Has Israel lost?

[bizmark]

<< Most of the frustration "felt" by those that look at the Middle East is the denial of the position of Israel given by God.
It seems to many that there is no solution to the "problem".
The "problem" is that you seek to remove what God has put in position.
My friends, you can discuss this at length but the decision has already been made.
Jerusalem has been made the Capital of the Earth. It is Israel that has been given the land. >>



By injecting religion into this debate you remove any and all credibility that you might have had. "God gave Israel to the Jews" is not an effective argument. It's your right to believe that, but you can't expect for anyone else to believe it too.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< All it does is make you sound the the irrational Muslim fanatics who strap bombs their on kids. >>

In Palco's case the similarity isn't a mistake.

 

[MrPALCO]

Religious rantings are NOT going to help Israel's cause. All it does is make you sound the the irrational Muslim fanatics who strap bombs their on kids.




Let Time judge the Words that I speak as True or false.

Soon you will have the evidence that your eye demands.

 

[Amused]

<< Religious rantings are NOT going to help Israel's cause. All it does is make you sound the the irrational Muslim fanatics who strap bombs their on kids.




Let Time judge the Words that I speak as True or false.

Soon you will have the evidence that your eye demands. >>



Yadda yadda yadda. Just know this: Your rantings will alienate people who would other wise support you, and will likely draw no additional supporters. I other words, it's counter productive.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< Yadda yadda yadda. Just know this: Your rantings will alienate people who would other wise support you, and will likely draw no additional supporters. I other words, it's counter productive. >>

Palco's position is the same one as the Zealots who killed Rabin because he wanted peace with the Palestinians.

 

[bizmark]

say guys -- want to join my religion? I had a dream last night, and God told me that he gave me and all followers of my religion the entire Pacific Northwest. One of the most beautiful areas in the world. It's obviously the Chosen Land. See, now all we've got to do is move there and build up enough of a presence. Then one day we'll whip out the guns and kill or kick out everybody else. Then we'll declare independence, and we'll be all set! God is on our side -- we can't lose! Whaddaya say?

 

[MrPALCO]

Yadda yadda yadda. Just know this: Your rantings will alienate people who would other wise support you, and will likely draw no additional supporters. I other words, it's counter productive.

You assume that I speak in order to add my voice and words to a negotiation of these matters. I do no such thing.

My purpose is to repeat the Truth that I have heard and to raise it as a standard.

Let Time prove the validity of the Standard.

 

[Amused]

<< say guys -- want to join my religion? I had a dream last night, and God told me that he gave me and all followers of my religion the entire Pacific Northwest. One of the most beautiful areas in the world. It's obviously the Chosen Land. See, now all we've got to do is move there and build up enough of a presence. Then one day we'll whip out the guns and kill or kick out everybody else. Then we'll declare independence, and we'll be all set! God is on our side -- we can't lose! Whaddaya say? >>



Pacific Northwest? Is your god high? (Must be, the only good thing up there is the pot) Too much rain and too many enviro nuts.

 

[MrPALCO]

Israel is the Sovereign and the Palestinians must act as guests.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< You assume that I speak in order to add my voice and words to a negotiation of these matters. I do no such thing.

My purpose is to repeat the Truth that I have heard and to raise it as a standard.

Let Time prove the validity of the Standard.

>>



As usual Paltroll only speaks to incite.

 

[bizmark]

well I guess that we can tackle this on a religious level too. MrPalco, to what religion do you adhere? Would you care to quote a few passages from your holy book, detailing exactly why Israel's existence is sacred?

 

[MrPALCO]

I speak so that you will have a reference when you see with your eye that which has already been established.

Edit: I am not religious, I am free.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I speak so that you will have a reference when you see with your eye that which has already been established. >>

If Heavan is going to filled with dipsh!ts like you Hell doesn't look so bad.

 

[MrPALCO]

If Heavan is going to filled with dipsh!ts like you Hell doesn't look so bad.


That is your choice. However, do not underestimate the many who have asked God for your life. These words will ring in your spirit before it is too late for you.

 

[StormRider]

Actually, I think Israel has lost. They seem to have lost the propaganda war and I doubt their recent actions will stop future suicide bombings. Right now, it seems the whole world is against Israel. Moderate Arabs are extremely angered and most of Europe seems to be siding against them. They can't occupy that land forever -- all it does is generate never-ending hatred from the Arab world.

