H1B workers.

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.

No, its cause they are willing to work for less pay. Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

people who do stunts in movies make tons of money, would you do it?

face it, life ain't fair. I spend more time studying and got certified etc, now I'm finally a programmer... still make less than my friend who is in finance.. big deal. at least i am doing what I like to do.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.

No, its cause they are willing to work for less pay. Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

You do a PhD because you *love* research, not for the cash.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

When employing out of school, the only future indicators of success the employer has access to is academic performance and work experience. Are you suggesting that a foreign student who qualifies in these categories should be given less preference than an American citizen?

Not only is she saying it, the law requires it. The foreigner citizen can't be hired unless there are no available Americans who are capable of doing the job.

A recent graduate with a BS is not the type of person who should be receiving an H1B visa. I don't care if we poach the best people from other countries with H1B visas, but right now we don't need H1B visas to fill jobs with warm bodies.

So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.

No, its cause they are willing to work for less pay. Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

You do a PhD because you *love* research, not for the cash.

Great, I'm going to go ahead and present a strawman. Why don't we pay PhD's minimum wage and see how much they enjoy doing research.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

When employing out of school, the only future indicators of success the employer has access to is academic performance and work experience. Are you suggesting that a foreign student who qualifies in these categories should be given less preference than an American citizen?

A foreign student is there under a student visa not a work visa.
They may have been granted an exemption to work during the school year.

The law requires that the employer take a US person before the foreign person.


The company knows how the law is verified and creates bogus paperwork/requirements to make the position unfilled.

No one checks if the H1B is able to meet the bogus requirements. The rules only state that no US person met the requirements and that the company then is allowed to go outside via H1B to fill the slot.

The government people that are supposed to verify the H1B take the company's word and documentation; most of the times, they are either not qualified to evaluate the paperwork or have no time to do so.

Now where legit shortages are (Medical) this may not occur.

It does occur in the IT world.

No system ever created by the government is foolproof. The question is, are the exceptions serious enough to cause perturbations in the employment market? I would say no, because the unemployment rate in the tech sector is pretty low (before recession.)

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

they have a position waiting for them because they are brilliant interns/students.

they also paid about 10x as much per unit, imo they PAID their right to have a chance to be here.

the real problem is, people aren't studying hard enough to be competitive. I have been in many interviews, and i can honestly say NONE would prefer a H1B visa worker over an american worker. The documentation, hassle etc is just to overwhelming for the company.

we need to stop blaming and start work/study harder, thats the solution to the H1B problem.

The problem is that H1bs are holding the salaries down. Who wants to work 10x as hard to earn 1/2 as much as someone else? College students almost always migrate to majors or professions that tend to pay more. Thats why the relative number of computer science majors has been shrinking. If we flood the supply, less students will want to be comp science majors, creating a downward spiral.

Our PhD system provides a good example of what happens when the pay is low for a position which requires an advanced degree. Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.

Why do a shitload of people want to become doctors? Cause even though you spend 11+ years as a slave, at the end, you get payed a lot of money.

Why don't you just come out and say you're anti immigrant? *any* immigration will cause competition with the native born.

Once you come out and admit that, I no longer have to argue with you, because our viewpoints differ at the core.

If you're OK with immigration, then you might discard the argument in the lines bolded in your quote.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.

No, its cause they are willing to work for less pay. Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

You do a PhD because you *love* research, not for the cash.

Great, I'm going to go ahead and present a strawman. Why don't we pay PhD's minimum wage and see how much they enjoy doing research.

You answered your own question.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

When employing out of school, the only future indicators of success the employer has access to is academic performance and work experience. Are you suggesting that a foreign student who qualifies in these categories should be given less preference than an American citizen?

Not only is she saying it, the law requires it. The foreigner citizen can't be hired unless there are no available Americans who are capable of doing the job.

A recent graduate with a BS is not the type of person who should be receiving an H1B visa. I don't care if we poach the best people from other countries with H1B visas, but right now we don't need H1B visas to fill jobs with warm bodies.

So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

Given the amount of deception within the program, the evaluation of the H1B position needs to be technically evaluated by a competent professional before being authorized.
This person needs to have a competent understanding of the field (buzzwords/meanings) and an understanding of the job market in the field.

