Has anyone seen a ghost of a love one who's passed away?

[Platypus]

Nothing of note except that I moved out of my childhood house when I was younger and this old couple moved into it. The old woman stayed in my room and died there leaving the husband for a few years before he passed as well. I lived only a few miles away from the house a few years after and one time I drove by and there was a stop sign right in front of my old bedroom window outside. I came to a stop and saw an old woman looking out of the curtains and when I looked again there was nothing there. Kind of creepy.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gurck
I've had dreams with my grandparents in them, but haven't seen them in my waking hours. Humans want to see ghosts; indeed, we're genetically inclined to take interest in the mystical & supernatural - but they simply don't exist. Dying and diminishing to nothingness is a sad fact of life.

And an easy way out . It does not explain what happens to the energy that is contained within each of us. If you are such a "scientist" or "pragmatist" to subscribe to the Newtonian Laws of Physics we use to define our world, how do you throw away the Conservation of Energy laws when it comes to the passing of the human being?

I say they do exist and your denials will not change my experiences, or my perceptions.

heat dissipation, next? 🙂

A two word answer that doesn't explain anything, Try again. Explain the weight loss at death as well.
I take it you believe in supernovas, Have you ever seen one, IN REAL LIFE? Not a photo, because they can be manufactured? Can you tell me when the next one will occur and where? You believe they exist because you have been conditioned to not question "science" and to reject anything that doesn't have "science" built into it. You believe they exist primarily on FAITH, which is precisly why people believe in God and yes.... ghosts.

Mass loss is a desperate grasp from the rr and isn't well documented Any research which backs it up is likely funded by fundies. Research set into action by those with a political agenda rarely takes fact into account in its findings 😉 This is why a debate as simple as butter vs. margarine has drawn no real conclusion despite hundreds of studies... But I'll humor you and say that there's a lot we don't know, and that we're constantly learning. Attributing your alleged "mass loss" to any one certain thing out of an infinite number of possibilities without a shred of data to support your claim doesn't make for a very good argument. Supernovas have been documented and are fact, ghosts have not - despite the latter enjoying far greater interest among human beings - what would the average person rather hear, a ghost story or astronomy data? Keep in mind the average human makes the average AOLer look like a MENSA candidate... Your argument is .. lacking.

Not that atheism vs. religion has a place here, but since you brought it up I'll mention that existence is the theory, not nonexistence. Nonexistence is what we see on a daily basis, the claim is god, and therefore the religious are the ones with the burden of proof and those who must have "faith", ie. genetically dictated belief without evidence. My "faith" isn't faith at all, but logic based on observation.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Gurck


Mass loss is a desperate grasp from the rr and isn't well documented Any research which backs it up is likely funded by fundies. Research set into action by those with a political agenda rarely takes fact into account in its findings 😉 This is why a debate as simple as butter vs. margarine has drawn no real conclusion despite hundreds of studies... But I'll humor you and say that there's a lot we don't know, and that we're constantly learning. Attributing your alleged "mass loss" to any one certain thing out of an infinite number of possibilities without a shred of data to support your claim doesn't make for a very good argument. Supernovas have been documented and are fact. Ghosts have not. Your argument is ... lacking.

Not that atheism vs. religion has a place here, but since you brought it up I'll mention that existence is the theory, not nonexistence. Nonexistence is what we see on a daily basis, the claim is god, and therefore the religious are the ones with the burden of proof and those who must have "faith", ie. genetically dictated belief without evidence. My "faith" isn't faith at all, but logic based on observation.

Well, your faith is that your logic is infallible. That your observations are superior to mine, yet you did not experience my observations, you simply dismiss them. Yet they did in fact occur, I have witnesses to these events and yet, they do not count for you. That is not logical. That is an emotional reaction based on social conditioning.
We BELIEVE that supernovas exist, but you have not witnessed one nor have you documented one. We simply BELIEVE ON our FAITH in SCIENCE. So your arguement is lacking as well.
Nice try though.
By the way, no need to humor me, I know what I saw, and felt and what has happened over time and space in two different "labs". You may need to keep your humor for yourself should one decide to "convince" you. 😉

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gurck
I've had dreams with my grandparents in them, but haven't seen them in my waking hours. Humans want to see ghosts; indeed, we're genetically inclined to take interest in the mystical & supernatural - but they simply don't exist. Dying and diminishing to nothingness is a sad fact of life.

