Harvard: Once you get in, it's easy

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CSoup

Senior member
Jan 9, 2002
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<< We are talking about students who got 1500+ SATs and 4.0s in HS.
Harvard doesn't have the guts to tell them they aren't all that. Also, they fear that if they give too many B's to students, they will have hard time getting into Med school or Law school.
I know in Cornell, engineering classes were pretty hard, and average was probably a B. But I took some classes in Human Ecology college, and I got an A without studying at all. The exams were just common sense questions.
>>



Don't forget about the physics classes. Those were the main reason people dropped EE. C- was the mean I think. The engineering college actually has the highest average GPA and percent honors of all the schools. Maybe they grade easier in engineering or the people in humec and hotel do poorly even with easy classes.

Man I thought the honors rate in engineering which is based only on GPA was high at around 50 percent, but 91 percent at Harvard? Cornell A&S rate is only about 20 percent.
 

CSoup

Senior member
Jan 9, 2002
565
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Another thing is that curving it so that grades at all schools fall on the same normal distribution with 2.7 as the average GPA is not really fair either since a person who attended the easy school would get lets say a 3.8 when at a harder school the same person would get a 2.7. Makes GPA a very bad indicator (not that it is a good indicator anyways). They should just abolish GPA totally since it has great variance and thus is not a good predictor.
 

My sis was telling me something along that line. She was recommending a law school for me, though. She said, "if you do decide to go to law school, don't even waste your time applying to the no-name schools. Apply to Ivy League schools and wait for a year if you have to. They have the most relaxing atmosphere; their work is so easy and they don't give grades at all. All you have is a pass or no pass."

So, that's what I'm up to for my M.S. and law school. :D

"GPA, along with SAT scores, are just another stupid number that people give more importance to then they should."

So true, Shadowedge! I learned not to give much regards to grades and SAT scores long time ago, though! :D
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,879
10,690
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My alma mater, Swarthmore, is about as academically challenging as they come. You get more work than you can possibly do, which I was told is done on purpose to force a student to prioritize as best he/she can.

In many of my classes, NO ONE got an "A". A prof once told me that an "A" is for extra special work only, and rarely given. We even had t-shirts that said, "Anywhere Else It Would Have Been An "A". This is at a school where the median SAT is well over 1450, and where everyone was a big cheese in their high school/ prep school.

Class size is tiny, and you definitely can't run and can't hide. After the intro classes, my class size ranged from 7 to 15, all taught exclusively by a prof -- not one damn TA on the entire campus.

True fact -- they had to close the library down at 6pm on Saturday nights to FORCE the students out into some kind of personal life.

I was friends with a girl who had transferred from Princeton. She said Princeton undergrad was a joke compared to Swarthmore. She said there was easily a one and a half grade difference in grade inflation between the two, ie, an "A" at Princeton was a "C+" at Swarthmore.

In my freshman year, I roomed next to a sophomore who had a strong interest in Archaeology. Swarthmore is a small school, 900 total students then, about 1,200 now, so there was only a combined Sociology/Anthropology department. We have a co-operative arrangement with our sister schools, Haverford and Bryn Mawr, as well as with the University of Pennsylvania (Ivy league) so that students can take courses at any of the schools. My friend and I were both taking the intro Soc/Anthro 101 at Swarthmore, while he was simultaneously taking a GRADUATE LEVEL Anthro course at Penn.

Now, folks, this isn't a third hand story. I saw this with my own eyes. He handed in the same term paper for both courses. He got an "A" for the grad level course at Penn, and a "C" for the same paper in the intro undergrad course at Swarthmore! He also said that the Penn course's final exam was a joke, with mostly true/false and fill in the blank questions. At Swarthmore, I never once had any exam that had even a single true/false or fill in the blank question in my entire time there!

In fact, somewhere I still have the final exam for that Soc/Anthor 101 intro course. It was taught by a team of three professors, all of which contributed essay questions to the exam. I have it because of Prof. Steven Piker. We all knew which question was his. This is no lie!!!! The question itself was 4/5ths of a page long, single effing spaced. That's right, just the question!! This was an INTRO course, friends!! Some day, when I find it again, I'll transcribe it here for your own personal astoundment!!

One last story: Due to school district consolidation, I went to a really rough and tumble high school my last two years. 2,200 kids in three grades. ALL the bathrooms except the two nearest the principle's office and main entrance were permanently locked by the time I got there, because they's been physically destroyed and because too many poor bastards had had the sh@t beaten out of them in one. There was a fight in school or on the grounds just about every day, no exaggeration.