Many employers will advertise in the local paper to meet the flawed H1B requirements, ignoring the national coverage, the Internet or recruiters (unless tied to the company).

It would take 10 minutes to plug into one of the National job boards with the real key words of the position to see if anyone has a resume up that should be looked at.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nixium
So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

No. Assuming you meant unemployment - still no. If a genuine effort to find an American worker is made, and no qualified American workers are found (and willing to take the job), then it is appropriate to hire someone on an H1B visa. That is what the law requires. 100% employment in unachievable on a large scale. There will always be some people who are unemployed. Every company has a limited job pool to work with, because only a subset of workers will be willing to work where the job is located. If there are no qualified local candidates, and no one is willing to relocate to fill the job, then H1B is the only option.

H1B visas are not a cost-saving measure. It's intended to be used to allow companies to fill jobs that otherwise would be impossible to fill - and that is all it should be used for. If we allow employers to ignore capable American workers in order to hire a lower-cost foreign worker, then the government is essentially subsidizing that employer by paying unemployment benefits to the American when there is a job he could be doing. Bringing in people to do jobs that when we already have people who are capable of doing them is counter-productive.

Some people choose to be naive and ignore the fact that some companies use H1B visas to save money. The reality is, many of the companies that receive the most H1B visas are Indian companies that offer IT outsourcing services. Their business is based on saving companies money by using lower-cost labor. Do you think those companies are interested in employing Americans at competitive pay rates?

If the requirements were enforced better, there would be more H1B visas available for the people they were intended for - people who would benefit our country far more than a warm body in a low level IT job.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nixium
So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

No. Assuming you meant unemployment - still no. If a genuine effort to find an American worker is made, and no qualified American workers are found (and willing to take the job), then it is appropriate to hire someone on an H1B visa. That is what the law requires. 100% employment in unachievable on a large scale. There will always be some people who are unemployed. Every company has a limited job pool to work with, because only a subset of workers will be willing to work where the job is located. If there are no qualified local candidates, and no one is willing to relocate to fill the job, then H1B is the only option.

H1B visas are not a cost-saving measure. It's intended to be used to allow companies to fill jobs that otherwise would be impossible to fill - and that is all it should be used for. If we allow employers to ignore capable American workers in order to hire a lower-cost foreign worker, then the government is essentially subsidizing that employer by paying unemployment benefits to the American when there is a job he could be doing. Bringing in people to do jobs that when we already have people who are capable of doing them is counter-productive.

Some people choose to be naive and ignore the fact that some companies use H1B visas to save money. The reality is, many of the companies that receive the most H1B visas are Indian companies that offer IT outsourcing services. Their business is based on saving companies money by using lower-cost labor. Do you think those companies are interested in employing Americans at competitive pay rates?

If the requirements were enforced better, there would be more H1B visas available for the people they were intended for - people who would benefit our country far more than a warm body in a low level IT job.

Agree. A lot of people are confused with H1B and outsourcing and think they are one and the same. Yes it is true lot of outsourcing companies use H1B because it is convenient. But there are other type of visa those comapnies can use to bring Indian workers to the US for temporary projects and work. And even if you stop the visa, they can still have Indian workers work remotely. So stopping/reducing H1B isn't really going to solve your outsourcing problem.

Yes IT outsourcing brings down IT worker salary, take away job from qualified American and it is a cost saving measure. But it's like trying to decide putting big tax on imports and protecting American make product. It's a big topic that's completely different from H1B.

You want to stop outsourcing, fine, create another topic, go write to your representative. Just don't confuse the discussion with H1B which if used as intended, brings talented foreigner to America and fill hard to fill jobs, with many of those talented people stay and becomes permanent resident or citizen.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.

No, its cause they are willing to work for less pay. Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

You do a PhD because you *love* research, not for the cash.

Great, I'm going to go ahead and present a strawman. Why don't we pay PhD's minimum wage and see how much they enjoy doing research.

You answered your own question.