I think the only hope is for Israel to take a major risk by unilaterally giving the Palestinians the West Bank and Gaza strip (although it seems weird that the Palestinian nation will be physically separated -- but this will be similiar to Alaska and Hawaii for us I guess) and perhaps all of Jerusalem (with the provision that they will respect all three major religions of the world that find Jerusalem important -- no burning down important Jewish temples and treating Jewish residents badly) and letting them have their own nation.

Here's the reason for giving Jerusalem away -- Tel'Avi used to be the capital of Israel -- I clearly remember this -- so it can be the capital of Israel again. Jerusalem can be a major tourist attraction -- millions of people will want to visit it. A future Palestine's economy can be tourrism based. Tourists avoid going to places where there is lots of violence. Therefore, it would be in the future Palestines economic interest to avoid suicide bombings and other terriorist acts.

They have to unilaterly give the land back now because they are now in a position of strength -- it must not be seen as a victory for the tactics of terrorism. They should strike hard at the terrorists now, and then immediately give those lands to the Palestinians.

 

[kgraeme]

<< Religious rantings are NOT going to help Israel's cause. All it does is make you sound the the irrational Muslim fanatics who strap bombs their on kids. >>



The problem is that it all does come down to "religious rantings". The politics that have developed in the region over the centuries are just reflections of the religious irrationality. This is the fundamental reason why peace isn't possible in the Middle East through political means. It needs to be a grassroots change of the people, and the roots are religion.

Religion by it's very nature is irrational. The situation in the Mid-East is grounded in religion. Therefore there is no rational argument that can justify what is happening.

 

[bizmark]

<< Edit: I am not religious, I am free. >>



Free of what? Obviously not severe mental illness.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< A future Palestine's economy can be tourrism based >>

Hahaha.. sorry but do you know how funny that sounds?

 

[bizmark]

<< Actually, I think Israel has lost. They seem to have lost the propaganda war and I doubt their recent actions will stop future suicide bombings. Right now, it seems the whole world is against Israel. Moderate Arabs are extremely angered and most of Europe seems to be siding against them. They can't occupy that land forever -- all it does is generate never-ending hatred from the Arab world.

I think the only hope is for Israel to take a major risk by unilaterally giving the Palestinians the West Bank and Gaza strip (although it seems weird that the Palestinian nation will be physically separated -- but this will be similiar to Alaska and Hawaii for us I guess) and perhaps all of Jerusalem (with the provision that they will respect all three major religions of the world that find Jerusalem important -- no burning down important Jewish temples and treating Jewish residents badly) and letting them have their own nation.

Here's the reason for giving Jerusalem away -- Tel'Avi used to be the capital of Israel -- I clearly remember this -- so it can be the capital of Israel again. Jerusalem can be a major tourist attraction -- millions of people will want to visit it. A future Palestine's economy can be tourrism based. Tourists avoid going to places where there is lots of violence. Therefore, it would be in the future Palestines economic interest to avoid suicide bombings and other terriorist acts.

They have to unilaterly give the land back now because they are now in a position of strength -- it must not be seen as a victory for the tactics of terrorism. They should strike hard at the terrorists now, and then immediately give those lands to the Palestinians. >>



StormRider is right. Israel needs to do something to end the gripe that the Palestinians/Arabs have (give up the West Bank). Once they do it, if terrorism continues, then Israel will be fully justified in doing whatever it wants. If Israel removes the justification that the Palestinians have for terrorism, then world opinion cannot continue to side with the Palestinians.

AFAIK Israel has always claimed Jerusalem as its capital but it has never been recognized as such by other nations. The U.S. and other countries have always had their embassies in Tel Aviv.

I think that the best thing would be for Jerusalem to be declared a Free City like the Vatican. It would be ruled by a council with members of all three religions: Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity.

 

[MrPALCO]

Israel and the people in power, know of her right standing with God. This knowledge makes her invincible and unwilling to give up her territory even when faced by an ultimatum by a Superpower.
Soon Israel will have no defenders but God.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< think that the best thing would be for Jerusalem to be declared a Free City like the Vatican. It would be ruled by a council with members of all three religions: Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity. >>

Yeah right, let the irrational rule.

