Haaretz: Kerry position paper outlines support for Israel

[GrGr]

Kerry promises continued support for Israel on all crucial points

Absolutely disgusting move by Kerry.

 

[Preyhunter]

Don't worry, it'll change tomorrow.

 

[MrGrim257]

Yeah, but it will change back the next day, so this thread is debateable half the time.

 

[LunarRay]

I think Israel is a strategic ally in the area. They just like any other ally ought to receive our full support. The are a democracy deserving of all the support we can give them. Now then! Having said that, I must also indicate that our decisions regarding how we officially view Israel's dealing with the Palestinian issue are troublesome.
So, Kerry must sustain the historic policy regarding Israel and espouse views toward finalizing some workable deal for the Palestinians. (BTW, if a certain somebody indicates there are no such people as Palestinians or no such land as Palestine, assume I speak to the folks AKA Palestinians and etc.)

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: MrGrim257
Yeah, but it will change back the next day, so this thread is debateable half the time.

Well... If it is debatable at all then it would be debatable all the time. The sides would change, though..😀

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I think Israel is a strategic ally in the area. They just like any other ally ought to receive our full support. The are a democracy deserving of all the support we can give them. Now then! Having said that, I must also indicate that our decisions regarding how we officially view Israel's dealing with the Palestinian issue are troublesome.
So, Kerry must sustain the historic policy regarding Israel and espouse views toward finalizing some workable deal for the Palestinians. (BTW, if a certain somebody indicates there are no such people as Palestinians or no such land as Palestine, assume I speak to the folks AKA Palestinians and etc.)

This is how the Bush slippery slope politics works. Push the US down a bit and the next guy will continue form there. Repeal the Constituion a bit and the next guy will continue from there. Until one day there is a new reactionary in power that will continue the slippery slope tactic and push a bit further down the slope. And soon there will be no slope anymore.

It is absolutely shameful that the US supports Sharon and his racistic policies. You can support the state of Israel without supporting Sharon. The real issue here is Kerry. Why vote for him if he is simply a watered down version of Bush?

Edit: Ok if the poison is watered down enough it may not be lethal. On the other hand it still may.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I think Israel is a strategic ally in the area. They just like any other ally ought to receive our full support. The are a democracy deserving of all the support we can give them. Now then! Having said that, I must also indicate that our decisions regarding how we officially view Israel's dealing with the Palestinian issue are troublesome.
So, Kerry must sustain the historic policy regarding Israel and espouse views toward finalizing some workable deal for the Palestinians. (BTW, if a certain somebody indicates there are no such people as Palestinians or no such land as Palestine, assume I speak to the folks AKA Palestinians and etc.)

This is how the Bush slippery slope politics works. Push the US down a bit and the next guy will continue form there. Repeal the Constituion a bit and the next guy will continue from there. Until one day there is a new reactionary in power that will continue the slippery slope tactic and push a bit further down the slope. And soon there will be no slope anymore.

It is absolutely shameful that the US supports Sharon and his racistic policies. You can support the state of Israel without supporting Sharon. The real issue here is Kerry. Why vote for him if he is simply a watered down version of Bush?

Edit: Ok if the poison is watered down enough it may not be lethal. On the other hand it still may.

I guess, grgr, the reality is that Israel is a strategic ally notwithstanding Sharon.
The Slope issue is or could be viewed two ways. At least I see it that way. We are a dynamic society in a dynamic world all full of folks. I don't see the slope at all perhaps as you do. But, do agree the courts in lagging societal desires puts the issues somewhat seemingly on a slope regarding domestic issues. I think we have to sorta accept that the international dynamics may alter yesterday's idea of standard behavior to more reasonably accommodate the new reality. I think this is true both domestically and internationally.
We are so internationally intertwined and becoming more so that we should either lead, follow or opt out of the way.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I think Israel is a strategic ally in the area. They just like any other ally ought to receive our full support. The are a democracy deserving of all the support we can give them. Now then! Having said that, I must also indicate that our decisions regarding how we officially view Israel's dealing with the Palestinian issue are troublesome.
So, Kerry must sustain the historic policy regarding Israel and espouse views toward finalizing some workable deal for the Palestinians. (BTW, if a certain somebody indicates there are no such people as Palestinians or no such land as Palestine, assume I speak to the folks AKA Palestinians and etc.)