Cause you came up with the first strawman lol. Not all PhDs "love" research. They wouldn't give up their shirts/families for research.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nixium
So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

No. Assuming you meant unemployment - still no. If a genuine effort to find an American worker is made, and no qualified American workers are found (and willing to take the job), then it is appropriate to hire someone on an H1B visa. That is what the law requires. 100% employment in unachievable on a large scale. There will always be some people who are unemployed. Every company has a limited job pool to work with, because only a subset of workers will be willing to work where the job is located. If there are no qualified local candidates, and no one is willing to relocate to fill the job, then H1B is the only option.

H1B visas are not a cost-saving measure. It's intended to be used to allow companies to fill jobs that otherwise would be impossible to fill - and that is all it should be used for. If we allow employers to ignore capable American workers in order to hire a lower-cost foreign worker, then the government is essentially subsidizing that employer by paying unemployment benefits to the American when there is a job he could be doing. Bringing in people to do jobs that when we already have people who are capable of doing them is counter-productive.

Some people choose to be naive and ignore the fact that some companies use H1B visas to save money. The reality is, many of the companies that receive the most H1B visas are Indian companies that offer IT outsourcing services. Their business is based on saving companies money by using lower-cost labor. Do you think those companies are interested in employing Americans at competitive pay rates?

If the requirements were enforced better, there would be more H1B visas available for the people they were intended for - people who would benefit our country far more than a warm body in a low level IT job.

Agree. A lot of people are confused with H1B and outsourcing and think they are one and the same. Yes it is true lot of outsourcing companies use H1B because it is convenient. But there are other type of visa those comapnies can use to bring Indian workers to the US for temporary projects and work. And even if you stop the visa, they can still have Indian workers work remotely. So stopping/reducing H1B isn't really going to solve your outsourcing problem.

Yes IT outsourcing brings down IT worker salary, take away job from qualified American. But it's like trying to decide putting big tax on imports and protecting American make product. It's a big topic that's completely different from H1B.

You want to stop outsourcing, fine, create another topic, go write to your representative. Just don't confuse the discussion with H1B which if used as intended, brings talented foreigner to America and fill hard to fill jobs, with many of those talented people stay and becomes permanent resident or citizen.

The problem with H1Bs is that they enable companies to overflood the job market. Around 50% of H1Bs don't have more than a bachelors degree. Companies bring them in to do the grunt work so they can keep CS and IT salaries low.

We can't just let those college graduates who spent tens of thousands of dollars(in alot of cases over 100,000) in their educations flip burgers.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nixium
So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

No. Assuming you meant unemployment - still no. If a genuine effort to find an American worker is made, and no qualified American workers are found (and willing to take the job), then it is appropriate to hire someone on an H1B visa. That is what the law requires. 100% employment in unachievable on a large scale. There will always be some people who are unemployed. Every company has a limited job pool to work with, because only a subset of workers will be willing to work where the job is located. If there are no qualified local candidates, and no one is willing to relocate to fill the job, then H1B is the only option.

H1B visas are not a cost-saving measure. It's intended to be used to allow companies to fill jobs that otherwise would be impossible to fill - and that is all it should be used for. If we allow employers to ignore capable American workers in order to hire a lower-cost foreign worker, then the government is essentially subsidizing that employer by paying unemployment benefits to the American when there is a job he could be doing. Bringing in people to do jobs that when we already have people who are capable of doing them is counter-productive.

Some people choose to be naive and ignore the fact that some companies use H1B visas to save money. The reality is, many of the companies that receive the most H1B visas are Indian companies that offer IT outsourcing services. Their business is based on saving companies money by using lower-cost labor. Do you think those companies are interested in employing Americans at competitive pay rates?

If the requirements were enforced better, there would be more H1B visas available for the people they were intended for - people who would benefit our country far more than a warm body in a low level IT job.

Agree. A lot of people are confused with H1B and outsourcing and think they are one and the same. Yes it is true lot of outsourcing companies use H1B because it is convenient. But there are other type of visa those comapnies can use to bring Indian workers to the US for temporary projects and work. And even if you stop the visa, they can still have Indian workers work remotely. So stopping/reducing H1B isn't really going to solve your outsourcing problem.

Yes IT outsourcing brings down IT worker salary, take away job from qualified American. But it's like trying to decide putting big tax on imports and protecting American make product. It's a big topic that's completely different from H1B.

