• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Has the quality of public schools gone down in the past ~50 years?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Originally posted by: waggy
My wife worked as a teacher for a few years.

From what i can get out of her there are many problems with the education system.

1) parents that just do not care anymore. Both parents work 40+ hours a week, belong to clubs and such. So they have very little time for little johnny. So little johnny acts out in school and does not do his homework and the teacher gets the blame.
Not a good excuse, though. My parents both worked over 40hrs a week while I grew up (my dad still does), and they had time.
2) class size. Some teachers have 30-60+ children in the class. Now times that by 7 classes. That does not leave a LOT of time for one on one that many children need.
Again, not really. I went to a parochial school for k-6, and class sizes were about the same as when I went into public school. The structure, however, was very different. In the private schools, teachers were responsible. In public school, they were liable. Oh, and funny thing...the two Catholic schools around got several kids who's parents were public school teachers. Go figure, huh 🙂
3) Funding. this kind of deals with #2. People are tired of paying a LOT for schools. Heck around here about 2 years ago people voted on a tax increase to give the local high school 4 Million to add on. well Last year they asked for another $55 Million to build a new high school. So not only would they have to pay off the loan for the add on but the new school. Needless to say it was shot down. But its not just the building. Have you looked at the books the school is using? some have many mistakes is disgusting.
And they waste a lot. I don't want to think of my high school's wastes on technology alone (that's all I am familiar enough with to have noticed immediately().
4) The teachers Union. Man what a fricken group. The union does not care how the child is taught. IT just wants its money. I don't even think they care about the teachers. I'm sure others can fill in about it. I don't feel like linking and looking up the BS.
Agreed. Tenure = evil
5) standardized testing. My wife was complaining about how these useless test were being forced on them. Well since the school is funded on how well they do they have to TEACH on how to take the test. She spent a good deal of time on the test. AT the expense of actually learning something useful.
Agreed here, too. Sure, there are lots of standardized tests, but if they teach the material they need to teach well, then the difference on standardized tests should be minimal. If they teach the tests, the kids are screwed. It's basically taking the modern retail chain's warranty policies and putting them in schools (you don't get commission, but your job relies on forcing useless crap).
6) In many areas teachers are not allowed to chose what/how they are to teach. They have to fallow a set of rules the school has. Many schools are testing a bunch of crap to see if it works. WELL it does not. Go back to the three R's.
...Agreed. Of what I consider my best public school teachers, neither liked the books, and my fav math teacher used aa book that was held together with tape. Often, she had to fumble with pages falling out of it. I wish some of my college texts were what they used in high school. Fewer erros, much more to the point, etc..
7) NOW you have to not only to try to teach little johnny but you have to build his self-esteem. So even though he can't spell or add you have to make him feel as smart as the nerd next to him.
Luckily I didn't start in public school until after elementary. I'd have gotten SO many teachers pissed off with that.
sigh i think thats enough. I wont go into the BS about teachers only working 180 days a year. Many people do not know they still have to go and take classes and such every year. or how long the workday really is.
Not only that, but many teachers DO work all year. Summer school and prisons, people!
My wife just could not deal with the BS. Not just from the students and there parents but from the school board as well. How it is today really scares me. I wonder how it is going to be when my 2 year old gets to school? Heck the school my sister-in-law goes to canceled the advanced classes. There was to many people in the slow class and people were complaining about having the extra class just for a few students. So now they are all in one class. yeah great idea.
Choose a good school and help them at home. Oh, and when they can reach the remote, get some shows to watch. I decided to see what was on PBS a couple weeks ago for the hell of it. Reruns Mr. Rogers, Sesame Street, and Cookin' Cajun was about all that was decent. Let's face it, Ms. Piggy was funny as a little kid, and still is funny 🙂.
 
About the tenure bit.. it's an unfortunate necessity, just like civil service unions...
The people controlling the jobs are in political positions... if not for the unions, it would be "spoils to the victor" far too often. How would you like it if your boss fired you tomorrow because his niece just graduated from college and she wants your job? I'll agree that the methods for removing a teacher need to be streamlined somehow.

Also, private schools aren't necessarily better. I started teaching in a private Catholic school. I had kids in their 3rd year of high school math... they had amazingly passed with 90-something averages every year, but hadn't passed their state final exams (NY Regents exams). In the school I teach at now, there is a strong correlation between their class grades and their final exam grade.. students typically score within a few points (at least in the math courses where I'm familiar with their grades.)

