Half mile wire run ... ?

[Zor Prime]

Alright, this should be fun should people chime in with various solutions.

Objective: Connect folks place half a mile away, over a hill, and share my internet connection.

First up, perhaps WiFi with dishes. Problem is, there's a bit of a large obstruction ... a hill. If it wasn't the hill, there's trees to contend with, too.

Now, I don't mind running wire. Even burying wire.

I just need signal strength good enough for a consistent 24/7 connection that doesn't die on me.

What are some solutions you networking people have? I don't care if the solution is totally ghetto and otherwise ridiculous. As long as it works and doesn't make me file for bankruptcy, I'm good with it.

 

[imagoon]

Fiber, DSL over copper, moca over coax all should work. Fiber is the safest and likely to be the least problematic over time.

 

[Belegost]

I don't know about DSL over copper and the complexity of setup. Moca maxes out at around 100m from what I know, well below this run.

Fiber seems like the best idea, but the price is a definite factor, 1000m of half decent fiber will run 1500 bare minimum, 150 - 200 for converters on each end, and 10% extra for miscellaneous and I not see getting the parts alone for under 2000. Reasonable for commercial purposes, but to just share internet?

Is there some limitation that prevents getting internet service directly to your parents home?

 

[bobdole369]

900mhz wireless will make it. You won't like the >1mbit though.

Get half a t-1 dropped at both places heh. Bout $400/monthly and you'll pay for 2 ports.

Get a dialup modem dedicated and become ur parents AOL? Get 2 dialup modems and get them 112kbit bonded service through your connection? They'll need 2 phone lines though and so will you. Damn just pay their bill. naked DSL 1.5/256 is like $20 now.

If you can cut a trench the whole way and can install a conduit - a fibers the best shot. Just put a media converter on each end and plug into your switch.

 

[imagoon]

I don't know about DSL over copper and the complexity of setup. Moca maxes out at around 100m from what I know, well below this run.

Fiber seems like the best idea, but the price is a definite factor, 1000m of half decent fiber will run 1500 bare minimum, 150 - 200 for converters on each end, and 10% extra for miscellaneous and I not see getting the parts alone for under 2000. Reasonable for commercial purposes, but to just share internet?

Is there some limitation that prevents getting internet service directly to your parents home?

MOCA varies on the gear and implementation. DSL gear can be had on ebay cheap (like ~$200 ish)

The most expensive part of this would be trenching the 2600 feat with 2600 feet of media.

 

[Zor Prime]

Yea, I'm in a rural area.

Both our homes have been using 3G service for Internet courtesy of a nearby Interstate and the communication towers that run along it.

A cable company has just moved into the area and bringing cable internet as one of their services. I had Road Runner service back in the 90's, but ended up moving back to a rural area. You cannot get DSL in this area.

Anyway, I can get cable internet service here, finally. My folks on the other hand, I'm not so sure the cable company will be so inclined to run service to their home which is off the beaten path.

The intranet-like DSL setup sounds interesting and most cost effective.

Could you give me a parts list so I can get a better bearing on what all I need to pickup?

I may very well just have to dig those trenches and bury conduit this spring should the cable company not find running service to my folks very appealing (and I'm 95% positive they'd balk at the idea).

If nothing else, it's one hell of a project.

 

[drebo]

This is my preferred unit: http://www.startech.com/Networking-I...Kit~110VDSLEXT

They're available everywhere, and startech is a great company.

That said, fiber would be a better solution. Also, conduit isn't necessary either, you can get direct burial cables. Shielded is not necessary. Just make sure they're >18in deep.

 

[Mark R]

Can you put a tower on top of the hill?

You can get tower kits, containing a wifi repeater with directional antennas, batteries, solar panel and wind-turbine. This may be the best option. With a wifi link and directional antennas at each end, this should work reasonably well.

I did briefly look at running wire for 10 miles to bring internet to the boonies, but we decided to go with a string of the above towers.

Fiber would work well, not that cheap though. Figure about $100-$250 for equipment (2x cat 5 converter, and 2x 1000base-LX laser modules). However, fiber cable is quite expensive - especially if you want steel armor. Figure about $3k++ for a half-mile cable with connectors pre-installed (you can't install them yourself).

You can go ghetto with fiber. You can get cat5 converters for $25 each, and I managed to get some 1000base-ZX+ lasers for $2 each off ebay. The ZX+ lasers are much more powerful than LX, and designed for 50 mile links. The problem I found was that for 50 yards, the lasers were overkill and the receivers couldn't process the signal correctly. In did get the link working, but I had to put "shades" on the receivers(fiber attenuator - $10 off ebay). Real "LX" lasers (which is what you would need) are in quite high demand, so normally fetch around $40-50 on ebay.

While steel armored cable would be recommended. You could cheap out, and use unarmored cable. This is much cheaper (unarmored cable can be had for a few cents per foot, whereas steel armored cable is $2-$5 per foot). However, it will need protection, so I figured that you can buy some cheap flexible water pipe, and then run the fiber through that. The pipe will be waterproof (it's water pipe, lol) and the connections will also be waterproof, and it's reasonably tough and suitable for burial. (water pipe costs about $.25 per foot).

