superstition
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- Feb 2, 2008
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I just hope transistors die as fast as possible
How about more investment into things like GaInAs nanowires? Potential terahertz speeds.
I just hope transistors die as fast as possible
It's crazy that a SoC that is not much smaller than a $350 Intel CPU only costs that much. But this sort of makes my point, who actually expects Apply SoC costs to rise every generation? Because that is what has to happen if cost per transistor is going to stop falling. Because we know each new SoC is going to have significantly more transistors. They always do.
Roland00Address said:Thus to sum it all up, the soc / cpu costs for Apple is anywhere from $22 to $45 dollars plus an additional $15 for modem.
sm625 said:It's crazy that a SoC that is not much smaller than a $350 Intel CPU only costs that much. But this sort of makes my point, who actually expects Apply SoC costs to rise every generation? Because that is what has to happen if cost per transistor is going to stop falling. Because we know each new SoC is going to have significantly more transistors. They always do.
Apple, though, made a bunch of boneheaded decisions before Jobs' ouster and during.There are fundamental reasons that occurred in history made that situation possible. Those fundamental reasons occurred both in the recent past (measured in years) but also several decades ago (stuff from the 1980s to 2000s)
Those fundamental reasons have changed since then, and now the market is beginning the slow process of recalibrating the price per performance of many things related to technology not just CPU prices.
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Take for instance the Apple Newton Project is probably over the long term the most successful device of apple's history. (newton started development in 87, first product shipped was 93, last product shipped was 98). Yet the individual Apple Newton Devices were complete and utter failures.
Why was it the most important and successful device of apple's history?
Because without the Apple Newton we would never have Acorn RISC Machine. Acorn RISC Machine was a company that was a joint venture formed from 3 other companies
1) Apple who wanted a product that largely did not exist at the time.
2) Acorn Computers (the british Apple that unlike Apple largely failed), who had a unique collection of cpu design technology / patents / ideas. [Very brief Acorn Computers Timeline here](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...43162/History-of-ARM-from-Acorn-to-Apple.html) wikipedia has far more history
3) and VLSI Technology who specialzied in making integrated circuits and custom integrated circuits for specific companies.
These 3 companies made a spin off company / collaboration in 1990 that was named Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. Apples share was 43% of Advanced RISC Machines Ltd for 2.5 million dollars.
8 years later this private company spin off did an IPO and became a public company in 1998. This company renamed itself from Advanced RISC Machines ltd to ARM Holdings.
And most people call the company ARM Holdings by the same name ARM as its main product.
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In other words Apple due to lack of small circuits at the time that could be used in the first PDA, well Apple had to make them, and this led to the foundation of the future cellphone and all this "mobile technology" where computers and sensors are in your pocket instead on some desk.
Aka accidents through history led to the starting groundwork to a company that fundamentally has changed the world about a decade after their IPO.
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Oh one last bit, this was during the years that Apple and Jobs had nothing to do with each other.
1985 CEO John Sculley outs Jobs,
Jobs re-enters Apple in Dec 1996 when Apple buys NeXT, becomes the apple ceo 7 months later in July 1997,
At the time in July 1997 apple was in financial ruins, it an interview many years later Steve Jobs claimed at the time he became CEO in July 1997 Apple was only 3 months away from bankruptcy. Besides money problems, Apple was losing support of its developers and many people were wondering why would you invest your personal finances buying hardware and software in an OS where many people was not sure it would be around soon after. (Remember we were still in the very expensive 3k pc phase)
August 1997, only a month after Jobs becomes CEO, Microsoft invests 150 million into Apple and announces some of their products such as Microsoft Office will come to the Macs, and a 5 year partnership with apple and microsoft with things like patents. It is often argued this 150 million dollars investment of Microsoft into Apple is what kept the lights on. Now do understand that Microsoft did not due this out of generosity at the time they were fighting a several year battle over things like patents in the court and during this time in 1997 the companies decided to stop fighting in court and they came to an arrangement.
Now during Job's new apple tenture as ceo, he began to sell the shares of ARM Holdings that Apple still owned from the late 90s and early 2000s Apple sold it shares for a total of $792 million (remember at the time of Jobs coming back to Apple as CEO was mid 1997, and the ARM IPO was April 1998).
Now selling these ARM Holding Shares were partly responsible for keeping the lights on with Apple and Apple has made billions of money since then, so do not shed a tear of hindsight of Apple selling its shares of ARM Holding during the first few years of ARM holding being a public company.
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So this whole little saga I told about how Apple is the reason why ARM exists today, and how the newton was not a lost cause for Apple made up the losts of the newton by selling ARM, and then later on this technology was key for things like the iPod and iPhone...well none of it would be predictable in the late 1980s and we now only see the connections due to the hindsight of history where we now compare the facts on the ground with today to the facts on the ground from several decades ago.
