Has the time come to buy a good LCD monitor?

[Winterpool]

I've been using the same 19-inch Trinitron CRT and 19-inch LCD (PVA-panel -- see 'Annuminas' in signature) for a few years now. I've rarely seen an LCD I found satisfactory, save maybe the Apple Cinema Displays (I've never actually worked with any other IPS-panel displays).

Waited and waited for IPS-panel displays to drop in price, but instead they mostly dried up, migrating to larger sizes, where manufacturers could retain some pricing power. Even Apple seems to have given up on 20-inch displays. The optimal monitor (for my purposes at least) seems the NEC LCD2490WUXi, but it still costs over a thousand dollars. I'm not sure I can justify such an expenditure, especially when the Dell 2408WFP can cost less than half the price.

Of course, Dell has recently introduced the UltraSharp 2209WA, with its potentially game-changing e-IPS panel. It's no H-IPS, but it seems awfully capable for the price.

Essentially I've three options / price levels, each about double the price below it:

• $225 to 300+ ... e-IPS panels: currently the 2209WA, but supposedly 23-inch 1080 displays are coming.
  
  $500 to 600 ... 24-inch S-PVA (Dell 2408WFP) or H-IPS (HP LP2475w), 1920x1200.
  
  $900 to 1100 ... premium 24-inch H-IPS, Apple or NEC.

I don't game often, and I'm not a professional graphics designer or video producer. I am a bit of a cinephile and can get neurotic about colours, aliasing, artefacts, etc. Though my Trinitron is a bit wonky (if you look closely, the image wavers), it's still preferable for watching video to my LCD, which is why I keep it around. I don't own an HDTV.

Concerns:

• 2209WA: 1680x1050 res; somewhat inferior colour to H-IPS; Dell QA
  forthcoming 23-inch e-IPS: probably 1080 vertical, not 1200; presumably similar to 2209WA
  2408WFP: default colour accuracy, wide gamut; alarmingly high input lag, even for PVA
  LP2475w: qualty control, uniformity; wide gamut; ugly design
  premium H-IPS: price!

Strictly speaking, I can afford the NEC LCD2490WUXi, but we seem to have fallen into a Depression, and I'm trying to use every spare dollar I have to buy undervalued assets (equities, but eventually a home). So there's a part of me that thinks, now is not the time to blow a grand on a monitor. The other part of me retorts that it may be years before markets recover, in which case buying something you'll enjoy (and use every day) is a superior 'investment'. Nevertheless, is the LCD2490WUXi worth 2x a 2408WFP or LP2475w?

Perhaps the worsening economy might compel even the premium IPS displays to drop in price. And perhaps e-IPS is 'good enough'. At $225, I'm tempted to simply pick up a 2209WA for now, but I'd gladly pay $300+ for a comparable 23-inch e-IPS that will display 1920x1080 (or 1200). Supposedly these will arrive in the spring or summer.

 

[LokutusofBorg]

I'm a bit of a cinephile also, and just plunked down the cash for 2x 2408WFP. Like you, I worried about spending money on something like this with all that's going on (the economy, trying to save for a house), but I feel it is a good investment and will be something I get a lot of good use out of for the next 7 years or more.

I went with the 2408 because the 16x10 resolution of the 2209WA is a bit underwhelming. The eIPS was *really* tempting though. I probably would have backed away from the $1000+ price tag of dual 2408's if I had been able to use my DPA to buy a couple 2209's. But they're only sold through the Dell Small Business site, and you can't use your DPA on that site, only a small business account, which I don't have.

I also looked hard at the LP2475W but it was just too over the top in price for me. People say the 2408 has a stunning picture, and the new revision of the monitor cut the input lag in half (down in the 20ms range, I believe). With it sitting at $499 right now, it was the clear winner for me.

 

[Painman]

If it were me I'd probably wait and see what happens with the 23" e-IPS just for 1080's sake. 2490WUXi will give you H-IPS/A-TW polarizer, plus it's fully loaded on the backend with a fantastic scaler, excellent overdrive, internal calibration, all of that good stuff. But as you've noticed, it will cost you.