And an easy way out . It does not explain what happens to the energy that is contained within each of us. If you are such a "scientist" or "pragmatist" to subscribe to the Newtonian Laws of Physics we use to define our world, how do you throw away the Conservation of Energy laws when it comes to the passing of the human being?

I say they do exist and your denials will not change my experiences, or my perceptions.

heat dissipation, next? 🙂

A two word answer that doesn't explain anything, Try again. Explain the weight loss at death as well.
I take it you believe in supernovas, Have you ever seen one, IN REAL LIFE? Not a photo, because they can be manufactured? Can you tell me when the next one will occur and where? You believe they exist because you have been conditioned to not question "science" and to reject anything that doesn't have "science" built into it. You believe they exist primarily on FAITH, which is precisly why people believe in God and yes.... ghosts.

A lot of people have seen supernovae in real life. We have physics that explains them, have documented recordings of them, and you can point your telescope at supernova remnants any night of the year. Sure photos can be manufactured, but you can look at the remnants (which are VERY long lived... 1987A is still relatively young), and take your own photos. You can model them on computers based on testable physics.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gurck


Mass loss is a desperate grasp from the rr and isn't well documented Any research which backs it up is likely funded by fundies. Research set into action by those with a political agenda rarely takes fact into account in its findings 😉 This is why a debate as simple as butter vs. margarine has drawn no real conclusion despite hundreds of studies... But I'll humor you and say that there's a lot we don't know, and that we're constantly learning. Attributing your alleged "mass loss" to any one certain thing out of an infinite number of possibilities without a shred of data to support your claim doesn't make for a very good argument. Supernovas have been documented and are fact. Ghosts have not. Your argument is ... lacking.

Not that atheism vs. religion has a place here, but since you brought it up I'll mention that existence is the theory, not nonexistence. Nonexistence is what we see on a daily basis, the claim is god, and therefore the religious are the ones with the burden of proof and those who must have "faith", ie. genetically dictated belief without evidence. My "faith" isn't faith at all, but logic based on observation.

Well, your faith is that your logic is infallible. That your observations are superior to mine, yet you did not experience my observations, you simply dismiss them. Yet they did in fact occur, I have witnesses to these events and yet, they do not count for you. That is not logical. That is an emotional reaction based on social conditioning.
We BELIEVE that supernovas exist, but you have not witnessed one nor have you documented one. We simply BELIEVE ON our FAITH in SCIENCE. So your arguement is lacking as well.
Nice try though.
By the way, no need to humor me, I know what I saw, and felt and what has happened over time and space in two different "labs". You may need to keep your humor for yourself should one decide to "convince" you. 😉

Here's a picture

Your turn. Dude in floppy straw hat please.

 

[Gurck]

Now you're mixing up ghosts with the god tangent you brought into this debate... get some sleep, never start an argument with a board certified insomniac during the wee hours 😉

If it were my observation vs. yours, as you claim, you'd have a plausible argument - however it isn't. Yours has never been confirmed while mine is the default, backed up by millenia of interest and centuries with the equipment to record evidence and the fact that none exists.

Dont' mix up faith with science; the two are polar opposites. Faith is belief without evidence while science is belief only with evidence.

 

[oogabooga]

this ghost thing turned into yart pretty quickly. I liked silverpig's ghost story, gave me a good chuckle and a moral i'll hold onto for some time 🙂

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Gurck
Now you're mixing up ghosts with the god tangent you brought into this debate... get some sleep, never start an argument with a board certified insomniac during the wee hours 😉

I'm glad you admit you're certifiable. save me from calling you crazy.... 😉
Don't confuse my use of the word FAITH with the religious connotation. It isn't being used in that sense, but in the sense that it is the belief of one's convictions.

