HardOCP Crossfire review up

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=OTMwLDEy

When CrossFire works well, it does provide a large increase in performance as we have seen. However, there are bugs that still plague CrossFire. There is the problem we experienced with Quake 4 regarding the refresh rate, and there were some games where we could actually see the game flicker slightly.

As I predicted, Crossfire has it's issues still.
. . .

What a MESS.

a "mess" that seems to provide some advantages for ATI . . . HardOCP concludes:

On the single card side, we didn?t have the X1800 XT provide any better experience over the GeForce 7800 GTX 512 . . . when we compare dual cards, CrossFire seems to creep up the ranks. The GeForce 7800 GTX 512 in SLI provides a better experience in most games, but in three of the games, the Radeon X1800 XT CrossFire solution provided a better experience?Half-Life 2: Lost Coast, Battlefield 2, and EverQuest II. It seems that when CrossFire works, it works very well . . .
CrossFire is getting better, however. ATI has now overcome the resolution and refresh rate limit and we hope they continue to mature CrossFire.


The Bottom Line:

The bottom line is that the Radeon X1800 XT is still playing catch up on the single card front with a single GeForce 7800 GTX 512. But since the GeForce 7800 GTX 512 is so scarce right now, that point may be moot. We have seen now what an X1800 XT CrossFire platform can do and it does hold its own well against the fastest GPUs that NVIDIA has to offer. It is playing catch up some, but it is catching up. In a few cases, CrossFire is winning.

What "mess"?
:Q

just your interpretation of it is a mess

and I predected - when xfire was FIRST announced - that there would be BUGS . . . what SURPRISES me is how FAST ati is addressing them . . . i think nVidia has alreadylost its [huge] headstart with SLI

r580 xfire is around the corner and i expect it will be even more mature

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Rollo why do you feel it nessisary to selectively quote the article, the conclusion says many positive things about Crossfire none of which appear in your quoting.

The Bottom Line:
The bottom line is that the Radeon X1800 XT is still playing catch up on the single card front with a single GeForce 7800 GTX 512. But since the GeForce 7800 GTX 512 is so scarce right now, that point may be moot. We have seen now what an X1800 XT CrossFire platform can do and it does hold its own well against the fastest GPUs that NVIDIA has to offer. It is playing catch up some, but it is catching up. In a few cases, CrossFire is winning.

The negatives in that review seemed to outweigh the positives Fiery.

After reading that, and the Guru 3D review, I don't consider X1800XT Crossfire a usable solution at this point. People about to spend $1000 on a multi card solution need to know this.

The X1800XT, on the other hand, I think is a GREAT deal for someone looking to spend $500 on a video card.

So give us the whole conclusion to the article and highlight the negative points if you want. If it's overwhelmingly negative, we'll see that for ourselves. To go through and pick out all the negative comments and only quote those, well that's just showing what a petty, biased individual you are.

Edit: Didn't you start another thread almost identical to this about a week ago? heh :roll:

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: fierydemise
Rollo why do you feel it nessisary to selectively quote the article, the conclusion says many positive things about Crossfire none of which appear in your quoting.

The Bottom Line:
The bottom line is that the Radeon X1800 XT is still playing catch up on the single card front with a single GeForce 7800 GTX 512. But since the GeForce 7800 GTX 512 is so scarce right now, that point may be moot. We have seen now what an X1800 XT CrossFire platform can do and it does hold its own well against the fastest GPUs that NVIDIA has to offer. It is playing catch up some, but it is catching up. In a few cases, CrossFire is winning.

The negatives in that review seemed to outweigh the positives Fiery.

After reading that, and the Guru 3D review, I don't consider X1800XT Crossfire a usable solution at this point. People about to spend $1000 on a multi card solution need to know this.

The X1800XT, on the other hand, I think is a GREAT deal for someone looking to spend $500 on a video card.

Agreed, Crossfire at this point in time is not worth it. Maybe ATi will iron out some of the bugs with R580 and then have a very stable Crossfire platform by the time R600 rolls around. However for the vast majority of us, Crossfire/SLI are irrelvant since we don't plan to go that route and single card performance matters the most. But for that 1% that want the absolute best dual card solution at this point in time, SLI is the way to go. Maybe ATi can turn things around with a few driver releases, they have been vastly improving in quality lately.