OTOH, it may last you a good long time. Be aware that it doesn't support 1080i, only p.

 

[mmnno]

Dell's 2709W is on sale for $630. Too many reported problems with the LP2475w, and no gaming the revisions on the 2408WFP (though the 2709W probably lags more than the A01 revision.)

Ignore the 2490WUXi. If you are a cinephile, it's not that important.

If you can wait though, waiting will always get you a better product

 

[rarebear]

I just got my Dell 2209WA Thursday and you can come up all the reasons to buy or not buy..

All I can say is I am happy I did buy........

How may deals on a NEWLY Released Monitor do you see almost 1/3 off sales price???

Show me one just released monitor that sells for 1/3 off because you asked......

If the $100 off is not a good reason to buy a very good monitor just spend the $1,000 and get the best......

IMHO
$220 vs $1,000
I dont think its worth $780 more......
IMHO
I'd just buy a new 52" Plasma and the 2209WA

 

[Winterpool]

I feel, like Hamlet, I may have agonised too long when I should have acted. The 25 per cent coupon no longer works on the Dell 2209WA, and there is evidence on the Hard|Forum thread that the 2209WA (or at least its discount pricing) may be an exceptional case. February discounts may have been owing to some business bundle that fell through. Perhaps even worse, punters have referenced a Chinese review that suggests the e-IPS panels come from excess LG supply. If, as pixel analysis has suggested, e-IPS is simply no-frills H-IPS, this would make a lot of sense. The 2209WA may not be a long-lived display; perhaps worse, it may be replaced by PVA (or Heaven forbid -- TN) panels per usual Dell procedure.

On the other hand, when have there been 22-inch IPS displays that could have yielded this oversupply? Also, DisplayBlog seems to have reported seeing 23-inch e-IPS panels at CES, and that e-IPS was part of a push by LG to compete through 'budget quality'. I hope 23-inch 1080 (or ideally 1920x1200) e-IPS displays are coming soon in the $300-400 price range.

The option to get a cheap e-IPS display and an HDTV might make a great deal of sense.

 

[Phew]

The LCD market needs more cheap non-TN panels with low input lag. The panel in my Planar (NEC and Doublesight sell this panel in some form also) is the right combination of good image quality and low input lag, but all the other options had horrendous input lag (>30ms). My monitor was like $800 though (althought I paid closer to $600 after cashback).

This Dell really fills an important niche. No one should have to pay over $500 to avoid the massive flaws of TN panels. Hopefully other manufacturers will follow suit.

Oh, LokutusofBorg, anyone can buy from Dell Small Business. You have to type something in under business name during checkout, but it doesn't matter what you put. I type my name.

 

[LokutusofBorg]

Originally posted by: Phew
...
Oh, LokutusofBorg, anyone can buy from Dell Small Business. You have to type something in under business name during checkout, but it doesn't matter what you put. I type my name.

No, I know you can buy from that site, it just wouldn't let me use my Dell Preferred Account to pay for it. The only options I had were credit card, or signing up for a business account. The text on the page (or a FAQ it linked to) specifically said you cannot use your DPA on the Small Business site.

 

[rarebear]

CALL ON THE PHONE.....

A few people have left extension #s for agents that will give you the $210-$220 deal.......

Have you called and they said they will not allow you to use your account??


Maybe you should login to Amazon.com and try and get the deal from them that way instead of following the method that others have used........

That way you have even less of a chance buying the monitor @ $210 .........

 

[WaitingForNehalem]

Instead of spending so much on LCD monitors, get an LCD tv. They're way ahead of current high-end monitors. Newer LCD's are 10-bit vs a typical IPS/VA monitor's 8 bit. They have a response time of 2-4ms and display video and games great since that is what they are designed to do. A 1080p 32 inch might not be too bad.

