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Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
jackstar7 said:
You injected true or false into this. I think the more precise wording would be do they see the claim as credible or not. Credible claims are investigated (in theory).

Advocate away. I'm not stopping you. I think you're missing the forest for a very few trees, but whatever.

In your example, you immediately did all the investigating. You examined the evidence and make a conclusion. The threat is credible from the bloody individual.

Investigation, certainly, but then you're saying that people should not speak out? How do you stop them from doing so? What if they feel compelled to warn others about the person they are accusing?

You bring up rape, by the way. This movement is about the whole range of unwanted behavior from people in power, be it subtle or explicitly violent or abusive. Why is it important to you to single out rape?
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That's fine but they should be held accountable for their actions.
 
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Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
realibrad said:
That is my point. What Jack has done is to side with the victim and sacrifice the accused perp. I say sacrifice because what Jack wants is the presumption of guilt until that person has been proved to be innocent. The problem is that there are times when there is not enough evidence to prove guilt or innocence. So, in that he is saying that legally you dont find them guilty, but, socially they would be guilty. That is why he is assuming this guy is horrible, because of the presumption of guilt.

The reason he is doing this is because the alleged victim has been through assault. He wants the burden of things like an investigation to not have to fall on the alleged victim. The problem is that he then shifts the burden onto the accused legally and or socially. That is what I disagree with.
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This doesn't even make logical sense. I've had debates with someone online where he made a claim of fact and had a problem when I told him to provide links to support his position. Somehow I was supposed to go find evidence of his assertion. Sorry but that's not how it works. You make a claim of abuse, rape, etc. it's on you to provide evidence to support that not on the accused to prove it didn't happen.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Younigue said:
For that matter why is it more important to you that potential victims be scrutinized than potential perpetrators. You have it backwards.
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Because the presumption of innocence is deeply important to a well functioning society.

People are shitty. They hurt, steal, murder, rape, lie. It would be a fallacy to assume everyone is telling the truth all the time. Further, we are complicated and what one person thinks may not be what the other thinks. Some feel that if you lie about being in the military, and then its rape because they had sex with you when you were given consent for a lie.

So, this is why we came up with the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof lies with the accuser, and not the accused. It means that some guilty will go free to protect the innocent.

Perfection being the enemy of the good was brought up, and it fits here. Its not perfect because it means a rapist might go free, but, its better than putting innocent people in jail.

Now, Jack is not saying this should be how the courts work. He is saying that this is how society should view things. The problem is that the incentives and outcomes are much the same.

This does not mean I think alleged victims should be out in the cold. That is generally what happens too often, and that is cruel and not optimal. We can do things to support alleged victims to try and lessen the burden when they do come forward. That I hope is the big benefit of metoo.
 
jackstar7

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Hardwick is even getting back his show on NBC (who is deferring to the AMC "investigation") so I hope all you dudes worried about consequences for Chris are all quelled. The system worked(?) again.
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Younigue said:
LOL! Not by that much. I've known many loud adult in my time.
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I went to a adult only resort for a wedding a few months back. We realized by the 2nd morning how quiet things were.

You don't know harmony until you are at a resort and you only have to have the volume set to 11 for porn because you dont have to drown out children. Truly bliss.
 
Younigue

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
realibrad said:
I went to a adult only resort for a wedding a few months back. We realized by the 2nd morning how quiet things were.

You don't know harmony until you are at a resort and you only have to have the volume set to 11 for porn because you dont have to drown out children. Truly bliss.
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I'm about to find out! This year our vacation will be child free! Very much looking forward to it!
 
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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Younigue said:
I'm about to find out! This year our vacation will be child free! Very much looking forward to it!
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Don't get me wrong, I love kids and expect to start trying next year. But, they love to run through the halls screaming.

Its just nice.
 
Younigue

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
realibrad said:
Don't get me wrong, I love kids and expect to start trying next year. But, they love to run through the halls screaming.

Its just nice.
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Love kids. But I have always been happy I couldn't have any of my own (due to an accident I had when I was 2 that caused enough damage to prevent me from ever having children).

I really have no room to complain about vacations with kids running around the pool and beach but I'm still looking forward to beach time with no screaming, misbehaving kids around.

I don't watch porn so I don't have to worry about the volume.
 
Younigue

Younigue

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2017
5,888
1,447
106
realibrad said:
So like, then what do you watch when you are folding laundry or doing the dishes?
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I listen to music.

Do you also watch it when you pee, take out the trash, brush your teeth, darn your socks, when you're watching tv?
 
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