You want to stop outsourcing, fine, create another topic, go write to your representative. Just don't confuse the discussion with H1B which if used as intended, brings talented foreigner to America and fill hard to fill jobs, with many of those talented people stay and becomes permanent resident or citizen.

The problem with H1Bs is that they enable companies to overflood the job market. Around 50% of H1Bs don't have more than a bachelors degree. Companies bring them in to do the grunt work so they can keep CS and IT salaries low.

We can't just let those college graduates who spent tens of thousands of dollars(in alot of cases over 100,000) in their educations flip burgers.

I already spell it out for you and you still don't seem to understand. As long as you have outsourcing, you will have companies bringing Indian workers in to do the grunt work, H1B or not. They can do the grunt work remotely if they have to. Do you really need a coder sitting in the US? And I don't know where you get H1B people overflood the job market with 65k quota a year. There are 10x of that number of Indian workers working in India office that's keeping CS/IT salary low. You are really targetting the wrong crowd if you are worried about CS/IT salary.

 

[robphelan]

This issue hits really close to home & I've been thinking alot about this for the past few weeks.

My background: I work for a Fortune 50 company that has over 400 people in IS here at HQ alone. I have been developing ERP software for 10 years

I work with a ton of H1Bs - most of them are good or better. However, the influx has done nothing to increase wages - it has done the exact opposite. Median wages are going down and consulting rates have plummeted - at the height of my career, consultants were making 175 - 250/hour. Now, all companies want to pay is 85/hour including expenses - this is a direct result of the MASSIVE influx of H1Bs. It's a simple supply/demand issue.

There is not 1 position here that could not be filled by a US citizen if the appopriate measures were taken - to say so is disingenuous.

And, rchiu is correct to a small point. If you need a website built, then yes, that's easily farmed out. But, there is a great need for having someone onsite to program for you, especially if your business is complex.

I've been on 2 projects already that used outsourced developers. We had to rush to get data, or specs, or other various instructions to them in the middle of the day before they left for the night. Also, we've had lots of problems effectively communicating ideas and processes. You wind up wasting so much time, that it becomes more effective to have someone onsite.

I work right next to this guy & I can barely understand half of what he's saying - he's very competent & very good, but just can't communicate well. The worst part is that our entire dept is moving to a project-based model. Where we would manage projects whose resources are either outsourced or contract positions, so it looks like this dilemma is not going away for me.

 

[robphelan]

also, I think that the quota should float based on the unemployment numbers for that sector.

if IS unemployment goes up, the quota for H1Bs should go down to make room for citizens to take those jobs.

Just try going to Canada & tell the customs officers you're there to do some work. They take protecting their jobs really seriously.

 

[blahblah99]

Originally posted by: robphelan
This issue hits really close to home & I've been thinking alot about this for the past few weeks.

My background: I work for a Fortune 50 company that has over 400 people in IS here at HQ alone. I have been developing ERP software for 10 years

I work with a ton of H1Bs - most of them are good or better. However, the influx has done nothing to increase wages - it has done the exact opposite. Median wages are going down and consulting rates have plummeted - at the height of my career, consultants were making 175 - 250/hour. Now, all companies want to pay is 85/hour including expenses - this is a direct result of the MASSIVE influx of H1Bs. It's a simple supply/demand issue.

There is not 1 position here that could not be filled by a US citizen if the appopriate measures were taken - to say so is disingenuous.

And, rchiu is correct to a small point. If you need a website built, then yes, that's easily farmed out. But, there is a great need for having someone onsite to program for you, especially if your business is complex.

I've been on 2 projects already that used outsourced developers. We had to rush to get data, or specs, or other various instructions to them in the middle of the day before they left for the night. Also, we've had lots of problems effectively communicating ideas and processes. You wind up wasting so much time, that it becomes more effective to have someone onsite.

I work right next to this guy & I can barely understand half of what he's saying - he's very competent & very good, but just can't communicate well. The worst part is that our entire dept is moving to a project-based model. Where we would manage projects whose resources are either outsourced or contract positions, so it looks like this dilemma is not going away for me.

Your dilemma is partly due to H1B, but most of it is due to the economy being in the crap hole. Let me guess, the height of your career was coincidental with the height of the economy?

There's programmers, and then there's good programmers. Anyone can be hired to implement a sort algorithm. Not everyone can implement it efficiently.