If it were my observation vs. yours, as you claim, you'd have a plausible argument - however it isn't. Yours has never been confirmed while mine is the default, backed up by millenia of interest and centuries with the equipment to record evidence and the fact that none exists.

That fact is the subject of this debate, and as such cannot be used as evidence. My evidence, should we care to disturb the ex, or track down the ex roomies, would be their seperate observations of doors slamming, cold rooms and the cessation of same after the steps I took. That is evidence, has been documented in the ancedotal re-telling of the events, yet you simply choose to dismiss it. Yours is only "the default" in this day and age and society. It is a result of the belief that science rules all. This belief dismisses anything not quantifiable. But, it does not explain everything in existance. Why do placebos work? Explain how aspirin stops pain... Why do medicines work for some people and not for others? There are a number of and a myriad of occurances, actions and events that science simply has no answer for. There are no absolutes or guarantees in anything, and this includes science.

Dont' mix up faith with science; the two are polar opposites. Faith is belief without evidence while science is belief only with evidence.

The religious and the scientist share one trait, they both believe they are right, however there are scientists who are religious. How do you reconcile that? Science is the faith of humanists.

I'll pick up on this in the morning. As engaging as this debate is, I must beg off now and prepare for tomorrow. At least , Science tells me there will be a tomorrow, in fact I have FAITH that there will be. 😉 😀
good night.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Here's a picture

Your turn. Dude in floppy straw hat please.

Dude in straw hat

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: silverpig

Here's a picture

Your turn. Dude in floppy straw hat please.

Dude in straw hat

OMG, you've proven that guys wear straw hats!

Great work Shaggy, now you just have to unmask him to find out who that ghost really is! I bet it's the old prospector. What do you say there Scooby?

Rye think rye rell some rull-sh!t!

 

[Mojoed]

I'll believe in ghosts when I see one, and I don't ever expect to see one. I think the concept of ghosts is necessary for some humans, an emotional defense mechanism of sorts. The alternative is unthinkable, that we simply fade away to nothing when we die, like before we were conceived/born.

I can see how this discussion can quickly become a matter of religion, as a ghost=soul to some people. That being said, I don't mean to disrespect any of the above stories. I believe that you believe you saw something, I just won't believe it myself until I see it with my own two eyes.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Mojoed
I'll believe in ghosts when I see one, and I don't ever expect to see one.

ill believe im dreaming or hallucinating when i see one.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

A friend from high school had a rocking chair from her deceased grandfather. One day she decided to randomly take pictures of her house. In the negative, there is a shost of an elderly man reading a book, sitting in the chair. You could actually see detail like glasses and the such. The ghost does not appear in the positive.

It freaks me out a bit and til lthis day, I really don't know what comes after death, but I wouldn't doubt it if there is something more.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Oh second one.

My friends from college that were in a fraternity lived in a very old house. It was actually part of hte underground railroad but that's not the thing.

Some stories:
1) One person slept in the outback (addition to the house in the rear). He woke up in the middle of hte night and heard children playing. Ghosts? Well, he tells the story and it's hard to believe but if you know him, he absolkutely refuses to go back to the outback anymore.

2) Multiple people from this franternity can tell you that if you sleep on the second floor when no one is on the third floor that you can hear footsteps running up and down the third floor hallway. It's directional noise of feet hitting that goes from one end of the house to the other. The sounds of laughter don't help their nerves either.

 

[dabuddha]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I don't want to spoil this, but I think you need to do less drugs.

Seriously, nobody in the world has ever even proven the existence of ghosts or anything supernatural _at all_, _ever_ in any reproduceable way.

what?

Ignore him; he's still not learned to use capitals.

Just because something hasn't been proven yet does not mean it is not true.

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
This is the honest to God's truth.

God's truth? When has 'God' ever said anything so we can judge whether he lies or not?