This is how the Bush slippery slope politics works. Push the US down a bit and the next guy will continue form there. Repeal the Constituion a bit and the next guy will continue from there. Until one day there is a new reactionary in power that will continue the slippery slope tactic and push a bit further down the slope. And soon there will be no slope anymore.

It is absolutely shameful that the US supports Sharon and his racistic policies. You can support the state of Israel without supporting Sharon. The real issue here is Kerry. Why vote for him if he is simply a watered down version of Bush?

Edit: Ok if the poison is watered down enough it may not be lethal. On the other hand it still may.

I guess, grgr, the reality is that Israel is a strategic ally notwithstanding Sharon.
The Slope issue is or could be viewed two ways. At least I see it that way. We are a dynamic society in a dynamic world all full of folks. I don't see the slope at all perhaps as you do. But, do agree the courts in lagging societal desires puts the issues somewhat seemingly on a slope regarding domestic issues. I think we have to sorta accept that the international dynamics may alter yesterday's idea of standard behavior to more reasonably accommodate the new reality. I think this is true both domestically and internationally.
We are so internationally intertwined and becoming more so that we should either lead, follow or opt out of the way.

I don't agree that there is a 'new reality'. The world is ticking along the same way it always has. The only change is that now the enemies potentially can fight back in a meaningful way (which hasn't been the case since the British were defeated and not counting IBMs). Keep in mind that this change is only from the US point of view. That is very important to understand. If the Bin Ladens can alter your behaviour they have already won. "Shape your enemy" says Sun Tzu. If the US accomodates Bin Laden and becomes what he says it is then how can the US win? The answer is if that is the case the US has already lost. Did Bin Laden kill the soul of the US on 9/11?

Who would you lead, who would you follow and if you opt out for whom would you do so? I think there is a fourth answer. The US should cooperate internationally and help set a standard for what is legal and acceptable behaviour. Start with the ICC and support the rule of law in an international setting (yes even *gasp* for the US), work for reform within the UN and go from there. Even if it is painful and humiliating process. The US should admit that nobody is perfect, acknowledge past mistakes and transgressions and become the first among equals on the international stage. This unilateral "giant on clay feet" strategy is doomed to fail shockingly and awesomely. Balance trumps extremism.

 

[LunarRay]

GrGr,

I don't agree that there is a 'new reality'. The world is ticking along the same way it always has. The only change is that now the enemies potentially can fight back in a meaningful way (which hasn't been the case since the British were defeated and not counting IBMs). Keep in mind that this change is only from the US point of view. That is very important to understand. If the Bin Ladens can alter your behaviour they have already won. "Shape your enemy" says Sun Tzu. If the US accomodates Bin Laden and becomes what he says it is then how can the US win? The answer is if that is the case the US has already lost. Did Bin Laden kill the soul of the US on 9/11?

Who would you lead, who would you follow and if you opt out for whom would you do so? I think there is a fourth answer. The US should cooperate internationally and help set a standard for what is legal and acceptable behaviour. Start with the ICC and support the rule of law in an international setting (yes even *gasp* for the US), work for reform within the UN and go from there. Even if it is painful and humiliating process. The US should admit that nobody is perfect, acknowledge past mistakes and transgressions and become the first among equals on the international stage. This unilateral "giant on clay feet" strategy is doomed to fail shockingly and awesomely. Balance trumps extremism.

Second Para first.
I agree with your statement and suggestion. It is the common sense means toward peace on earth. We have two... of us now.. and about 5 billion more to enlist.. 😀

First Para second.
Each tick changes the now into the past and a new now becomes. The dynamic of leadership is such that even a charismatic speaker with insane notions of nationalism can incite rage in the population. The support for this insanity is provided by a pyramid of bodies. The lowest level of that pyramid don't have a clue what is going on. They just like the notion proffered or the 'cut of his leather' or link to one side issue that they hold dear. The problem is in the pyramid base.. lots of folks there. Enough to get the leader elected to power where the next tier down can put forth their Agenda with the full support of the pyramid's content.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: LunarRay