All of the decisions back then made sense, just like how the decisions back then made sense that allowed Intel to gain such a lead on IPC, Fab Technology, Market Share, Profit, etc of the computing revolution for several decades. It is only recently that the fundamentals of the present business have changed so much that you now have Apple with its custom ARM chip competing with the Core M line on performance in small things.
And while Apple does not sell its custom ARM chip as an individual part, competitor arm chips are now getting close enough performance to compete with core M. Products such as
Cortex A72 and soon to be A73s
Samsung's Mongoose own custom ARM implementation, and with
Qualcomm Kyro (seen in the 820) own custom ARM implementation.
Now bring back your original quote again
The ability of Intel to demand you pay that amount of money to have the pleasure of using their cpus is due to accidents of history which at the time were not really accidents but if you were to enter today's world with no knowledge of the past it would seem ludicrous.
It will probably be even more ludicrous in the next few years if Chromebooks take off even more so due to introduction of Android Apps on the Chromebooks and the rise of not on the device computing but instead using Cloud Servers etc for the computing intensive things.
If you multiply the numbers in the OP chart with the 7 Billion Transistors of infamous Nvida offereings it amounts to almost exactly 100 $ cost for the huge NVidia GPU dies. And likely these dense low power processes are quite a bit cheaper than their CPU counterparts.
But FD-SOI is definitely becoming very 'fashionable'. Tons of research and presentations on this can be seen here:Gary Patton of IBM Microelectronics said:The IBM 14nm technology will stay in East Fishkill (Fab 10 now). 14LPE acquired from Samsung is run in Malta plus 14LPP is built off of the 14LPE base and will also run in Malta. 14LPP is the same design rules as 14LPE and offers a 10% to 14% performance improvement over 14LPE. When 28nm was brought up in Malta there was no base to work off of, now the 14nm ramp is leveraging the 28nm experience. Both 14LPE (E for early) and 14LPP (P for performance) are ramping in Malta and have world class yields. 10nm and 7nm development is all being done in Malta.
I asked Gary for his view of FDSOI versus FinFETs. He said he didnt see it as versus. FDSOI body bias is a great capability but FinFETs are better for high-end smart phones and performance and FDSOI is better for low power. Throughout the interview Gary was very poised and confident. He was very interesting to talk to and I would have been happy to have had more time for the discussions.
There are fundamental reasons that occurred in history made that situation possible. Those fundamental reasons occurred both in the recent past (measured in years) but also several decades ago (stuff from the 1980s to 2000s)
Those fundamental reasons have changed since then, and now the market is beginning the slow process of recalibrating the price per performance of many things related to technology not just CPU prices.
Perhaps. I've not read any.Thanks for catching me up on the various of S.Jobs biographies out there.
It shouldn't have been called a Law. I've never heard of a Law being something that can just be temporary. I suppose if it's stated in a manner that makes its definition refer only to the time it applies... But that sounds more like it should be called a Guideline or something.pm said:My thought on all of this has long been that there has always going to be an end to Moore's Law.
It shouldn't have been called a Law. I've never heard of a Law being something that can just be temporary. I suppose if it's stated in a manner that makes its definition refer only to the time it applies... But that sounds more like it should be called a Guideline or something.
My thought on all of this has long been that there has always going to be an end to Moore's Law. In fact, at at 18 month cadence per doubling, you'd have more transistors on a silicon die than there are atoms in the silicon die by 2053. So, everyone always knew this couldn't go on forever - or even for very long - including Gordon Moore himself. But Moore's Law has always been fundamentally about manufacturing cost, not performance, as you can see in his paper (click here) under "Costs and Curves" on the second page. And the problem presently with costs is not silicon itself is running out of atoms to play with but that we are running out of the ability to trick lithography to draw increasing smaller lines using a massive wavelength light source. Once we can solve that problem, we can go back to worries about running out of atoms between the transistor source and drain. But regardless of either of these two issues of light sources or atoms, Moore's Law will end in our lifetimes because this "doubling every 18 months" or even "doubling every two years" can't last another hundred years or we'll have more transistors on a silicon chip than there are atoms in the universe.
If the trend holds, we're looking at our first 100 billion transistor <$500 CPU by 2023. Even if Moore's Law does bend, it is still going to happen by 2025, 2026 at the latest. History has shown that Apple smartphone SoCs are only about 3 years behind this trend. So we're looking at 2026 to 2029 for the first 100 billion transistor Apple iPhone SoC! There is no way Apple is going to be paying the same price per transistor it is paying today. Such an SoC would cost them well over $1000.
If you told me in 2005 that Youtube would become so popular, with people now video taping their entire lives (or photographing with instigram) and now we have video gameplay and commentary as the new thing for the super young tweens I would say no, video would be big but not like that.
So why do you assume it is going to be a phone in 2023? For all you know it could be something like google glass, or an watch, perhaps a watch that projects a small led overlay screen on your arm that you can now type on. We do not know.