 

[Winterpool]

I've never used an HDTV as a computer monitor and have always wondered if it's true that telly panels are superior to those for computers. However, the size and resolution (and therefore dot pitch) are problematic: even a 32-inch TV, if you sit up against it, is going to have considerably lower 'density' than a 30-inch display (2560x1600). I don't even want a 30-inch display, quite frankly: too big on the desk, perhaps too big for one's eyes to scan (for some reason I've fewer issues with two displays -- perhaps because one is primary). I think the respective pitches are .27mm (24-inch display), .28mm (22-inch 1680x1050), and .36mm (32-inch 1920x1080).

Making matters more difficult, it does appear punters are still able to order the 2209WA discounted on the 'phone. Meanwhile the 2408WFP has dropped to $450 after coupon! I think if it were the HP LP2475w at $450, my decision would be clear...

 

[NoSoup4You]

I've purchased three monitors from Dell. My two current ones - 2007FP and 2001FP - and my work monitor - a 2407WFP. In all three cases, I called on the phone and asked them to take 25% off the online price. For the 2007FP, I had to ask three times before they agreed to drop the price, in case you're wondering. The others were much easier.

Just call up, ask nicely, and be persistent and hold firm. Although I can't be sure, I'm convinced EVERYTHING sold on Dell.com can be had for 25% off if you call.

 

[konakona]

Just curious, what do you not like about your Trinitron? Is it the size? aspect ratio? I doubt a shift to a 22'' would be a huge upgrade in that regard, unless I am missing something in your post.

While I am not too big on movies, I watch a whole lot of video files myself (anime, a good 2+ hours on most days) and play games with many detailed static images, so I understand your concerns about color, black level, etc.
The monitor I am using now is a NEC FE2111SB, which I was lucky enough to find in VERY good shape for like $60. For some odd luck, my soyo Topaz (24'' P-MVA) crapped out shortly after I got this diamondtron beast. At first I was worried about the non-HD resolution and the reduction in size. After a while I have come to appreciate the softer picture this monitor produces, and don't miss that LCD one bit. Judging by what everyone says, H-IPS come very close to mimicing this. But other than the size difference, what else are you expecting?

 

[Winterpool]

The Trinitron (Sony Multiscan G400 -- see 'Annuminas' in signature) was purchased round 2000-2001. A few years ago, the image started to waver: it's noticeable when you're looking closely at it -- for example when reading text. The warranty had expired about a year before, so I had no choice but to start looking at LCDs. Which none of them seemed tolerable to my eyes. Well, perhaps the Apple Cinema Displays (I had no idea what IPS meant back then), but they were utterly out of price range. I finally settled on the Dell 1905FP, which had good reviews and a Samsung PVA panel. It proved adequate, especially for reading, but extremely deficient in video compared to the Trinitron, which is why I've kept it around.

Even if I ignore the somewhat dodgy picture stability of the Trinitron, it's very old and could, I suspect, fail altogether at any time. It's a 19-inch and has, by 21st-century standards, a mediocre resolution. Theoretically .24mm pitch and capable of 1800x1440 res, but realistically, one wouldn't want to run it above 1280x1024 (CRT, so only 18 inches viewing area). Unfortunately by the time I began shopping Trinitrons were out of production, and the few NEC 'Diamondtrons' left were unaffordable. Age and longevity are the reasons I probably wouldn't buy another CRT, even if I could find one in good shape on eBay, Craigslist, etc.

I don't know if my flimsy desk could support a 22-inch CRT [laughs]. It must be awfully nice to have a 22-inch Diamondtron...

Intend to speak to my (ex-)girlfriend tonight (it's complicated, heh), and will then probably decide between the $450 2408WFP and the $215ish (I hope) 2209WA. Has anyone ever seen the HP LP2475w for much less than $600?

 

[LokutusofBorg]

Originally posted by: Winterpool
...
Intend to speak to my (ex-)girlfriend tonight (it's complicated, heh), and will then probably decide between the $450 2408WFP and the $215ish (I hope) 2209WA. Has anyone ever seen the HP LP2475w for much less than $600?