Second Para first.
I agree with your statement and suggestion. It is the common sense means toward peace on earth. We have two... of us now.. and about 5 billion more to enlist.. 😀

First Para second.
Each tick changes the now into the past and a new now becomes. The dynamic of leadership is such that even a charismatic speaker with insane notions of nationalism can incite rage in the population. The support for this insanity is provided by a pyramid of bodies. The lowest level of that pyramid don't have a clue what is going on. They just like the notion proffered or the 'cut of his leather' or link to one side issue that they hold dear. The problem is in the pyramid base.. lots of folks there. Enough to get the leader elected to power where the next tier down can put forth their Agenda with the full support of the pyramid's content.

A crucial defense to the programming of the pyramid base is the media. It is the role of the media to analyze the agendas of those in power and to help the base stay aware of what is going on. Unfortunately the media is no longer capable of performing this task, it has instead been perverted into becoming a part of the program. US media is too bought and too embedded. The problem is not the pyramid base itself as much as the disinformation and propaganda it is being fed. It has taken a lot of effort and a lot of money to program the base. Exaggerated nationalism is one of the easiest and most efficient ways of programming the base.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: LunarRay


Second Para first.
I agree with your statement and suggestion. It is the common sense means toward peace on earth. We have two... of us now.. and about 5 billion more to enlist.. 😀

First Para second.
Each tick changes the now into the past and a new now becomes. The dynamic of leadership is such that even a charismatic speaker with insane notions of nationalism can incite rage in the population. The support for this insanity is provided by a pyramid of bodies. The lowest level of that pyramid don't have a clue what is going on. They just like the notion proffered or the 'cut of his leather' or link to one side issue that they hold dear. The problem is in the pyramid base.. lots of folks there. Enough to get the leader elected to power where the next tier down can put forth their Agenda with the full support of the pyramid's content.

A crucial defense to the programming of the pyramid base is the media. It is the role of the media to analyze the agendas of those in power and to help the base stay aware of what is going on. Unfortunately the media is no longer capable of performing this task, it has instead been perverted into becoming a part of the program. US media is too bought and too embedded. The problem is not the pyramid base itself as much as the disinformation and propaganda it is being fed. It has taken a lot of effort and a lot of money to program the base. Exaggerated nationalism is one of the easiest and most efficient ways of programming the base.

Hehehehehe..

Look about you here and you'll find all manner of defensiveness for what ought to be obvious - a sick scenario of government in action. The pyramid base is solidified and petrified into a morphed state of being. At Giza are a few such structures not unlike here in the US. The Giza structures have withstood the erosive effects of time and many changes. They have been robbed of their value but, yet sustain. They are worthless, yet protected. They both house but the memories of the long since dead.
In another thread, Dissipate suggested the total corruption of our system on many fronts. I've argued against his notion. But, have yet to become morphed into stone. I've though about and read a bit about what he argued. I'm not persuaded that the solution requires the razing of pyramids but, rather a liquefaction of sorts. A new breed of citizen will and is populating our nation. A generation scorned much as I was in my era by the entrenched thoughts of the aged and set in stone philosophies of the know-it-alls. But, even as I adapted to the reality of my time they, the need breed, will not. They will change the system because they can and they know they can. The only thing I hope for is that the side that prevails will be the side that brings peace and harmony through reason and diplomacy.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: LunarRay


Second Para first.
I agree with your statement and suggestion. It is the common sense means toward peace on earth. We have two... of us now.. and about 5 billion more to enlist.. 😀

First Para second.
Each tick changes the now into the past and a new now becomes. The dynamic of leadership is such that even a charismatic speaker with insane notions of nationalism can incite rage in the population. The support for this insanity is provided by a pyramid of bodies. The lowest level of that pyramid don't have a clue what is going on. They just like the notion proffered or the 'cut of his leather' or link to one side issue that they hold dear. The problem is in the pyramid base.. lots of folks there. Enough to get the leader elected to power where the next tier down can put forth their Agenda with the full support of the pyramid's content.

