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Hamas reiterate it doesnt want peace with israel.

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kylebisme said:
John, please show me a map of what you recognize as the borders of the state of Palestine.
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LocationJordan.svg
 
Common Courtesy said:
Do the Palestinians want a resolution that is peaceful? Do they want a resolution that is one sided?

When they had full control of their destiny, they ignored it. Now that they no longer have control, they complain like a spoiled child. which is fine, but they also act like a spoiled child.
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The question of which deal is one sided really depend on resolving the right to return issue
that still exists today. By Israeli reasoning, they stole it fair and square, but if the right of return is recognized it means Israeli Jews own less than 50% of the land inside of the 1948 borders of Israel itself.

Much Israeli propaganda mileage is extracted from the Arifat refusal to ink the deal negotiated by a series of US Presidents, but ultimately Arifat refused to sign away the right to return in what he felt was a too one sided deal in favor of Israel.

Should we per say conclude that Arifat was wrong to refuse because Israel offers even less today, or will Arifat be later proven correct in some future settlement?

That is the present gamble of both sides Common Courtesy, and maybe later history will later, 20 20 hindsight conclude, Israel should have offered more to induce Arifat to sign.
And instead Israel insisted on a too one sided deal for itself, and will instead repeat far less in the end.

Since no one knows the answer to that question yet, we can only conclude the Israeli propaganda line that Arifat should have signed is based on only a fallacy.
 
kylebisme said:
While I thank you for stepping up to the plate and presenting a map since John is apparently incapable of doing so, that's Jordan there, not Palestine.
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Being that the West Bank belonged to Jordan before the war of '67, and that Jordan is already a home to more than 2 millions Palestinians, and is a Muslim country to boot, I'd say it's a pretty good homeland for the Palestinians.
 
kylebisme said:
No, the West Bank belonged to the people who live there, then and now. Jordan only was illegally occupying it back then, much like Israel is now.
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Good, does the same apply for Spain, Northern Ireland, Chechnya, Cyprus and the Kurds? Or is it only the case when it comes to the Palestinians.

How did you come up with this figure?
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Read about Jordan demographics. Actually most of the Jordanians (like 70-80%) share ancestry with the Palestinians.
 
kylebisme said:
While I thank you for stepping up to the plate and presenting a map since John is apparently incapable of doing so, that's Jordan there, not Palestine.
Click to expand...

Dummy, when you admit that you are lying, I'll play your stupid game. Not recognizing a states border is not the same as not even recognizing a states existence.
 
Originally Posted by kylebisme
While I thank you for stepping up to the plate and presenting a map since John is apparently incapable of doing so, that's Jordan there, not Palestine.
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xj0hnx --
Dummy, when you admit that you are lying, I'll play your stupid game. Not recognizing a states border is not the same as not even recognizing a states existence.
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You should know by now that being truthful is NOt one of Kylebisme`s attributes.
After all he the same 9/11 Kylebisme...rofl
 
I somewhat note all the collected pro Israeli fan clubbers are engaging in short term thinking, can Israel get away with their crap for another few years, or even five years.
Or dare the pro Israeli fan clubbers hope, for another 10 years.

But that may indeed be stinking thinking on the part of pro Israeli fan clubbers, because the present Israeli strategy is unsustainable longer term.
 
Lemon law said:
I somewhat note all the collected pro Israeli fan clubbers are engaging in short term thinking, can Israel get away with their crap for another few years, or even five years.
Or dare the pro Israeli fan clubbers hope, for another 10 years.

But that may indeed be stinking thinking on the part of pro Israeli fan clubbers, because the present Israeli strategy is unsustainable longer term.
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Israel has lasted 60+ years against people that think like you.

The Palestinians have also been in this situation because of people thinking like you. All that does is encourage groups like Hamas to continue their actions believing that the world will back them and their methods vs Israel. And goups like the West Bank to think that the world will cave in on Israel as long as the Palestinians can play the guilt trip.