I watched that HP for a while and never saw any good sales, but I may not have known where to watch.

I bought a couple 2408WFPs and they showed up yesterday. I had some buyer's remorse after hearing the 2209WAs are still going for 212 (despite rarebear's snarky tone he hit my nail on the head, I should have called). I had one hell of a time last night and this morning trying to get these monitors set up to my liking. They're *very* bright, and to crank the contrast down to where they're not burning my eyes out of my head makes everything all washed out. They have an amazing picture, though. And not a single dead/stuck pixel on either of them.

I called Dell today to feel them out for a return since they're so damn bright (I work from home so I stare at my monitor for 12+ hours a day [work, then leisure] and the brightness issue is a very serious concern for me). But they said they'd have to charge me the 15% restock (~$150) and I'd pay shipping (~$50 + insurance). He did offer me a $50 credit as a gesture of goodwill since I said I wasn't satisfied with my purchase.

So here's my take on it. If I could go back a few days, I'd buy the 2209WAs for 212 and buy a nice hardware calibrator as well, since I've read the 2209's are a pain to calibrate (would be nice to have for when I get around to buying an HDTV, too...). Now that I have my 24 inchers I'm going to enjoy this extra desktop space immensely (they're HUGE), and with the $50 credit they gave me, and the possibility of getting an additional credit since the price has dropped again, I may buy the hardware calibrator anyway. And hopefully I'll end up with the awesome picture that landed the 2408WFP so many editors choice awards.

 

[aaronchi]

Ugh,

I would definitely advise against the Dell 2408wfp. I just bought one recently because a friend had the 2407wfp (non wide gamut version) and I liked it.

Don't get me wrong, this is a nice monitor, but it's probably more well suited for use as an HDTV than as a monitor. It is incredibly bright and the colors are garish. After spending hours pouring over the literature, I decided that there is no way I'm going to keep this. Even with professional calibration software the prospect of getting this thing balanced is dodgy. Many professionals who bought this monitor have it running at a brightness of 1/100. I turned it down to 0 and it still hurts my eyes.

I am also now debating investing in an NEC but seeing the new e-ips makes me want to wait. Considering it's more environmentally friendly as well (uses less energy) I think I can deal with my old 17" for a bit longer until something better comes out. If I get tired of waiting, I can always plunk down the grand.

 

[aaronchi]

Oh.. and Dell offered me $75 to keep it...

 

[jhigley]

Winterpool: If it makes you feel any better, this morning I ordered a 2209WA to replace the Sony F500 behemoth sitting on my desk now. The Trinitron is on its last legs: It takes a good five minutes to display a readable picture coming from a cold state, there is a weird "zoom" (not sure how to better describe it) effect when a significant part of the displayed image changes, and the 85hz it supposedly is refreshing at is more like an effective 60hz. Not to mention the thing weighs 75lbs.

Although nothing will replace the warm amber monitor tan I receive from spending far too many hours in front of that beast...

 

[levander]

Apparently, I'm more confused and even unrealistic than Winterpool. Because of a weird situation here, I've really got to get a new monitor in the next couple of months. Last few days I've been hoping a 27" eIPS comes out from Dell. But, with you guys who follow this way more than I only talking about a 23"...

I've been noticing that I'm bored and too tired to do anything at night too much recently, so I need to buy a video card and get back into gaming a little. And, I already do some amateur photography stuff. So, I don't want the 2709w, too much lag.

I know about the Planar 27", but everything I've got here on my desk is Dell. And, everything I've got at work is Dell. Just like having one phone number in case there are any support issues. But, maybe I'm too hung up on the name brands? Maybe that's something I need to get over...

Another thing that bugs me about the Planar is no HDMI/DisplayPort. But, all the talking you guys do about monitors, that stuff doesn't seem to bug you guys. I don't think I've seen anyone complain that a monitor only has a DVI port on it. Not worried that someday you're gonna wanna watch Blu-Ray movies on your monitor?