A crucial defense to the programming of the pyramid base is the media. It is the role of the media to analyze the agendas of those in power and to help the base stay aware of what is going on. Unfortunately the media is no longer capable of performing this task, it has instead been perverted into becoming a part of the program. US media is too bought and too embedded. The problem is not the pyramid base itself as much as the disinformation and propaganda it is being fed. It has taken a lot of effort and a lot of money to program the base. Exaggerated nationalism is one of the easiest and most efficient ways of programming the base.

Hehehehehe..

Look about you here and you'll find all manner of defensiveness for what ought to be obvious - a sick scenario of government in action. The pyramid base is solidified and petrified into a morphed state of being. At Giza are a few such structures not unlike here in the US. The Giza structures have withstood the erosive effects of time and many changes. They have been robbed of their value but, yet sustain. They are worthless, yet protected. They both house but the memories of the long since dead.
In another thread, Dissipate suggested the total corruption of our system on many fronts. I've argued against his notion. But, have yet to become morphed into stone. I've though about and read a bit about what he argued. I'm not persuaded that the solution requires the razing of pyramids but, rather a liquefaction of sorts. A new breed of citizen will and is populating our nation. A generation scorned much as I was in my era by the entrenched thoughts of the aged and set in stone philosophies of the know-it-alls. But, even as I adapted to the reality of my time they, the need breed, will not. They will change the system because they can and they know they can. The only thing I hope for is that the side that prevails will be the side that brings peace and harmony through reason and diplomacy.

Chaos and Law are perpetually striving for mastery. If one gains the upper hand disaster threatens. If Chaos reigns madness ensues but if Law reigns supreme she will suffocate everything. The happy medium is balance. Chaos now has the upper hand on Law and is threatening to topple her only to raise a false image in her stead, ensuring the reign of madness. It is true some refuse, or at this point are too blinded, to see what is in front of their eyes. But Law still has her champions so all is not yet lost. Unfortunately Corruption, that old enemy of Law and ally to Chaos, is increasingly gaining strength and is besieging some of Law's most crucial defenders. Who can tell how it will end? But Law will need all the help she can get from supporters of reason and balance.

 

[LunarRay]

GrGr,

Chaos and Law are perpetually striving for mastery. If one gains the upper hand disaster threatens. If Chaos reigns madness ensues but if Law reigns supreme she will suffocate everything. The happy medium is balance. Chaos now has the upper hand on Law and is threatening to topple her only to raise a false image in her stead, ensuring the reign of madness. It is true some refuse, or at this point are too blinded, to see what is in front of their eyes. But Law still has her champions so all is not yet lost. Unfortunately Corruption, that old enemy of Law and ally to Chaos, is increasingly gaining strength and is besieging some of Law's most crucial defenders. Who can tell how it will end? But Law will need all the help she can get from supporters of reason and balance.

Yes... true!

The Rule of Law is my what supports everything I hold dear. Balance is what she holds in her hand.
It is reason to strive.
In any event, you may see it come to pass. I may not... depending.. 🙂 Balance... equilibrium... inevitable.
We live in strange times among stranger folks hoping for sanity in the insane and love in the hateful... it amazes me that we have to seek haven when all that is required is a bit of wisdom.. amazing.

 

[hokiezilla]

Originally posted by: GrGr
This is how the Bush slippery slope politics works. Push the US down a bit and the next guy will continue form there. Repeal the Constituion a bit and the next guy will continue from there. Until one day there is a new reactionary in power that will continue the slippery slope tactic and push a bit further down the slope. And soon there will be no slope anymore.

So it's Bush's fault that Kerry supports Israel? Don't you have some black helicopters to chase?

That's true comedy- thanks for the laugh!!!

It is absolutely shameful that the US supports Sharon and his racistic policies. You can support the state of Israel without supporting Sharon. The real issue here is Kerry. Why vote for him if he is simply a watered down version of Bush?

racistic? Is that a word? Sharon is trying to protect his country from barbaric thugs who murder innocent civilians.

Edit: Ok if the poison is watered down enough it may not be lethal. On the other hand it still may.