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
rooms that are 20degrees colder than the rest of the house

so a room is a little chilly therefore there must be a ghost? Top notch reasoning. I'm assuming you studied the thermal properties of the entire building and didn't just limit to "well, the window was closed".

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I saw his apparition out of the corner of my eye

So... you didn't see whatever you saw properly, then? You didn't see it full on, 2 feet infront of you? And of course, showers don't produce steam or anything that could obscure your view... no chance of error there, I'm sure.

I like this one the best:

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I'm glad you admit you're certifiable. save me from calling you crazy....

but then:

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Everytime a door slammed, I would say "Ok Mrs Fineberg, I hear you. I'm still here."

lol

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I KNOW they are out there, waiting and watching us.

You mean you THINK they are out there. A slamming door and a dodgy TV aren't strong enough evidence to support this. Not even close. Not by a million miles. Come back when you actually have some proper evidence. Remember scientific theory: a theory is acceptable as long as it cannot be disproved. Your campfire ghost stories can be explained, but because you want to believe in that mumbo jumbo your mind lets you. This is the clutter you were talking about in the heads of adults, I assume 🙂

Humans love a mystery, don't they?

 

[skace]

You know whats scary? Asking a question to an empty room. Go home tonight and walk into an empty room of your house, stand there for a second and ask "Is anyone there?". I think this plays on our imagination in the same way ghost stories do. What if? What if you asked and someone answered?

I like how Aliencraft is the ghost pro. Theres always one person who claims to be the ghost pro. He has even exorcised a house using sage. Next he will claim to have pictures of ghostly orbs and photographic negatives containing spirits.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gurck
I've had dreams with my grandparents in them, but haven't seen them in my waking hours. Humans want to see ghosts; indeed, we're genetically inclined to take interest in the mystical & supernatural - but they simply don't exist. Dying and diminishing to nothingness is a sad fact of life.

And an easy way out . It does not explain what happens to the energy that is contained within each of us. If you are such a "scientist" or "pragmatist" to subscribe to the Newtonian Laws of Physics we use to define our world, how do you throw away the Conservation of Energy laws when it comes to the passing of the human being?

I say they do exist and your denials will not change my experiences, or my perceptions.

Conservation of energy? What energy are we not accounting for here? We expend energy primarily through heat production. And when you die, your body decays because microscopic particles are eating it. There's no breakdown of the laws of thermodynamics. Thoughts are not energy, unless you count the calories expended by powering your brain.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: skace
You know whats scary? Asking a question to an empty room. Go home tonight and walk into an empty room of your house, stand there for a second and ask "Is anyone there?". I think this plays on our imagination in the same way ghost stories do. What if? What if you asked and someone answered?

I like how Aliencraft is the ghost pro. Theres always one person who claims to be the ghost pro. He has even exorcised a house using sage. Next he will claim to have pictures of ghostly orbs and photographic negatives containing spirits.

LOL, I never claimed any such thing. A question was asked and I answered as honestly and as factually as possible. When I am called in essence a liar for stating what HAS occured by people who were nowher near during the events is when I use whatever means at my disposal in my defense.
It is YOUR belief system, standards and personal prejudices which place such titles upon me and as such, I reject them.
I used the methodology I had at my disposal, which seemed to work. Which was good enough for me at the time.
I don't demand that you believe anything, unlike the science or religious zealots, both of whom demand total acceptance of their ways and means. In fact, I only ask that you keep an open mind for things that defy explanation by standard or common means or methodology.
I would prefer to think that the TV in that hotel was the victim of some electronic malfunction, I cannot explain how the fan was rotated 180 degress and moved 6 inches against a wall, except by vibration, yet it never moved during the preceeding 2 hours before retiring that evening. I have no alternative explanations for the activities at Fineberg House. As with all other things and like anyother good scientist, all I have are my observations, those of my witnesses and an inquisitive and open mind.
Unlike SOME of us, I have not made up my mind to the contrary and demand repetitive occurances on demand as proof, hence my star nova example. I still tend to be skeptical towards claims of the paranormal, spoon bending, remote viewing and such, but I KNOW what I saw from that bathroom window, it was not shadowy or vague, it was as solid as the tree outside right now. I KNOW as does the ex and the former roomie ( who still lives there) that there was a change in the "feeling" of the house after the sage ritual, which was suggested by a Native American friend. You'll take note that I did not involve any Roman Catholic rituals in this "cleansing" as I am basically agnostic in my nature.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: loic2003
God's truth? When has 'God' ever said anything so we can judge whether he lies or not?