Ridley High. Our big claim to fame was that our football and our wrestling teams never lost. I once watched as our wrestling coach went up into the stands at an away meet and THREW a heckler down off the bleachers and then started to beat the sh@t out of him before we pulled him off. Other schools in the area hated us with a passion. 15,000 people would show up for the Thanksgiving football game. I, personally, never went to ONE.

At Swarthmore College at the time, our football team never won. Consequently, only about 15-25 fans would show up at any one game. I went to every single home game, and we had a gas. We even had an intellectual football cheer: Repel them, repel them, make them relinquish the ball!

Thank you, and good night.
 

FrontlineWarrior

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2000
4,905
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<< Nope, the Ivys are highly over-rated, and here are the most over-rated Ivys:

Harvard, U. Penn, Brown, and Dartmouth.

Princeton and Yale are excellent schools.

But, here are, hands down, the best (and most difficult) academic schools in the country (in no particular order):

Cal Tech, MIT, U. of Chicago, Berkeley, Harvey Mudd, and Rice.
>>



That's a good list. My sis went to Harvey Mudd and that's an insane ass school. Doesn't Swarthmore have a reputation for being tough also? That's definitely the image they tried to project when I was applying to college.
 

joohang

Lifer
Oct 22, 2000
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Grades are always a problem.

Just a quick example:

At UBC, 85% is considered an A and 90% an A+. If a student achieves an 85% average, he/she is granted with free tuition for one year.

85% on a Science course is actually quite possible. It is VERY DIFFICULT in Arts courses, however. Professors rarely give anyone anything higher than an A-. You must be very exceptional to get an A, which is merely around 85%. A+ is almost never given.

Not saying that Science courses are any easier, but it is more possible to achieve an A-average on Science courses at UBC for the same amount of effort than it is with Arts courses.
 

AaronP

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
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I think that most of the Big Ten schools give just as good of education as the Ivy League schools.
 

RudeBoie

Platinum Member
Feb 28, 2000
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This kind of thing follows virtually all private schools.

Parents don't want to be paying 30k for their kids to be getting C-'s

Unlike here at Cal, where 2K doesn't seem to get us any A's
Instead, we get the right to earn our A's (I'm not sure I like that either :p ).

That's why I'm telling my sister to go to Stanford (easier said than done of course)
 

LanEvoVI

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2001
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heh...I'd just like to add that Cooper Union in NYC is one ridiculously hard school to get a degree from...
 

Jfur

Diamond Member
Jul 9, 2001
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don't forget another inflation-infested and $$$$ grubbing instituion: USC (undergrad)
 
Jul 12, 2001
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all i gots to say is Johns Hopkins makes u work for any grade there. You take a class "easy" and you will end up with a C if your lucky. Especially if you are an engineer, but when u graduate you are ready for anything.

 

nitrousninja

Golden Member
Jun 21, 2000
1,095
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Most Ivy league have you paying for the name just like department stores. The whole thing is insane, if you tell someone that you went to Harvard they say "OHHHH" and really don't know why they do it. College is what you put into it anyway. Thats why most employers aren't too worried about grades as long as they aren't below a certain level.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
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hmm.. reminds me of two people on my volleyball team three years ago.. i was a sophmore with mostly seniors.. and 3 of them happened to be in the top 2% of their class... one went to university of illinois, one went to swarthmore, and one went to grinell... all 3 are totally into education... but... man o man.. the two that went to swarthmore and grinell built up the biggest egotistical wall around them that its sick... i couldnt even talk to them because they'd basiclly outword me in a discussion and badger me for thinking differently then them.. and these were friends and teamates of mine..
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
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<< Actually it is not hard to get in if daddy spells his last name K-E-N-N-E-D-Y.