Logical faith and predictions do not work with the illogical.
 
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Common Courtesy can cite his 60 year figure for Israel but I am going from the point Israel lost all international credibility. Which was probably at Annapolis. As Israel spouts the same ole same ole propaganda almost no one believes anymore.

Of course pro-Israeli fan clubbers eat up Israeli propaganda like soul food from a 5 star restaurant, but the rest of the world is really questioning Israeli reasoning as Israel also goes off the deep end. And like similar periods in history, just one big or small abuse, may well ignite the Israeli deluge.

If this Obama peace plan attempt does not reach fruition, look for flotillas, and surrounding Arab nations to open their borders and break any Israeli blockades of
the Palestinian economy.
 
Lemon law said:
Common Courtesy can cite his 60 year figure for Israel but I am going from the point Israel lost all international credibility. Which was probably at Annapolis.

Who walked away from Camp David with promises and then started a conflict?

Who walked away from Oslo with promises and then started a conflict?

Annapolis was a bust - nothing was accomplished. What did Israel promise that was not kept?

In the most recent talks, who walked away from the table?

Looks like the scorecard is Palestinians can take the credit for one tie and 3 walks.

As Israel spouts the same ole same ole propaganda almost no one believes anymore.

Of course pro-Israeli fan clubbers eat up Israeli propaganda like soul food from a 5 star restaurant, but the rest of the world is really questioning Israeli reasoning as Israel also goes off the deep end. And like similar periods in history, just one big or small abuse, may well ignite the Israeli deluge.

If this Obama peace plan attempt does not reach fruition,

Obama does not have a peace plan - he is stumbling around like a child at a pinata party.
Blindfold without a clue to how the real world operates, hoping that he might get lucky swinging the club.
look for flotillas, they failed - drew attention for a week and then fizzled.
and surrounding Arab nations to open their borders and break any Israeli blockades of
the Palestinian economy.
Egypt does not plan on opening any borders - they would have done so a long time ago - after the Turkish fiasco. the most they did is relax but still enforce the issue that Hamas was most vocal about
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There still is only one person in the world talking about an embargo of israel.

The embargo of Gaza can be heavily reduced by Hamas releasing the hostage.

The West bank issue can be resolved if the Palestinians are willing to desire peace.
Who knows if that will be died to the Gaza problem.

The crux of this thread is that Hamas does not want peace and is stating that straight up.
It will be a matter of time before Hamas creates another conflict to get some sympathy - now they want publicity - Korea was getting it all.

the Palestine problem is not going to be sovled due to "just because"
It will be solved then the Palestinians realize that they are not going to get it all that was promised to them in '48 out of the British Mandate and by the collective Arab leadership.

Isreal has shown since Camp David, that they realize that they will have to give up some land for peace. As a country, their leadership was willing to sign off even though it ws politically dangerous.

The Palestinian leadership claimed that they understood; yet allowed the Palestinian troubles to ignite and then could not deliver on their promises.

Israel requires peace from the Palestinian people in exchange for the Palestinian state. No peace, no state. Either Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank have been able to break agreements and all three groups now it.
 
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Personally, i don't really care all that much about who did what and what happened where because it seems to me that when you do you lose focus on the present and future.

Present and forseeable future is that Israel wins, Hamas being the elected government of the Palestinians will continue to use terrorism as a weapon and once every now and then Israel will defend their civilian population until none of Hamas or their human shields exist.

It'll take about 150 years or so because despite what the retarded people think, Israel does hold back quite a bit but eventually there will be no Palestinians left for the Jihad, same goes for every other fucked up wannabee wor.d dominator piss poor nation, not it's inahbitants though, they will become refugees in Luton, UK and praise their brave brothers from afar.

The entire discussion is broken when people don't realise that negotiations cannot be had when the leadership wants a genocide of all Jews.
 