 

[Twerpzilla]

All you israel supporters, you give me great beely laughs. Only in America and to a certain extent England have people ever been so buffaloed into such mass mis-information. Really now, take a look at reality. This whole thing started in 1948 when israel, who Englan had just been gave the lands owned by Palistiniens, started killing Palistinians and taking there land. Israel did this to make room for the influx of jews from port WWII Europe. So the Palistinians fight for there land and freedom, similerly to what the Free-French did against vichey French/Nazi govt/occupiers during WWII, or what we Americans did against the English during the Revolutionary war. As the israelies were well armed by the English and the United States, and the Arabs had no benifactor to arm them, the small number of israelies prevailed against the poorly organized Arab freedom fighters. Forward to the 1960's, the PLO is formed to fight the occupiers of there land. Reasonable reaction to having your lands invaded by terrorists. So in 1967 israel makes a "pre-emptive" strike against what remains of Palistine. again invading land that is not theres to take. So by now the Palistinians are rightfully mad. Thru the decades, Palistinians, with little mony or weapons do there best to fight the terrorist that are stealing there land. Suicide bombers are a natural progression born of frustration. Ask yourself, how desperate would you have to be to blow yourself up? Pretty desperate. Israel invades Sothern Lebanon in 1983, again a occupying force. There Sharon has his hand with having the Christian Miltia murder about 3,000 Palistinian men, woman and children at two camps in southern Lebanon. Slaughtered. Shot as they ran. Children and woman shot in the back by the big brave israelies. By all right Sharon should be on trial for war crimes, as the rest of the world realizes. Israel started a investigation into the slaughter, which was stopped once they realized there culpability in the court of world opinion. But Sharon was exiled from the Israelie politicle arena for several years. So now we have a sinister mass murderer in charge of the israelie terrorist. That scares me. Anyways, Oslo was the "big deal" that gave the Palistinians "everything". What they got was 95% of the pre 1967 lands. Of course minus most all of the israelie settlements. So that bring the land returned to around 62%. And with the israelie settlements having security zones around them that effectivly cut off communication between Palistinian cities. Effectivly dividing Palistinians into easliy handled groups.

Bottom line, israel is the most succesful terrorist nation on earth.

Now, who benifits if there is peace with Palistine and israel? Palistine. And maybe the USA, as we could justify cutting off welfare to Israel. Heck, we can justify it now if Bush had the balls to.

Who loses? Israel, as they will suffer from intense and violent fighting between faction in israel. Settleing now would be the best thing that Palistine could do to bring down Israel. Most of the Arab counties lose. They are all dictatorships, who's people can remain focused on the Palistinians as the people that are worse off then they are. Once they Palistinians are free, then Arabs will begin to look at there plight, as they will now be they people worst off in the middle east. Thoughts of revolt and anarchy, the potential for dictators to be ousted from power, keeps Arab leaders from supporting Palistine to the extent need to defeat Israel.

Anyways, a few thoughts, a slight reality check for some, a very simple outline for those that want to research the topic more and add the many, exaustingly many, details to the story.

 

[Red Dawn]

Hey as long as you can get "Beely Laughs" what else can they ask for?




<< and the Arabs had no benifactor to arm them >>

Yeah I guess the Soviet Union doesn't count. Face it when the Jews started kicking your ass you ran like cowards.


Sounds like you are one of those muddle minded sh!tty soccer twit from ES. I'm no supporter of Israel (nor Palestine) but I can tell a wraith of BS from brainwashed idiot a mile away and you rant reeiks of camel sh!t. Too bad we need oil or you guy would be relegated to your rightful place in this world. That of an insignificant group of ass backward countries who haven't made any notable contributions to the Human race in other 300 years.

 

[bizmark]

<<

<< think that the best thing would be for Jerusalem to be declared a Free City like the Vatican. It would be ruled by a council with members of all three religions: Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity. >>

Yeah right, let the irrational rule. >>



Well, the irrational are ruling already, and if we just gave Jerusalem to the Palestinians, it'd be more of the same, just the opposite direction. I figured that maybe with a multi-religious government, the irrationalities would sort of cancel each other out.

 

[Amused]

Twerpzilla,

Who's been buffaloed?

The Arab nations were armed by the USSR. In fact, they out numbered the Israelis 3-1 in tanks, 4-1 in planes, and 5-1 in artillery. Not to mention 3-1 in troops.

For the most part, Isreali's owned much of the land before the state of Israel was formed. They lawfully bought it from the governing body at the time.

There were less than 250,000 Arabs living in the region called "Palestine" before the Jewish migration started in the late 1800s.

Arabs rushed to the area in a vain attempt to outnumber Jews as they migrated.

The US offered no signifigant aid to Israel until after the 1967 war. The Israelis were using French jets in the 1967 war.

The Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon were the home bases of the terrorists -- who would attack, then slink back to the camps and blend in with the refugees. DON'T base your military among civilians if you don't want them to be harmed.

And that's just a few of your BS "facts" corrected right there. Maybe you ought to actually study the history before thinking to "educate" others on it?