 

[Ackmed]

A little strange that they didnt use the 5.13's, that were available three weeks ago. Especially since they are the first driver to support X1800 Crossfire, and have several fixes.

ATI CrossFire? allows for multiple Graphics Processing Units (GPUs) to be placed within a single PC, to provide superior gaming performance. The Catalyst® 5.13 software suite is the first Catalyst® to provide ATI CrossFire? support. CrossFire? support is available when an ATI Radeon® X1800 CrossFire? Edition product is installed with another Radeon® X1800 product. Further information on ATI CrossFire? can be found at: http://www.ati.com/technology/crossfire/faq.htm

 

[Nirach]

I must admit, at the moment Crossfire is not performing as well as SLI.

Personally, though, I doubt that anyone's going to get much of anything good with Crossfire at the moment. I hope the next batch will put an end to msot of the issues available and finally bring it to a good contender for SLI. At the moment, Crossfire is limping behind SLI, granted there is an age difference, but the amount of problems it's suffering are just.. Well. Astounding in some cases.

As for people comparing reviews, all well and good, but the rest of the system is usually a tad different, which probably contributes something to it. Of course you're going to get Crossfire better than SLI if you use a POS SLI setup, and visa versa.

A cursory glance through the specs from DriverHeaven and Tech Report indicates that TR were using double the RAM to DH. TR were using a 4800 X2, when DH were using an FX55. Slight differences they may be, but I will bet any money that the fact that the major componants being different will have contributed somewhat to each reviews results.

Until I get Crossfire, I can't comment on it's ease of install, but I can't see much trouble being had with it. Though, I've nothing to compare to it not having installed SLI.

No one, ATi fanboy or not, can deny that there are huge cockups with Crossfire. The upside is that it's new, and still being fine tuned, and should be working well by mid year.
What we'll get, however, is yet to be known.

I look forward to the next lot of Crossfire reviews, hopefully containing some of the fixes that it sorely needs to be a contender big enough to drag users from SLI.

 

[StrangerGuy]

I don't see the point in worshipping GPU companies as gods.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: StrangerGuy
I don't see the point in worshipping GPU companies as gods.

That is an interesting "point". Personally, I don't even "worship" Gods as "Gods", are you using hyperbole?

Anyway, the bottom line is I didn't feel there were enough positives in the article about Crossfire to merit posting them. The fact that it was better on three of the games to me seemed far outweighed by all the negatives: hard install, flickering games, unusable refresh rates, etc..

While SLI may have had issues such as these at launch, I never saw them, and I started using SLI 3 months after launch. (it's now three months after Crossfire launch, and it was supposed to launch many months earlier)

What it boils down to is Crossfire isn't at a point anyone can really consider it, what it offers in terms of higher framerates is hardly worth all the problems. (IMO)

 

[nitromullet]

What it boils down to is Crossfire isn't at a point anyone can really consider it, what it offers in terms of higher framerates is hardly worth all the problems. (IMO)

I have to agree with you on this. Another interesting phenomenon is all the people talking about R580 Xfire. So far, we've seen R4xx and R520, and both has had their share of problems. People seem to forget that these solutions cost money. Anyone who bought R4xx Xfire pretty much got shafted, and would have to replace BOTH of their video cards to upgrade to a better functioning Xfire. This is definitely an advantage of a driver oriented solution, as opposed to ATI's reliance on the composting engine on the master card. AFAIK, any improvements made to SLI drivers pretty much cover all SLI compatible cards. Personally, I don't want to spend over $1k to be able to test ATI's latest concoction with the option to replace both cards should it have issues. At that price range you should be getting a complete, functioning product.

 

[Nirach]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

What it boils down to is Crossfire isn't at a point anyone can really consider it, what it offers in terms of higher framerates is hardly worth all the problems. (IMO)

I have to agree with you on this. Another interesting phenomenon is all the people talking about R580 Xfire. So far, we've seen R4xx and R520, and both has had their share of problems. People seem to forget that these solutions cost money. Anyone who bought R4xx Xfire pretty much got shafted, and would have to replace BOTH of their video cards to upgrade to a better functioning Xfire. This is definitely an advantage of a driver oriented solution, as opposed to ATI's reliance on the composting engine on the master card. AFAIK, any improvements made to SLI drivers pretty much cover all SLI compatible cards. Personally, I don't want to spend over $1k to be able to test ATI's latest concoction with the option to replace both cards should it have issues. At that price range you should be getting a complete, functioning product.