Spoken like a true waffle. 😉

 

[hokiezilla]

Originally posted by: LunarRay


Second Para first.
I agree with your statement and suggestion. It is the common sense means toward peace on earth. We have two... of us now.. and about 5 billion more to enlist.. 😀

Ray,

I appreciate your utopic vision of world peace. However, if you have any familiarity with human history, you must logically concede that peace on earth is pie in the sky. It will never happen because of the human condition. I believe, (as opposed to think) that it's a lofty notion, and something to which we should aspire.

It's important to have ideals. However, once in a while reality punches you in the face. Talking about it, and trying to get everyone to play by the same rules should be the goal. Nevertheless, it doesn't insure against those who refuse to follow the rules. Those who live beyone the pale cannot be reasoned with; and they do not care about rules because they have no humanity.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: hokiezilla
So it's Bush's fault that Kerry supports Israel? Don't you have some black helicopters to chase?

That's true comedy- thanks for the laugh!!!

Kerry is responsible for his own actions. However Kerry has chosen to follow the course set out by Bush simply because it is the easier option. Kerry does not have the moral courage or intellect to publicly admit the fact the the US is waging illegal warfare for purposes of empire. Since Kerry is a weak leader and part of the establishment he will follow the path of the least resistance. This is what I meant by Bush pushing the US down the slippery slope. It is easier to cry stop than stopping. Kerry clearly is not the man to stop the rot in the Republic.

Originally posted by: hokiezilla
racistic? Is that a word? Sharon is trying to protect his country from barbaric thugs who murder innocent civilians.

You mean Sharon protects his country from barbaric thugs who murder innocent civilians by murdering innocent civilians. Sorry but where is the difference between murderer of innocent civilans 1 and murder of innocent civilians 2? I am sure you are aware that Sharon's CV of terrorism, murder and genocide is longer than Osama's. Does that qualify him as a "barbaric thug" too?

("Rasistic" is a typo btw.)

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: hokiezilla

Originally posted by: LunarRay


Second Para first.
I agree with your statement and suggestion. It is the common sense means toward peace on earth. We have two... of us now.. and about 5 billion more to enlist.. 😀

Ray,

I appreciate your utopic vision of world peace. However, if you have any familiarity with human history, you must logically concede that peace on earth is pie in the sky. It will never happen because of the human condition. I believe, (as opposed to think) that it's a lofty notion, and something to which we should aspire.

It's important to have ideals. However, once in a while reality punches you in the face. Talking about it, and trying to get everyone to play by the same rules should be the goal. Nevertheless, it doesn't insure against those who refuse to follow the rules. Those who live beyone the pale cannot be reasoned with; and they do not care about rules because they have no humanity.

First let me say that when I go to Baskin and Robbins for a Banana Split I hope to consume the entire thing. I will consume what I'm able to get or am given, however. I don't set my sights low... I expect what I want and settle for what I get. 🙂
Except for the Plantagenet Era in Britain and France I only have common knowledge.

Now Then! Lets say Osama and his band came to me and I had plenipotentiary power in the area. Maybe like Mountbatten in India. OBL indicates to me what it takes for us to get along... I'd listen and discuss and try to reach a common ground and a workable solution. If I could reach agreement then I'd implement it. If not then we'd part and I'd proclaim the following: I will regard any state supporting terrorists or terrorist activities to be at war with the US requiring full and total elimination of the condition using whatever means are appropriate. Be well advised that an attack on the US or its allies by any terrorist entity will be met with a full and immediate retaliatory response on the governments of their sponsors. (that means dropping what ever MOABs are necessary on the government facilities and their leaders and I'd keep dropping them on the next crew of leaders till the problem went away).
If I fight I fight to win totaly. I would use technology. No ground troops are needed cuz I don't want their land or assets, I want their compliance. I am Gort in this situation. I will bring peace to the people of the world by eliminating the leaders who seek the opposite....

MAYBE 😀

 

[LunarRay]

The logical counter to my above is that OBL may not be government related or sponsored...
I'd respond... True... but, if he is on earth he is on earth somewhere and everywhere is controlled by someone and where he is is the responsibility of the folks there... so look under your beds and in your closets. Find him and eliminate the potential of my visit.
Of course I'd not drop bombs on the governments without reasonable justification and would develop or implement such gathering devices as part of the process.