Originally posted by: Phew
...
My monitor was like $800 though (althought I paid closer to $600 after cashback).

Where do you get 25% cash back off of Dell stuff??

Originally posted by: LokutusofBorg
...
I called Dell today to feel them out for a return since they're so damn bright (I work from home so I stare at my monitor for 12+ hours a day [work, then leisure] and the brightness issue is a very serious concern for me). But they said they'd have to charge me the 15% restock (~$150) and I'd pay shipping (~$50 + insurance). He did offer me a $50 credit as a gesture of goodwill since I said I wasn't satisfied with my purchase.

I been buying from Dell for years and never noticed till now they charge a restocking fee on returns. I had to go check the web site. This does a lot in my eyes to damage the brand name. Especially stuff like monitors that are so subjective. A lot of times there's just no way to be sure unless you actually sit down and use one for half an hour.

 

[LokutusofBorg]

Originally posted by: aaronchi
Oh.. and Dell offered me $75 to keep it...

Damn, I bought two of these things, and they only offered me $50 to keep them...

Don't get me wrong, this is a nice monitor, but it's probably more well suited for use as an HDTV than as a monitor. It is incredibly bright and the colors are garish. After spending hours pouring over the literature, I decided that there is no way I'm going to keep this. Even with professional calibration software the prospect of getting this thing balanced is dodgy. Many professionals who bought this monitor have it running at a brightness of 1/100. I turned it down to 0 and it still hurts my eyes.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to get mine set up, and I'm still not completely happy with them, but they're in a better state than you're describing, I think.

Here are some newbie (newb = me, not you...) calibration tips:

This article provided a breakthrough for me -- "the next calibration step involves setting the black (brightness) and white (contrast) levels to their optimum values." I was trying to use brightness to set the white point, and I just couldn't get the monitors dark enough. Once I realized I was doing it backwards, I got the white point down to a very comfortable level. Here's how...

This page is perfect for setting brightness and contrast. Starting with brightness at 0 and contrast at 100, first, I walked my brightness up till I saw the three shades of black in the circles on the left. Then I walked my contrast down till I saw all three shades of white in the circles on the right. I then put up a program with a mostly white background (Windows Explorer or something) and continued to walk my contrast down till it was acceptable. If I took the monitor contrast down too far it got too grey/washed out for my taste, so I used the contrast in the nVidia Control Panel as well. I ended up at brightness: 20, contrast: 35 on the monitor and 40% contrast in the nvCP (it's at 50% by default, so it wasn't a huge swing).

I then used this page to set my sharpness (ended up at 40).

And then this page to set my gamma (in my video card drivers, ended up at 41%). Lowering the gamma helped with the brightness quite a bit too, so don't lower your contrast *too* much before mucking with your gamma.

I've had an Excel spreadsheet (pretty much all white) maximized on one monitor for the past few hours, working on some stuff, and it does not bother me. Colors are rich, fonts are crisp, and I'm feeling pretty good about these monitors at this point. I'm thinking of buying a hardware calibrator still, though. Would love to get these puppies dialed in perfectly.

Hope that helps, and that it isn't too much of a thread derail.

 

[LokutusofBorg]

Originally posted by: levander

Originally posted by: LokutusofBorg
...
I called Dell today to feel them out for a return since they're so damn bright (I work from home so I stare at my monitor for 12+ hours a day [work, then leisure] and the brightness issue is a very serious concern for me). But they said they'd have to charge me the 15% restock (~$150) and I'd pay shipping (~$50 + insurance). He did offer me a $50 credit as a gesture of goodwill since I said I wasn't satisfied with my purchase.