The Common Courtesy point rests on saying, " Who walked away from Camp David with promises and then started a conflict?

Who walked away from Oslo with promises and then started a conflict?

Annapolis was a bust - nothing was accomplished. What did Israel promise that was not kept?

In the most recent talks, who walked away from the table?

Looks like the scorecard is Palestinians can take the credit for one tie and 3 walks."
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And if this Israeli propaganda is to be believed, then Israel would start offering some concessions rather than a totally one sided deal. And sadly that has not happened, nor is it likely to happen as Obama is finding out.

The point being Common Courtesy is that Abbas is simply saying why put up with the charade of peace talks, unless Israel quits settling and settling on disputed lands. And why a pro-Israeli fan clubber would never believe that Israeli propaganda line is wearing thinner and thinner since 1992, the rest of the world, and especially the Arab world are starting to line up on the side of Abbas. Because at the Annapolis peace talks, when the entire Arab world was prepared to recognize the 1967 borders of Israel, all Israel did is talk and talk, and build and build, and guess what Israel is building and building on lands they cannot own even as I type this.

I therefore predict the next round of peace talks unlikely to be US brokered with start with an a world wide demand on Israel that building on disputed land must come to a screeching halt. Meanwhile Egypt, with its one foot in the grave leader Murbarak holds the key. Especially if Mubarack is replaced, Egypt may acede to Arab demands and simply cease co-operating with Israel in any way in terms of a blockade of Gaza, and Jordon is likely to follow suit in the West Bank. Already some states have recognized a Palestinians State, and the list is likely to grow exponentially if the Obama peace talks fail. As Abbas will be proven correct and Israel will be proven to be the unwilling peace partner using talk to disguise their lack of action.
 
Lemon law said:
The Common Courtesy point rests on saying, " Who walked away from Camp David with promises and then started a conflict?

Who walked away from Oslo with promises and then started a conflict?

Annapolis was a bust - nothing was accomplished. What did Israel promise that was not kept?

In the most recent talks, who walked away from the table?

Looks like the scorecard is Palestinians can take the credit for one tie and 3 walks."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if this Israeli propaganda is to be believed, then Israel would start offering some concessions rather than a totally one sided deal. And sadly that has not happened, nor is it likely to happen as Obama is finding out.

The point being Common Courtesy is that Abbas is simply saying why put up with the charade of peace talks, unless Israel quits settling and settling on disputed lands. And why a pro-Israeli fan clubber would never believe that Israeli propaganda line is wearing thinner and thinner since 1992, the rest of the world, and especially the Arab world are starting to line up on the side of Abbas. Because at the Annapolis peace talks, when the entire Arab world was prepared to recognize the 1967 borders of Israel, all Israel did is talk and talk, and build and build, and guess what Israel is building and building on lands they cannot own even as I type this.

I therefore predict the next round of peace talks unlikely to be US brokered with start with an a world wide demand on Israel that building on disputed land must come to a screeching halt. Meanwhile Egypt, with its one foot in the grave leader Murbarak holds the key. Especially if Mubarack is replaced, Egypt may acede to Arab demands and simply cease co-operating with Israel in any way in terms of a blockade of Gaza, and Jordon is likely to follow suit in the West Bank. Already some states have recognized a Palestinians State, and the list is likely to grow exponentially if the Obama peace talks fail. As Abbas will be proven correct and Israel will be proven to be the unwilling peace partner using talk to disguise their lack of action.
Click to expand...

I think i should take over the negotiations, i'm as much elected leader over the Palestinians as Abbas is.

Useless peace talks are useless because while Israel are bound by them, Abbas has no power to bind the Palestinians by it, there isn't ANYTHING he can do about it, not one bit more than you can.

Mubarak already has a successor to follow the same policy, nothing will change when you inherit a successful title rather than get elected by your own people, Jordan absolutely hates Palestinians and would be happy if they ceased to exist, in fact, if everyone would look away Jordan would be happy to fix that..