It's a common expression. Now we are debating semantics and not the occurances.

so a room is a little chilly therefore there must be a ghost? Top notch reasoning. I'm assuming you studied the thermal properties of the entire building and didn't just limit to "well, the window was closed".

Actually there was a bit more involved in my determination, hence my ability to place a rating of 20degrees below the rest of the house. But brevity and ancedotal recounting require I place the important elements in the account, and leave the technical details for another thread.

So... you didn't see whatever you saw properly, then? You didn't see it full on, 2 feet infront of you? And of course, showers don't produce steam or anything that could obscure your view... no chance of error there, I'm sure.

Actually no there is no error, as it was the movement that I saw out of the corner of my eye and then turned to look straight at it, while keeping my eyes on it. When I blinked as he moved to turn into the shed, his image was gone/ disappeared

I like this one the best:

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I'm glad you admit you're certifiable. save me from calling you crazy....

In your zeal to discount me, you MISQUOTE me, you left off the smiley indicating a tounge in cheek/ humorous response. If you're going to attack someone to discredit them, proper science requires that you include ALL evidence, and not just picking and choosing what you deem relevant. Anything else is emotional propagandistic technique.

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Everytime a door slammed, I would say "Ok Mrs Fineberg, I hear you. I'm still here."

lol

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I KNOW they are out there, waiting and watching us.

You mean you THINK they are out there. A slamming door and a dodgy TV aren't strong enough evidence to support this. Not even close. Not by a million miles. Come back when you actually have some proper evidence. Remember scientific theory: a theory is acceptable as long as it cannot be disproved. Your campfire ghost stories can be explained, but because you want to believe in that mumbo jumbo your mind lets you. This is the clutter you were talking about in the heads of adults, I assume 🙂

Humans love a mystery, don't they?

Yes humans do, and this is what tends to draw "scientific" minds to the unusual and mysterious. Your assumption of the clutter in the minds of adults is incorrect. I mean the clutter that occurs due to the increased responsibilities of the here and now, the day to day trials and tribulations and the basic abandonment of wonder at the myriad marvelous things that Nature bestows upon us. That sense of wonder that is present before Mommy or Daddy says "NO".
It is that inquisitiveness that makes explorers and scientists out of some people and not others.
I mean that I KNOW they are out there. YOU mean you DON'T think they are out there and until you have evidence that suits YOUR criteria, you remain unconvinced.
I'll bet the first scientists who dabbled with electricity had the same sort of skeptics who doubted that energy could be transmitted from one place to another, or that there was even such a thing.
How many experiments were done with other substances before it was determined that metals are a good conductor and wood is not? If one were to simply observe one experiment using oak as a conducting substance, one might be inclined to disbelieve any claims that electricity exists, yet we now know that it does.
The fact that the TV and Slamming doors don't fit your criteria doesn't bother me. You weren't there. Had you been, you would be affirming my account and it would be strong enough evidence. I know the ex doesn't joke about it at my expense anymore.
Either way, the burden of proof is not upon me. I leave that to the future and others with more time on their hands for such things. I am content to tread lightly upon other's life experiences and to not be so arrogant as to think that I know it all.
🙂 < Note smiley indicating no ill will towards your skepticism and to indicate a general feeling of comaraderie.