I been buying from Dell for years and never noticed till now they charge a restocking fee on returns. I had to go check the web site. This does a lot in my eyes to damage the brand name. Especially stuff like monitors that are so subjective. A lot of times there's just no way to be sure unless you actually sit down and use one for half an hour.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure they don't charge you restock if there's anything actually *wrong* with the monitor. I don't think "too bright for my taste" qualifies, so he said I'd have to pay the restock. I didn't feel comfortable making something up about them actually being defective since they're technically not.

 

[Winterpool]

I wasn't able to speak to my ex-girlfriend on Wednesday, and so I didn't have a chance to order before the Dell 2408WFP coupon expired. But from what some of you have suggested, perhaps that was a blessing in disguise. The reviews do note that the wide gamut of the 2408WFP makes calibration a necessity, but I wouldn't have expected it to be well nigh unusable out of the box. Brightness and oversaturation are concerns, since I spend much of my time online essentially in the dark (for some reason, it just seems wrong to be on a computer at 3 am with the lights on). However I've heard that IPS panels tend to be rather bright as well.

Jhigley's post reminded me that at 85 Hz, my Trinitron makes quite a buzz, too distinct to ignore. Whilst 75 Hz never seemed quite smooth enough for my eyes (perhaps the refresh rate is actually lower than indicated!).

Levander, I'm not sure it's realistic to expect a 27-inch e-IPS soon (or ever?). Have you read any suggestions such a size would be forthcoming? The only panel I assumed was confirmed was the 23-inch apparently seen at CES, and Dell reps have supposedly intimated a 23-inch display would be available in the spring. If this was a sure thing (and would cost < $400), I think I'd wait for the larger, higher-resolution e-IPS. But I have doubts...

Also, if you have the right kit (video card, display), then you should be able to play a 1080p HDCP-encrypted video (eg Blu-ray) through DVI. And I believe an HDMI-DVI adapter will work in such circumstances as well.

Markets have been falling most of the week, which has probably put paid to the rationality of spending $1000+ for an H-IPS display. (With the new iMacs released, older 24-inch models can be found for $1200-1400... 24-inch IPS panels and 2.8 GHz Core 2 Duos, heh.) I think the only thing keeping me from ordering the 2209WA now is the resolution -- and the prospect of at least 1080 e-IPS becoming available very soon.

 

[LokutusofBorg]

Originally posted by: Winterpool
I wasn't able to speak to my ex-girlfriend on Wednesday, and so I didn't have a chance to order before the Dell 2408WFP coupon expired. But from what some of you have suggested, perhaps that was a blessing in disguise. The reviews do note that the wide gamut of the 2408WFP makes calibration a necessity, but I wouldn't have expected it to be well nigh unusable out of the box. Brightness and oversaturation are concerns, since I spend much of my time online essentially in the dark (for some reason, it just seems wrong to be on a computer at 3 am with the lights on). However I've heard that IPS panels tend to be rather bright as well.

Depends on what you're doing... out of the box watching a movie on my 2408WFP the picture was pretty stunning. Looking at pictures, very nice... Trying to read text on a white web page, not so good.

 

[Winterpool]

With the latest Dell coupon (20 per cent) and the drop in the 'retail' price of the 2209WA to $279, I decided this was a reminder to give the display a chance. With the equities markets recovering this week, I promised myself if my portfolio held its gains today, I'd order the monitor. After the markets closed up (barely), I logged on to the Dell chat and got a price quote of $212. Unfortunately, it seems punters are now experiencing a delay of a couple of weeks in receiving their monitors. I hope Dell doesn't replace the e-IPS panels with PVA (or TN!).

Unfortunately, Dell raised the 'retail' price of the 2408WFP to $620, so the 20 per cent coupon does little good there.

If the market rally continues (into a true 'bear rally' of 20 per cent or more), I suppose I'll get a good 1920x1200 display eventually (the exact model depending on how much profit my trades can earn ).

 

[aaronchi]

Cool.

I ended up doing the same and ordered the 2209WA shortly after processing my return for the 2408WFP. Originally scheduled to be delivered on the 19th and then pushed back to the 24th. Hope nothing cooler comes out before this gets here!