 

[piasabird]

Might be nice to put a telephone pole on the hilltop and mount and make it like a wireless repeater. Only problem would be the power. A friend of mine is a Ham operator and he mounted a directional wireless antenna on his Ham tower. Burying cable might be a nice idea. That is a lot of trench.

maybe get satelite or just put in some tel poles.

 

[imagoon]

Top of my head would be:

lightning attenuators for both ends
A pair of point to point DSL modems
your 1/2 mile of direct bury cable
trenching machine
misc terminations

there isn't a whole lot of gear really. Thing is getting and installing all the copper is not going to be cheap. I wouldn't be surprised if the flooded, direct bury copper cable is more than $2,000 preshipping.

Also the max you will get is around 25mbps. Fiber would be by far faster and fiber is currently cheaper per foot, even in a coat.

 

[exdeath]

62.5/125 multi mode fiber is the best and most future proof solution (and much cheaper than single mode).

If you're having to dig and lay pipe/cable, might as well spend the extra on fiber. You need media converters or modems of some sort on each end regardless, and need to dig a trench and lay pipe/cable regardless. The added cost per foot for fiber and the media converters aren't THAT significant.

You have to look at the marginal increase of fiber over the base price of any other solution, not the total cost. If it's going to cost $1500 for copper to get 1 mbps, or $500 more to go fiber and get 250-1000 mbps.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I'd look at fiber. DSL would work too, but probably end up being more expensive. You would also need to pump about 2PSI of dry air at all time into the cable to prevent moisture from getting in. A run that long is bound to get small holes and such in it over time. When the pressure goes down you know there's something wrong and can go investigate so it kinda acts as a monitoring system as well.

For a single fiber run you probably would not really need to worry about pumping air. I would try to see how much it would cost for a multi pair fiber cable and run that. (you'll have spare pairs in case one goes bad, or for future expansion)

The nice thing with fiber is you can probably get like 100mbs or even higher, it all depends on what you want to spend on the converters. You can go cheap at first, then upgrade later.

 

[Mark R]

For a single fiber run you probably would not really need to worry about pumping air. I would try to see how much it would cost for a multi pair fiber cable and run that. (you'll have spare pairs in case one goes bad, or for future expansion)

The nice thing with fiber is you can probably get like 100mbs or even higher, it all depends on what you want to spend on the converters. You can go cheap at first, then upgrade later.

Yeah. I think this would be better than copper.

Fiber is inherently waterproof, and can be permanently submerged in water without significant degradation. However, it is relatively fragile, and cannot be cut to length, joined or have connectors attached except by a pro. This therefore means you need to carefully measure your run before the fiber is installed, order the fiber cut to length (with some excess) with connectors attached at the factory, and install some sort of rack to carefully hold he excess cable at each end. (Either that, or you install the cable first, and then hire a pro to make the connections on site - but this would probably be more expensive).

Personally, I'd use single mode fiber (cheap fiber, unlimited bandwidth, expensive lasers) rather than multi-mode (more expensive fiber, price depends on bandwidth, bandwidth limited, cheap lasers). With multimode, you'll be limited to about 100 Mbit, gigabit will be pretty much a no-go. With single mode, your only limit is what you want to connect to it.

 

[Smoblikat]

Fiber, DSL over copper, moca over coax all should work. Fiber is the safest and likely to be the least problematic over time.

I second this, fiber doesnt suffer from atinuation of EMI as badly as copper, just grab some repeaters and plug her in. But why dont they just come over to use the internet? Or get their own.

 

[Belegost]

If you decide to go the fiber route, I suggest renting a trencher, digging the trench and putting down cheap flexible PVC, with two nylon ropes laid inside, cut one rope to be exact length with 3 feet to spare on each end, pull that rope out and measure it exactly. That's the length you order. When you get the fiber, use the other rope to help guide it through the run. Mind you the fiber is delicate, I wouldn't try just pulling it through, guide it slowly with plenty of breaks in your pipe. Once the fiber is laid and tested, then seal all the joints and backfill gently.

 

[NXIL]

Hey Zor, looks like you have three options:

1) Cable company lays wire. Win! I am pretty sure I have read somewhere that cable companies get "free" money from the guvviment (yeah, I know) to bring service to rural homes. That may be part of their agreement or contract, to get an exclusive area, like this cable company almost certainly has. Advantages of having them do it: they maintain it, and, your parents can get cable TV is they so desire, internet phone, etc.

This rural cable company: first 150 feet of cable is free:

http://www.townofrussell.us/RussellMunicipalCableTV.html

Doesn't say how much per foot after, just "per cost". Anyway, were it me, I think I would push that option. Beg them. Perform unnatural acts--hey, it's just a time or two, and really, easier than trenching.

Cable company should help I think. Hey, you're a good customer.

2) Wireless. For that range, which is not far at all, I think that would be second best option.

http://www.l-com.com/productcenter.aspx?ID=2018

You can also mix and match: from YOUR home, use WIRE to antenna tower on hill--then antenna wireless to antenna on parent's home. Only one radio jump so latency and bandwidth OK, you can power the transceiver on the antenna via wire from home. Remember: LIGHTNING protection, no matter where you live!