 

[Gurck]

Downplaying science is only hurting your argument. Since you didn't hear me the other three times, SCIENCE IS NOT FAITH!!!. It's the opposite. What's your next statement, NASA is a crock and the alignment of Jupiter and Saturn told you this? :laugh: The reason it's hard to seperate this from religion is that the reason for humans' eagerness to believe in each is genetically dictated; this is evidenced by ten millenia of belief without a shred of evidence. Apparently we're much better for the survival of the species if we believe we have a father figure eyeing our every move 😉 I'll go into that more if you want, but for now I'll say that it's an inclination toward mystical/spiritual bs. People of a scientific bent with religious beliefs are merely buckling under the pressure of society and/or feeling the genetic urge too strongly. BTW what people say isn't evidence, as most people are full of it. If it were, alien abductions, the loch ness monster, and god would be real 😉

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Gurck
Downplaying science is only hurting your argument.

I didn't downplay science, I simply said that it is the strange , unknown and mysterious which causes scientists to investigate in order to explain it to their satisfaction.

Since you didn't hear me the other three times, SCIENCE IS NOT FAITH!!!.

I did hear you, it's just that it is irrelevant to the topic at hand to wit... Has anyone seen a ghost....You want to turn this into a semantic excersize and I'm humoring you on the fringes of defending my observations

It's the opposite. What's your next statement, NASA is a crock and the alignment of Jupiter and Saturn told you this? :laugh: The reason it's hard to seperate this from religion is that the reason for humans' eagerness to believe in each is genetically dictated; this is evidenced by ten millenia of belief without a shred of evidence.

Lets see your evidence that belief in a higher power is genetically encoded

Apparently we're much better for the survival of the species if we believe we have a father figure eyeing our every move 😉

You reveal much about your own prejudices by this statement alone. In reality, there are many matriarichal figures within ancient "religions", spiritual beliefs,iirc

I'll go into that more if you want, but for now I'll say that it's an inclination toward mystical/spiritual bs. People of a scientific bent with religious beliefs are merely buckling under the pressure of society and/or feeling the genetic urge too strongly.

I daresay you've managed to insult just about all those who do have a spiritual / religious belief and now are progressing to those who happen to have scientific backgrounds as well. I guess that makes you more intolerant of ideas that do not fit your idea of the human condition than I. That is your perogative, but it is not very inquisitive nor would it lead one to new discoveries.

BTW what people say isn't evidence, as most people are full of it. If it were, alien abductions, the loch ness monster, and god would be real 😉

But what people see and hear and observe and touch and feel IS evidence. I saw the figure of a man in broad daylight who had been dead for 5 years. I felt the temperature discrepancy in the house in the middle of a Northern California Summer day and measured it at more than 20 degrees differential. I was awakened by a TV at full volume and changing channels by itself and observed a desk fan that had repositioned itself after more than 2 hours of stationary operation and turned itself off, even though the switch was mechanical and had been left on.
That, my scientific colleage, IS scientific observation. You may disagree with my conclusions, but I'm of the belief that one day in the future, these sorts of phenomena will be corroborated scientifcally to the satisfaction of most skeptics. That you dismiss my own experiences out of hand does not bother me in the least. You were not there, and those that have lived in the Fineberg House HAVE corroborated, independantly these things I speak of, and that alone invalidates your assertions that it is impossible.
200 years ago it was thought to be impossible that someone would walk on the moon, fly in the air, or exceed 60 mph. All of these"scientific" impossibilities eventually fell away, due in large part to the beliefs and FAITH by some that they were possible.

Have a good, if dull, life.

😀 < indicating humor and general acceptance of your opposing pov.

 

[Mik3y]

i believe in ghosts. i just hope i never see one.

 

[Gurck]

Actually you did downplay science, you equated it to believing something for no reason. Why back out of what you said? It looks worse than sticking with it. I've turned it into nothing, you decided to make one sentence into a debate.

Lets see your evidence that belief in a higher power is genetically encoded

It's a relatively new idea and has received a lot of interest lately, good question! A new book on it is out and causing controversy, The God Gene by Dean Hamer - if I'm lucky Santa may be giving me a copy soon 🙂 Not that I swallow whatever I read, but the idea fills in a lot of gaps in my own musings on why religion is such a powerful force for our otherwise logical species. Here's a short article on the theory, it's interesting but misses a few good points which would strengthen the author's argument.