While I can point out some faults to our "standardized exams", on the whole, they're pretty good. Simply ask yourself, "what questions should a student be able to pass after taking an Algebra class for a year?" - Write a curriculum based on that, and expect all of the teachers in NY to teach a minimum of that curriculum. Those students I had in the Catholic school.... they were 2 years behind on their knowledge. I had to teach 3 years worth of math to some of them in just one year. It was tough!

180 days a year... yeah right :roll: I'm thrilled that I don't teach 11th grade English... those teachers at my school spend their entire Easter break reading and correcting papers. Granted, there are some teachers out there who only offer multiple choice tests (and the same tests every year) and just run the answer sheet through a scantron or something. Fortunately, I don't work with any of those teachers. Next time I give a pre-calculus test, one of you "they only work 180 days a year" people can come over to my house on Sunday and spend about 6 hours correcting them for me.... That'll be about once every other week... for pre-calculus. Or, you can do calculus, or physics tests, or Math A (NY's equivalent to algebra and geometry) or quizzes, or correct labs, or write labs (I revise existing labs or devise my own labs.. I refuse to use "betty crocker" labs) or write the tests... I'll let you hand write them since I'm also too "lazy" to type math problems most of the time, or you can write the detailed lesson plans.. sometimes 2 or 3 pages for each class, or you can do the homework problems ahead of time, since math books notoriously have problems that don't quite work out, or else have the wrong answers in the back... And, when you're done, let's not forget calling Johnie's and Suzie's mom about the missing homework assignments, and keep track of the kids who owe you assignments while they were sick, and all the associated record keeping: attendance, grades, etc. Then, 4 times a year, it's progress report time! Elem teachers have it easy... they don't have as many students, but they have to prepare for parent teacher conferences.. but, the high school teachers have 100+ students. Tie on the requirements for (I don't know the exact number... I'm always way over) 50 hours or so of continued education stuff each year. (be it via reading, conferences, or whatever) Oh No! I'm looking ahead and have to change my pre-calculus curriculum this year to a pre-calc/calculus course... that'll only take me about.. oh, 50 hours.... Let's see, what'd I leave out... gotta go down to the office to turn in the referral form (in triplicate) for Alice and Amanda who were disruptive in class.. they had a fight over one of them flirting with the other's boyfriend... gotta call their parents to let them know they'll be in detention.. What? volunteer to chaperone the dance? (woohoo! they pay us $20 at our school) But, I volunteer to run a chess club after school.. that's 80 extra hours a year.. Do I really need to go on?

Anyway... IMHO, and an opinion formed by being on the "front lines", the biggest problem in education is the lack of 2 parents in a house who are concerned for their children's future - who see the value of education and insist their students go to school - who will punish their kids if they hear the kids were disruptive in school. As NHS advisor, I get to send out all the congratulations letters to the parents to let them know when the ceremony is, etc. I've noticed in the past 2 years that almost ALL (2 exceptions) of the NHS inductees had 2 parents --- WITH THE SAME LAST NAME!!! Looking at the rest of the population within our district, that's an amazing statistic.



 
I'm a student teacher now and although I want to teach, for my own reasons, I can't see myself dealing with the social problems the kids will bring into the classroom. If you want me to teach my subject, I sure can do that. The ESEA aka No Child Left Behind required every teacher to be credentialed. In California, it means everyone teacher has to have a bachelors and have a teaching credential also. This means 4 years for a bachelors, plus 1-2 years for a credential.

I have my BS in Biology from UC Davis, have worked as a computer programmer for 5 years, but there's no way I can see myself managing 150 kids. You're not going to grade 150 tests during your one hour break. You somehow have to remember 150 new faces and names every year, be able to assess their LEARNING STYLE, LEARNING PACE, and any other problems or difficulties they have.

I hope to learn all of this in my credential program, but even if I cared, I can't teach or reach them if they don't care or their parents never cared about them or education in the first place.
 
50 years ago? 50 years ago we gave girls bs classes on how to become good wives. it wasn't until russia scared us that we started taking science seriously.

and hell still to this day we have nutbags like creationists trying to push their "creation science" back into schools😛
 
Well 50 years ago, what people expected students to learn was a lot less, so there was more time to teach that relatively narrow focus. Now, students are expected to learn more and about more subjects. So in general I don't think public schools/education has gone down. The exception would be for minority students. There is an achievement gap in just about any district/state you look at and NO ONE really had a good handle on it.

Teaching pays well, typically has GREAT benes, and states have recently been inclined to toughen their licensing requirements. I don't think teaching has gone down, though there are plenty of teachers riding it out just like any other profession.
 