Bring an elected government that the Palestinians will follow to the table, not the guy that has never been elected and mostly just cares about moving money out of the area much like his predecessor Arafat and who has absolutely no power over the people who would inhabit the state of Palestine.

It will never happen because if there was an election today, Hamas would win on their genocide of Jews platform.
 
I ask JOS what Hamas genocide of Jews platform? The fact that Hamas does not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel and in turn Israel does not recognize the legitimacy of a democratically Hamas leadership in Gaza does not, it itself, mean a violent war between those two sides must happen.

But if we just look at the recent past and present, Israel is certainly the greater killer than Hamas. Hamas rockets are mostly in the mere annoyance category and in no 20 year period ever killed as many Israelis as the 2008 Israeli rape of Gaza where Israel committed indiscriminate war crimes against innocent Gaza civilians.

But if nothing else, the Hamas refusal to recognize Israel is rooted in a lesson learned by Arifat. Because when Arifat, as the opening price of even starting to negotiate with Israel recognized the Israeli state, and then Arifat still failed to get what he felt was a fair deal, he was still stuck with his recognition of the Israeli State. And spent the rest of his life regretting it.

Hamas is simply refusing to make the Arifat mistake. But why should we accept this Israeli bullshit line, that enemies can't negotiate. The US talked the the North Koreans during the Korean war, the US talked to the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam war, and all similar countries all over the world have done the same thing. Why should Israel be the only exception to the rule??????

But talking to your enemy is the time honored way to arrive at a stable peace. And as that peace deal is signed by both sides, then and only then do the various sides have to recognize the legitimacy of each other.

The other thing to point out is that Gaza, the West Bank, and even Hezbollah are not presently attacking Israel, even if a few, likely from rogue group rockets are fired. But Israel is certainly killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank while placing rather crippling embargoes on their economies. Meanwhile Israel builds and builds in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, on land no country on earth recognizes as Israeli. 43 years and counting.

Ever since the Oslo accords, the world has been operating on what amounts to a failed premise, that Israel and the Palestinians can reach a mutually satisfactory deal. And now that that Premise has failed, the only way forward may be binding third party arbitration or granting full voting rights to the Palestinians.

Smarter people inside Israel have basically known this for years, and if a Palestinian State alternative failed which its now doing, even worse for the State of Israel alternatives were inevitable.

But then again, no one is accusing bat shit crazy settler parties and much of the present Israel leadership of being SMART.

But that is the bet of Bozo Netanyuhu and his fellow crazies, if Israel can talk the same ole propaganda again, and torpedo the Obama peace talks, all will revert to another 18 years of resumed Israeli control as it all blows over.

And we may all soon see if that is a smart bet or a really foolish bet. As Israel, if nothing else, plays we bet all our world credibility.
 
What Obama Plan? The Pals walked out after 1 month of non substance talking
Israeli offererd concession in the three previous + the tie.
the Arabs/Palestinians on two, said yes and then changed their mind afterward, but wanted Israel to keep their end.

In the last one, because of the Palistinineans trying to make a opint that they could control/jerk the negotiation around did nto show up for 8 months while Israel ceased the construction.

Obama now realized that no amount of bribes is going to solve an issue that does not want to be solved.

The Palestinains want it all or they will not show. And you feel that because Israel will not give them all it is Israel's fault.

The Palestinians dug themselves into this hole; two groups and the one that they elected does not want peace.

So the Palestinians will have to accept the results of non-peace. That is their decision/choice.

Hamas lets rockets fly into Israel as a way to keep the pot simmering. It is a way to demonstrate that they will not give in to Israel. Self ego at the expense of the people of Gaza.

And as long as they will allow the rockets, why should Israel talk to them?
Two seperate actions are continually being provided that they are not interested in a true/just peace
 
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Arafat a saint?

He manipulated world opinion to think that the Palestinians were the victim.