I daresay you've managed to insult just about all those who do have a spiritual / religious belief and now are progressing to those who happen to have scientific backgrounds as well. I guess that makes you more intolerant of ideas that do not fit your idea of the human condition than I. That is your perogative, but it is not very inquisitive nor would it lead one to new discoveries.

I don't post here to win popularity points. Anyone with a scientific, logical, pragmatic mind knows that the odds of existence are pretty slim, considering it's been the focal point of our species for the past ten millenia and yet no evidence has ever surfaced despite all the attention given it. The best anyone can do is a grilled cheese sandwich, the toasting pattern of which vaguely resembles a woman :roll:

But what people see and hear and observe and touch and feel IS evidence.

Ok, I see that you're wrong 😉 How's that for paradox? Why, again, does the scientific community not accept the reality of ghosts, given your evidence? :laugh:

Have a good, if dull, life.

This sentence says more than the rest of your post 😉

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Gurck
Actually you did downplay science, you equated it to believing something for no reason.

Where did I do this?

It's a relatively new idea and has received a lot of interest lately, good question!

It wasn't a question. It was a request for your documentation. Since you so freely dismiss MY observations, I must insist that you produce your own data and not that of someone not involved in this discussion. Of course , you can't because what you are defending are your BELIEFS, which are based in the FAITH of Science being the answer to everything. You still have not answered many of the questions posed of you during our little discussion here.

A new book on it is out and causing controversy, The God Gene by Dean Hamer - if I'm lucky Santa may be giving me a copy soon 🙂 Not that I swallow whatever I read, but the idea fills in a lot of gaps in my own musings on why religion is such a powerful force for our otherwise logical species. Here's a short article on the theory, it's interesting but misses a few good points which would strengthen the author's argument.

Again, I reiterate that science is the "Faith" of Humanists.

I daresay you've managed to insult just about all those who do have a spiritual / religious belief and now are progressing to those who happen to have scientific backgrounds as well. I guess that makes you more intolerant of ideas that do not fit your idea of the human condition than I. That is your perogative, but it is not very inquisitive nor would it lead one to new discoveries.

I don't post here to win popularity points. Anyone with a scientific, logical, pragmatic mind knows that the odds of existence are pretty slim, considering it's been the focal point of our species for the past ten millenia and yet no evidence has ever surfaced despite all the attention given it. The best anyone can do is a grilled cheese sandwich, the toasting pattern of which vaguely resembles a woman :roll:

Which is a deflection from our point of topic here which is "ghosts" versus scientific proof / methodology. You ignore my main point which is that all ( or a majority of) scientific discoveries were once considered mysterious or in some other way impossible. You continue to lump all paranormal events into one bag and say "False" . That is neither logical, nor scientific. It is an emotional reaction. Which as a human, you are entitled to, but do not try to convince anyone that you are being "logical" when you do such things. That the ideas are not yet proved is not surprising. It's taken several thousand years for us to achieve flight and look how far we've come in the last 100 years since we finally did. Medical Science cannot explain HOW aspirin relieves pain, but we take it anyway. Placebos work almost as often as real drugs. Some drugs do not work the same from one patient to the next. If SCIENCE were truly as infallible as you claim it to be, this would not be the case.

But what people see and hear and observe and touch and feel IS evidence.

Ok, I see that you're wrong 😉 How's that for paradox?

It's not a paradox, it's ridicule, and semantics again. Furthermore it's contradictory of you to claim logic and scientific methodology on one hand and then dismiss it in the other. My observations and methods were the simplest of scientific methods, yet you continue to dismiss them out of hand. This debate has devolved into one where you seem to think all that has been discovered has. And I am simply saying that it is not so.

Have a good, if dull, life.

This sentence says more than the rest of your post 😉

That sentence, actually refers to your inability to see beyond the end of your nose, think beyond what you already "believe" and question what you believe to be the dominate paradigm. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers, such as yourself, is certainly doomed to a dull life.
And may I add, one devoid of scientific discovery.