Or: your home, use antenna for wireless to repeater on hill, then repeater to antenna at parent's. Should work fine, unless Your Mother (!) is active on Xbox live playing MW3 and BF3--I hear a lot about some "your mother" on Xbox, and maybe it's her. If so, the latency might be an issue, but, still better than a Hayes Smartmodem rocking at 1200 baud.

3) Laying the fiber, which actually sounds like fun--but, won't be cheap; you'll be running a mini ISP--digging a trench, putting together a fiber optic link, that is a heck of a lot of work.

By the way, here is the estimated cost for a trenching machine. Not sure if you could get a half mile done in one day:

Trencher D/W Ride 3700 w/boring unit 170.00 4 hrs., 260.00 day
Trencher, D/W Ride 3700 140.00 4 hrs., 225.00 day
Trencher, D/W Walk Model 1020, 95.00 4 hrs., 125 day
Trencher, D/W. Walk Model 1030, 95.00 4 hrs., 125.00 day

The cable company either has a trencher, or they can string their cable on the telephone poles that probably already go to your parent's house bringing electric/phone service--

Good luck: I say--cable company! Good luck!

 

[spidey07]

You can do 10 gig even with multimode fiber. Just get om3 or higher 50 micron 62.5 is dead.

 

[Mark R]

You can do 10 gig even with multimode fiber. Just get om3 or higher 50 micron 62.5 is dead.

OM3 is not specified for more than 550 metres at any data rate. It might work for gigabit at half a mile, but this is not within the spec.

OM3 is also ludicrously expensive compared to regular single mode fiber. For the OP's use, single mode optics are almost free compared to the cost of the fiber plant he's installing.

 

[spidey07]

Then get armored direct burial sm and zx optics and pay somebody to trench it. Done.

 

[Zor Prime]

I appreciate all of the thoughts and ideas. Thanks guys.

This is only a secondary option provided the cable company doesn't feel like running line to my folks place. But, I wanted to see what people had to say if I had to run my own line.

The hill separating our properties isn't owned by my folks or I. It is owned by a cousin, who probably wouldn't care if I dug all over the property, but asking to erect a tower is something I am not comfortable with (I rarely speak to them, and I live within viewing distance of their home).

I know a local WISP asked to put a tower up there, they were refused. Granted, I have higher innate probability of getting the go-ahead, but I don't feel like pressing the issue and potentially creating inner-family drama. In-ground cable, out-of-sight, out-of-mind.

The people running the consumer relations part of the cable company are on the incompetent side. They had contractors out here running line down my road and I asked the corporate office if they serviced my address and they told me no and I went to the window and stood there looking at the newly strung cable about 80 foot away and said "sure" to myself. Granted, the new cable hadn't been tapped yet.

So, thanks for the information. It has given me options to mull over and consider.

 

[Modelworks]

Cable or wire is not the way I would do it. I would use multiple radios and repeaters. From your home use yagi antenna and send the signal as far as you can before a obstruction to a wifi repeater. Repeat doing that to get around obstructions in the path until you complete the link. For power use solar and a battery for each repeating site. You can do this without needing towers or having to go very high. Use google satellite photos to find the best path through the terrain.

Something that works in your favor with wooded areas is trees, they make very nice, high, mounting sites.

 

[alkemyst]

Wireless. Beam to the hill and beam down. Rinse and repeat. 1/2 mile is nothing for it.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Wireless. Beam to the hill and beam down. Rinse and repeat. 1/2 mile is nothing for it.

I would go the wireless route as well with setting up repeater stations. High gain antennas are pretty darn affordable compared to the cost of a half mile of fiber.

 

[NXIL]

Zor writes:

This is only a secondary option provided the cable company doesn't feel like running line to my folks place. But, I wanted to see what people had to say if I had to run my own line.

Hey Zor, I do hope the cable company comes through and wires your parents up.

If not, there is this option too:

http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/01/09/0111218/viasat-delivers-12-mbps-via-satellite

"Last Thursday, ViaSat announced pricing for its new home broadband service, which is set to deliver 12 Mbps+ download speeds (3 Mbps+ up) beginning next week for $50 per month. Engadget just dropped by the company's demo home just a few feet from the Engadget trailer at the Las Vegas Convention Center parking lot to try it out, and posted their review."

The comments there, understandably, wail for information about how much data that $50 buys.

Review:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/08/viasat-residential-satellite-broadband-internet-hands-on-video/

Some latency, 600ms pings, since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit, about 25,000 miles up as I recall--but again I assume no on line gaming. Review says that VOIP was "usable", but there was a noticeable delay.

50/3 for fifty bucks sounds pretty good, even given the latency issue. And, at the very least, it's some real competition for that cable company.

GL!

 

[skyking]

I have some old cicso LRE gear that would do it over some icky-pick.
"15 Mbps symmetrical rate (up to 3,500 feet)"
You *might* have cable already in place
The phone company could lease you a dry pair if they had it to spare.