To McPhreak
you forgot:

yuir
(cannot tell if it is a contraction or not - you tell me)

Used by people living north of Hadrian's Wall. Ex. When you use this word, it means yuir Scottish!
>>



Or Bush for that matter.
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
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<< Or Bush for that matter. >>



I believe the Bushies are Yale. You'd need a few dozen helium tanks to inflate Dubbya's grades to respectable though.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
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What's all this Ivy League bashing? Engineering at Cornell was worth the money. All the nice equipment and faculty, our own nanofabrication and packaging facility. Of course, if you major in arts and humanities, it's a waste of money no matter where you go, unless you go to law or med school after that, in which case the thing you want to get out of your undergrad is a high GPA.
Best advice my HS teacher ever gave me: Don't major in something stupid :D
 

Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
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I can only comment on my alma mater U of Michigan but it's engineering school was nuts. All the classes I took before the 400-level centered a curve with an average of between a 2.3 (C+) and a 3.0 (B) and this kept up despite weeding out many of the slackers in the 100-level courses. So basically there's classes full of overachievers competing for the top quartile (A- and above). But it's a great education- you can't name a fortune 500 company worth its salt that doesn't recruit heavily from U of M, and grad school admissions look upon Michigan grads very favorably because of its difficulty.
 

Novgrod

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2001
1,142
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Before everybody complains more, don't forget that most people won't learn much of value no matter how hard you try to force it down their collective throat. The University of Chicago is no exception; there are many, many people here who haven't learned much of anything.

People learn because they want to know something. It seems to me they're most likely to learn this through association with people who already know something of merit, or sometimes through the classroom.

Don't forget that some of America's Best and Brightest were almost exclusively self-educated (franklin, to a degree all the founders). The problem is in schools that suck the desire to learn out of people :)
 

manuelku

Platinum Member
Nov 10, 1999
2,299
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I think that UC Berkeley is the best school. And yea, I mean public school.
Oh well, I should've gone there but my grades were quite..... Ended up going to some sh*tty college.. San Jose State... at least I can get a job pretty easily in the silicon valley.:frown:
 

CichliSuite

Senior member
Jan 31, 2001
822
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Grade inflation has affected many colleges, but it is clearly out of kilter at Harvard.
I think most liberal arts schools are much tougher than the ivies and other big universities. My alma mater, Vassar, is by no means a Swarthmore, but we sure had a helluva workload - more so than my brother at Penn.


With law school the same problem arises.
Yale - hands down the most prestigious of law schools, there is no grading system. A pass-fail is all that is given, and students are often having a beer the day before exams. Many firms, when recruiting, have admitted to looking at undergraduate transcripts when deciding among Yaleys, since there is no other way to tell them apart.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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I'm glad the Boston Globe wasn't too scared to mention that Harvard's admission of blacks and other minorities due to 'social promotion' policies were rampant during the same time. After all, Harvard HAS been the central hotbed of social promotion and affirmative action advocacy for 30 years and now they're reaping the rewards of lowering academic standards so "no child is left behind".

I say 'scared' because Yale professor John Lott did a study several years ago finding affirmative action policies which put race and diversity over substance like qualification of the applicant has measurably affected the caliber of recruits in many city police and fire departments. Many cities even went as far as accepting minority applicants with serious criminal records, for which whites would automatically be excluded. Lott was immediately branded a racist and was alleged to have said "blacks and women can't be good police officers", which was not the conclusion of his study nor was it remotely implied.

There is a risk in exposing the lies of the left, since they are masters at having people labeled as 'racists'.

 

darkshadow1

Senior member
Nov 2, 2000
460
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Uhh...I go to Penn and don't think it's very easy...

I mean, with any school it's possible to skirt through with easy courses...but I'm pretty dang sure Penn can be quite challenging (but rewarding) if you want. :p

And for the comparison of Swarthmore and Penn, although you might be right in that classes like that are indeed easier here, one anthro class is not a good indicator of how tough it can be here...Wharton and Engineering here is pretty good proof of that.

Penn's not overrated...half the time people don't know that Penn is an Ivy. :D
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
572
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<< Before everybody complains more, don't forget that most people won't learn much of value no matter how hard you try to force it down their collective throat. The University of Chicago is no exception; there are many, many people here who haven't learned much of anything. >>

This is true. Even in the worse inner-city high schools, you will find kids who are pulling 4.0 GPA. If someone is motivated to learn and has a good work ethic, I don't care where they go they are going to get a good education. There is no law that says a student must ONLY do the minimum expected of them.

Schools shouldn't spend an inordinate amount of time and resources dragging unmotivated students kicking and screaming to graduation. If a kid doesn't want to learn, then that's their choice and they will have to live with it.

I was unmotivated in high school, but the knowledge was there and available had I been thirsty for it. This is no different in 'disadvantaged' schools, its just that there is a convenient excuse for poor academic performance (we need more money!).