I think peoples biggest problem with buying the X1800 junk, and the X8xx junk crossfire was they didn't wait. Surely it's common knowledge that new technology is going to have teething troubles, and waiting for reviews should come before spending horrible amounts of cash?

I must commend SLI's reputation for just.. Working.

I agree that for that money a functioning product would be expected, as a bare minimum, which unfortunatly is not often the case with Xfire. Perhaps there is some hope for the next set?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Anyway, the bottom line is I didn't feel there were enough positives in the article about Crossfire to merit posting them. The fact that it was better on three of the games to me seemed far outweighed by all the negatives: hard install, flickering games, unusable refresh rates, etc..

While SLI may have had issues such as these at launch, I never saw them, and I started using SLI 3 months after launch. (it's now three months after Crossfire launch, and it was supposed to launch many months earlier)

What it boils down to is Crossfire isn't at a point anyone can really consider it, what it offers in terms of higher framerates is hardly worth all the problems. (IMO)

if you actually READ the article - without you INTENTION of spreading FUD [as usual] you would see the positives . .. .

ATi is doing a remartkable job of catching up with nVidia's HUGE headstart with SLI . . . only a few "glitchers" and driver support needs to be refined.

As it stands, r520 xfire is a good alternative to SLI . . . r580 will be even more mature

We have seen now what an X1800 XT CrossFire platform can do and it does hold its own well against the fastest GPUs that NVIDIA has to offer. It is playing catch up some, but it is catching up. In a few cases, CrossFire is winning.

and there are NO 512 GTXes available fo SLI
:thumbsdown:

Rollo when it comes to 'spinning' you are THE FUD-master
my hat's off to you
:roll:

 

[Conky]

Typical Hardcop stuff. :roll: They put out an article today, dated January 08, and say that the 5.12 series of Catalyst drivers is the latest when the 5.13's were released on December 21st of last year.

How am I supposed to take Kyle the drunk's review serious when he doesn't even use the latest drivers? Seriously.

:thumbsdown:

 

[Steelski]

STILL NO SUPER AA RESULT..................
Anybody find that strange?

 

[RobertR1]

Except for the external dongle, which might be a bother to some, most issues seems driver related, some of which were likely fixed with 5.13's but for what ever reason, 5.12's were used. It'll be interesting to see how quickly Ati can resolve these issues via drivers.

Since HardOcp is so anal about only testing cards that are available to the general consumer and why use the 7800GTX 512MB??? I can't recall the last time there were 7800GTX 512's for sale except at launch. Surely, they're well aware of this.

I wasn't very active on these forums a year ago but it's safe to assume that rollo wasn't nearly as pro active to point out Sli issues during it's early days, correct?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
Rollo when it comes to 'spinning' you are THE FUD-master
my hat's off to you
:roll:

apoppin:
I assure you my only intent with this post was to reinforce the findings of the users on the H forums 5150Joker linked us to, and the findings in the bizarre "Guru 3d" article.

I think there's enough smoke here to warrant people NOT spending $1000+ on a rig like this, not to mention the stuff that just is what it is, like the horrible default tiling mode that you can't change.

I have no problems whatsoever with X1800s, only X1800Crossfire. I'd feel bad misleading the board if I didn't put a negative slant on my take of that review. Even the guy who wrote it isn't thrilled with Crossfire as evidenced in his forum posts.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: RobertR1
I wasn't very active on these forums a year ago but it's safe to assume that rollo wasn't nearly as pro active to point out Sli issues during it's early days, correct?

I had SLI in it's early days, and the issues were trivial compared to these. Things like doesn't run on Apple WS, Windows 2000, etc..

The worst it had was no WS, and I don't have WS so it never effected me.

 

[John Reynolds]

As Anthony "Reverend" Tan so succinctly stated a few years ago: "The problem with fanboys is that they don't know they are just that."

And the [H.] article has caused what one poster at [H.] has described as a mutiny, because it's come under such heavy criticism by the site's readers.

 

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by: RobertR1
Since HardOcp is so anal about only testing cards that are available to the general consumer and why use the 7800GTX 512MB??? I can't recall the last time there were 7800GTX 512's for sale except at launch. Surely, they're well aware of this.