Goes up on world stage and ask for help; then goes back to his villas and orders attacks against Israel.
 
Earth to Common Courtesy, no one ever said Arifat was a saint, but then again, when Israel elevated two former terrorists to PM status, fewer and fewer people are buying the
myth of Israeli sainthood either. As the creme of the creme of Israeli piggish settler parties rule the day in Israel.

As for the larger world that has a huge investment in mid-east stability, they may not give much of a damn about Israel or the even smaller number of Palestinians, when Israel is increasingly seen as the number one threat to mid-east stability and oil flow, its not going to be promising for Israel.

As for your previous post claiming you understand what goes on in the mind of Obama and other world leaders, I can only conclude its totally colored by your own biases.

More realistic people had grave doubts that Obama had the backbone, the required toughness, or congressional support to get anything done.

Which is why Obama may be the last US president in history to be trusted to broker a mid-east peace. And when just about every single other entity in the world that next takes up the broker a peace mandate, none of those other entities will be as firmly in the hands of pro Israeli lobbyists. Meaning the next mid-east peace mediator will have no problems with using sticks rather than carrots with Israel.

But such is the nature of the present Israeli gamble, will it pay off for Israeli or not, only time and subsequent events will tell.
 
Lemon law said:
I ask JOS what Hamas genocide of Jews platform?
Click to expand...

Except for Hamas openly stating that the state of Israel must be destroyed and openly supporting continuing terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians of course?

Well i suppose, apart from what they are actively saying and doing, there isn't anything that supports their words and actions...

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your reiterated "Hamas are gods angels and Arafat was Jesus second coming" bullsheit.
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
Except for Hamas openly stating that the state of Israel must be destroyed and openly supporting continuing terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians of course?

Well i suppose, apart from what they are actively saying and doing, there isn't anything that supports their words and actions...

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your reiterated "Hamas are gods angels and Arafat was Jesus second coming" bullsheit.
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Talk about distorting what I said JOS, do you have reading comprehension problems JOS?
Or are you just a serial liar?

I invite you to read what I said just a few posts back, namely, " no one ever accused Arifat of being an angel"

But the flaw in your reasoning may be, if Arifat was a rat, that does not mean Israeli leadership are elevated in any way towards sainthood. And when Begin and Mier were card carrying Israeli terrorists with the same morality of Arifat, we can come to the realization that Arifat, Begin, Mier, and much of the present Israeli leadership are on equal footing in some possible hall of infamy.

But then again JOS, no one ever accused you of ever being correct in Afghanistan either.
 
Lemon law said:
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Talk about distorting what I said JOS, do you have reading comprehension problems JOS?
Or are you just a serial liar?

I invite you to read what I said just a few posts back, namely, " no one ever accused Arifat of being an angel"

But the flaw in your reasoning may be, if Arifat was a rat, that does not mean Israeli leadership are elevated in any way towards sainthood. And when Begin and Mier were card carrying Israeli terrorists with the same morality of Arifat, we can come to the realization that Arifat, Begin, Mier, and much of the present Israeli leadership are on equal footing in some possible hall of infamy.

But then again JOS, no one ever accused you of ever being correct in Afghanistan either.
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No, Arafat was a twat that stole from the population to enrich his family and knew very well that IF there had been a serious peace treaty he would have been toast because it would have been known then.

I've already said what i need to say about the new settlements and the Orthodox's that support it, i don't really have anything more to say on that matter, neither do Samur or Jedi but you never listen anyway so perhaps we need to repeat it in every fucking thread? Well...... How about no.

You don't want any discussion on the real situation, you really don't care, all you want is to defend Hamas by blaming Israel and think that that will justify terrorism against civilians... It doesn't, not in any nation on earth and not in any sane mans mind either.

I'll excuse your little quip about Afghanistan since every member here that has ever been in Afghanistan or knows anything about it agrees with me on the matter.
 
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