live in. Those who would do us harm would use our very own ideals and altruism as weapons against us. Because to them, such high and mighty morals are the beloved patriot in our armor. We cannot allow that to happen. And I, for one, am greatful that there are those in this world willing to do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening. Do I wish it were different? Of course. . .But try this. Wish in one hand and $hit in the other hand and see which one gets filled up first.
Sorry, but that's complete nonsense. Fighting an enemy effectively and treating prisoners humanely are two totally separate issues. One has nothing to do with the other.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
Originally posted by: ahurtt
If your enemy doesn't have the limitation of being bound by the Geneva Convention in an unconventional war, why should you?

Because we will be no better than they.

I do not want our government or people to be reverting to the same standards as our enemys who have almost no regard for human dignity or life.

The presence and actions of our US soldiers abroad are not only a representation of America and it's values (FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, LIBERTY, JUSTICE, and EQUALITY), they also represent YOU AND ME the American people.