Of course they are, and I tried pinning Kyle down to an honest answer at B3D when he talked about refusing to review the X1800 XT until it was available, warning him this standard would bite him on the ass big-time if he didn't follow it for every last single piece of review kit his site receives in the future. The majority of the history of announcements for PC hardware has been with subsequent availability, and it's the height of foolishness to change your review publication timeframes due to one "hard" launch.

But, hey, we're talking about a site that proclaims to the world it won't be the bitch of any PR dept. and then turns around and posts comments critical of one company's part(s) that were actually written by a competitor's PR personnel and claimed them as their own words (and, yes, this did happen at [H ] last October). Stop and think about just how wrong that is for a minute. For me, that was the worst piece of so-called online journalism I've ever seen, the absolute most unprofessional act in all my years of web surfing, and my e-mail scolding the guilty person was, curiously enough, never replied to, though this person almost always replies to my e-mails (such as when I told him how to get AA working in EverQuest 2 for all graphics boards, something he could've taught himself with a simple Google search).

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: John Reynolds
As Anthony "Reverend" Tan so succinctly stated a few years ago: "The problem with fanboys is that they don't know they are just that."

And now that you know, how do you feel?

And the [H.] article has caused what one poster at [H.] has described as a mutiny, because it's come under such heavy criticism by the site's readers.

So unless a review says "Crossfire is Awesome" it's wrong? :roll:

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Steelski
STILL NO SUPER AA RESULT..................
Anybody find that strange?

No, because then SLI would lose miserably, and HOCP just cant let that happen.

But at least one other site reviewed super AA so I already know how it performs
http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q4/radeon-x1800-crossfire/index.x?pg=12

 

[John Reynolds]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: John Reynolds
And the [H.] article has caused what one poster at [H.] has described as a mutiny, because it's come under such heavy criticism by the site's readers.

So unless a review says "Crossfire is Awesome" it's wrong?

The criticisms seem to be stemming from use of the 5.12s, the delay of the article itself, and the use of the 512MB GTXs after the site's recent stance on product availability. Plus the $$ cost difference between the boards used.

Me, I'm not a big fan of dual PEG solutions. Too much heat, noise, and cost for too little linear performance scaling, and too much to invest in a single generation of parts when the graphics industry is still on such a fast schedule. Let things slow down to a 18 month architecture cycle and I might reconsider.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: Nirach

Originally posted by: nitromullet

What it boils down to is Crossfire isn't at a point anyone can really consider it, what it offers in terms of higher framerates is hardly worth all the problems. (IMO)

I have to agree with you on this. Another interesting phenomenon is all the people talking about R580 Xfire. So far, we've seen R4xx and R520, and both has had their share of problems. People seem to forget that these solutions cost money. Anyone who bought R4xx Xfire pretty much got shafted, and would have to replace BOTH of their video cards to upgrade to a better functioning Xfire. This is definitely an advantage of a driver oriented solution, as opposed to ATI's reliance on the composting engine on the master card. AFAIK, any improvements made to SLI drivers pretty much cover all SLI compatible cards. Personally, I don't want to spend over $1k to be able to test ATI's latest concoction with the option to replace both cards should it have issues. At that price range you should be getting a complete, functioning product.

I think peoples biggest problem with buying the X1800 junk, and the X8xx junk crossfire was they didn't wait. Surely it's common knowledge that new technology is going to have teething troubles, and waiting for reviews should come before spending horrible amounts of cash?

I must commend SLI's reputation for just.. Working.

I agree that for that money a functioning product would be expected, as a bare minimum, which unfortunatly is not often the case with Xfire. Perhaps there is some hope for the next set?

Hmmmm, interesting reply.... That is exactly the issue, unless ATI can fix these issues on the driver level the only other option is for Xfire owners to purchase new (expensive) gear in the hopes that it fixes issues. Thus far, SLI has not relied on having to purchase new cards to fix any of the issues. The v-sync issue and widescreen support were both resolved with new drivers for the 6 and 7-series cards. ATI, conversely resolved the 1600x1200 60Hz limitation by improving the hardware. Anyone who owns dual X850XT's in a Xfire rig (does someone like this exist?) is stuck with that limitation.

 

[KeepItRed]

Originally posted by: Rollo
I have no problems whatsoever with X1800s, only X1800Crossfire.

I thought you said your not going to buy the X1800 series. So...you bought one?

 

[galperi1]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: John Reynolds
As Anthony "Reverend" Tan so succinctly stated a few years ago: "The problem with fanboys is that they don't know they are just that."