Originally posted by: Ornery
Originally posted by: badmouse
I was in school 50 years ago too, are you really that clueless? 50 years ago...

I know I'm wasting my breath...
...and our time! jadinolf said, "...maybe we could have more dedicated (or smarter) teachers." THAT'S IT! And, he's right! Goddamn union protects the POS morons there today. Takes a flippin' act of Congress to get rid of one. You can't reward the good ones with bonuses or higher pay than their worthless coworkers. jadinolf offered a very viable possible reason for our current dilemma. What's yours? :|

Wrong, we just raised self entitled Morons and the Parents today are to fscking self absorbed to actively participate in our kids education. Instead of laying down the law we blame the teachers and buy our little bastards cars and sh!t when they turn 16.
 
was in school 50 years ago too, are you really that clueless?

I, too, was in school 50 years ago and did not, in general, find the conditions you detail. My experiences:

50 years ago black (we didn't call them that, we used a word I can't type here now without getting banned) students weren't welcome at my school, certainly - they went to their own school out of town, definately not a good one either.
People I knew didn't use that word although our schools were separate. I have no actual knowledge that the quality of education was different where I lived, but I have no problem believing that it was.

Girls and boys had separate educational systems - girls didn't get to take a lot of things that boys did. Also, most students took "general" classes, "college prep" was reserved for the elite few. Girls didn't take math & science, they weren't considered to be smart enough.
Not true-not true. Not true, not true. Not true, not true. I took all the same things the boys did. I took no homemaking and did take three years of mechanical drawing. I took all the math and science the boys did and so did all my girl friends.

Didn't have experience with children not proficient in English or Asians.

Capital punishment was the norm. You got the stuffing walloped out of you on a regular basis, including for things such as being handicapped. None of this new-fangled special treatment - if a kid wasn't smart enough to learn, why, smacking around on a regular basis would knock the sense into them.
Not true. Not true. I attended 5 public schools through high school and the only one that had corporal punishment in the classroom was the Catholic school where we got rapped across the knuckles for academic errors.

Rape was considered "normal guy behavior". Handicapped girls were especially considered to be open season. Guys who were a little you-kno-what were also considered to be non-human, therefore they got raped a lot too - just to show them who was boss. DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE? Not to me either, but a lot of things about schools and people and fairness and crap like that didn't make sense either.
Wow! I'm glad I didn't go to school wherever you went. Not true. Not true. Not true.

Teacher pay was a joke. Women were paid way less then men, it was written into the contracts. Men had a family to support, after all. A teaching job was not considered to be a fulltime job, and it didn't pay enough to support a family (unless you were male).
True. I don't know, but it sounds right.

The idea that parents should be involved in schooling would have been laughable in the 50's & 60's - schooling was the teacher's job. The only reason my parents ever stepped foot into the school building was that my mother was a teacher - my father was head of the school board, and he never went near the place they met at city hall, not the school.
Not true. My parents and the parents of all my friends were always involved in our schooling. They attended conferences, open houses, provided chaperones for field trips, baked goodies, volunteered in the schools, helped with fund-raising and more.


I know I'm wasting my breath and you just want to think that things were so much better in the "olden" days. They weren't.
I don't know if things were better. They were different. I think that students in public schools today get more opportunities to learn more advanced things than we did, but, from what I see here at ATOT, so many seem to be learning LESS of the basic things they need in the real world. English, basic history, geography, etc.
 
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Ornery
Originally posted by: badmouse
I was in school 50 years ago too, are you really that clueless? 50 years ago...

I know I'm wasting my breath...
...and our time! jadinolf said, "...maybe we could have more dedicated (or smarter) teachers." THAT'S IT! And, he's right! Goddamn union protects the POS morons there today. Takes a flippin' act of Congress to get rid of one. You can't reward the good ones with bonuses or higher pay than their worthless coworkers. jadinolf offered a very viable possible reason for our current dilemma. What's yours? :|

Wrong, we just raised self entitled Morons and the Parents today are to fscking self absorbed to actively participate in our kids education. Instead of laying down the law we blame the teachers and buy our little bastards cars and sh!t when they turn 16.

exactly, parents today are out of touch with the educational system. then they blame the teachers and the public school system.

when you come home and your kids are busy on their playstation, pc, xbox; and grooving to songs like "Let's Get Retarded" or "Move Bitch" instead of algebra I, II, or III....you should already know they ain't gonna pass!!
 
Back
Top