And now that you know, how do you feel?

And the [H.] article has caused what one poster at [H.] has described as a mutiny, because it's come under such heavy criticism by the site's readers.

So unless a review says "Crossfire is Awesome" it's wrong? :roll:

I don't think he means that...

how about...

Crossfire is average and still has some kinks to it, however given the availability (i.e., rarely in stock since launch) and price of the 512MB GTX, the crossfire may be a better consideration if you are purchasing hardware at THIS time.

512 GTX - haven't been seen in stock for how long?
Price - at least $699 per card

X1800XT
Master - $624 Monarch Computer - In stock
Slave - $479 Microcenter - In Stock

 

[RobertR1]

Originally posted by: John Reynolds

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: John Reynolds
And the [H.] article has caused what one poster at [H.] has described as a mutiny, because it's come under such heavy criticism by the site's readers.

So unless a review says "Crossfire is Awesome" it's wrong?

The criticisms seem to be stemming from use of the 5.12s, the delay of the article itself, and the use of the 512MB GTXs after the site's recent stance on product availability. Plus the $$ cost difference between the boards used.

Me, I'm not a big fan of dual PEG solutions. Too much heat, noise, and cost for too little linear performance scaling, and too much to invest in a single generation of parts when the graphics industry is still on such a fast schedule. Let things slow down to a 18 month architecture cycle and I might reconsider.

These are the exact same reason I do not prefer Dual GPU solutions for the present time or even recommend them to anyone.

 

[akugami]

I'll be honest, I'm a fan of ATI but not a fanboy. So while I slightly favor ATI because of better price/performance with the 9x00 series and the X800 series, it doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what's on the other side of the fence. It also means I'm not going to blindly castrate one company over another because of favoritism. I'll likely buy an R580, pending performance and feature info on the G71.

Whoever didn't expect Crossfire to have problems is an idiot. However, these problems are being pimped like crazy to paint ATI in a bad light by the fanboys. I don't remember nearly the same amount of negativity surrounding SLI's release as with Crossfire. IMHO, I think ATI underestimated the demand for SLI from the extreme performance folks and Crossfire was their kneejerk response for it. SLI seemed to be built from the ground up for dual video cards and nVidia has expanded on it to be quad video card capable for the super rich as evidenced by the recent Dell demo system.

SLI had some pretty major problems like many games not being supported by SLI or showing very little gains and the infamous dual monitor problem. Crossfire is showing different problems but pretty major as well. But what can you expect from new technologies? ATI does seem to be improving Crossfire but it's not there yet. nVidia built the 6x00 and 7x00 series of cards with SLI in mind and it shows. ATI's is a kneejerk response and it shows.

But as others have said, and it's not a one time thing, any time something negative about ATI comes up, Rollo is the first to know about it. Any time something positive for nVidia comes up, Rollo is the first to know about it. Any time something positive for ATI comes up, Rollo is the last to know about it. Any time something negative for nVidia comes up, Rollo is the last to know about it. Or at least that's what I gather from reading these forums for well over a year (I was a lurker for a good while). Let's not forget all the selective quotes that always seems to paint ATI in a bad light and nVidia in a good light. Way to be fair and balanced Rollo.

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: John Reynolds
As Anthony "Reverend" Tan so succinctly stated a few years ago: "The problem with fanboys is that they don't know they are just that."

And now that you know, how do you feel?

And the [H.] article has caused what one poster at [H.] has described as a mutiny, because it's come under such heavy criticism by the site's readers.

So unless a review says "Crossfire is Awesome" it's wrong? :roll:

First, John Reynolds didn't post anything that can be considered fanboyish, he was merely pointing out some problems with HardOCP's testing of the video cards in question as well as Kyle backtracking on his own words. Something that's noticed by HardOCP's own readership on their forums. If that's considered being a fanboy...well...guess John's a fanboy.

Second, for you to call someone else a fanboy is rediculous. It's the pot calling the kettle black. I've seen very fanboyish as well as flammatory posts from you. Such as you criticising ATI because their R520 and R580 "only" has 16 pipes. LINK That's just one example, I'm not going to go back and cite every single source.


And if you have a rebuttal against what I've written in this post, PM. I'm not going into a prolonged public hissy fit with anyone. Not worth it, if you wanna argue with me, do it in PM. If you post in this thread I won't respond to it because this is my first and last post in this thread.