Take a look at google - they spend millions of dollars on their H1B visa program a year. Why is that? Why can't they just hire American citizens to do the job?

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.

No, its cause they are willing to work for less pay. Who wants to spend 10 years in higher education just to end up with a job that pays far less than someone who spent 4 years in college.

You do a PhD because you *love* research, not for the cash.

Great, I'm going to go ahead and present a strawman. Why don't we pay PhD's minimum wage and see how much they enjoy doing research.

You answered your own question.

Cause you came up with the first strawman lol. Not all PhDs "love" research. They wouldn't give up their shirts/families for research.

Why stop at that level? You might as well have come out and said how we they should work free and see how much they enjoy doing research.

Only a brain-dead ideologue like yourself wouldn't have gotten what I said.

According to your ludicrous point, there should be no american PhDs or Professors since it isn't worth the cash.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

they have a position waiting for them because they are brilliant interns/students.

they also paid about 10x as much per unit, imo they PAID their right to have a chance to be here.

the real problem is, people aren't studying hard enough to be competitive. I have been in many interviews, and i can honestly say NONE would prefer a H1B visa worker over an american worker. The documentation, hassle etc is just to overwhelming for the company.

we need to stop blaming and start work/study harder, thats the solution to the H1B problem.

The problem is that H1bs are holding the salaries down. Who wants to work 10x as hard to earn 1/2 as much as someone else? College students almost always migrate to majors or professions that tend to pay more. Thats why the relative number of computer science majors has been shrinking. If we flood the supply, less students will want to be comp science majors, creating a downward spiral.

Our PhD system provides a good example of what happens when the pay is low for a position which requires an advanced degree. Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.

Why do a shitload of people want to become doctors? Cause even though you spend 11+ years as a slave, at the end, you get payed a lot of money.

Why don't you just come out and say you're anti immigrant? *any* immigration will cause competition with the native born.

Once you come out and admit that, I no longer have to argue with you, because our viewpoints differ at the core.

If you're OK with immigration, then you might discard the argument in the lines bolded in your quote.

Can you please answer this question? Hopefully, you'd answer the way I'm expecting and I don't have to bother with you anymore.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: nixium
So are you both saying that American employment in high skill industries should be 0% before a single H1B holder gets hired?

No. Assuming you meant unemployment - still no. If a genuine effort to find an American worker is made, and no qualified American workers are found (and willing to take the job), then it is appropriate to hire someone on an H1B visa. That is what the law requires. 100% employment in unachievable on a large scale. There will always be some people who are unemployed. Every company has a limited job pool to work with, because only a subset of workers will be willing to work where the job is located. If there are no qualified local candidates, and no one is willing to relocate to fill the job, then H1B is the only option.

H1B visas are not a cost-saving measure. It's intended to be used to allow companies to fill jobs that otherwise would be impossible to fill - and that is all it should be used for. If we allow employers to ignore capable American workers in order to hire a lower-cost foreign worker, then the government is essentially subsidizing that employer by paying unemployment benefits to the American when there is a job he could be doing. Bringing in people to do jobs that when we already have people who are capable of doing them is counter-productive.

Some people choose to be naive and ignore the fact that some companies use H1B visas to save money. The reality is, many of the companies that receive the most H1B visas are Indian companies that offer IT outsourcing services. Their business is based on saving companies money by using lower-cost labor. Do you think those companies are interested in employing Americans at competitive pay rates?

If the requirements were enforced better, there would be more H1B visas available for the people they were intended for - people who would benefit our country far more than a warm body in a low level IT job.

Agree. A lot of people are confused with H1B and outsourcing and think they are one and the same. Yes it is true lot of outsourcing companies use H1B because it is convenient. But there are other type of visa those comapnies can use to bring Indian workers to the US for temporary projects and work. And even if you stop the visa, they can still have Indian workers work remotely. So stopping/reducing H1B isn't really going to solve your outsourcing problem.

Yes IT outsourcing brings down IT worker salary, take away job from qualified American and it is a cost saving measure. But it's like trying to decide putting big tax on imports and protecting American make product. It's a big topic that's completely different from H1B.

You want to stop outsourcing, fine, create another topic, go write to your representative. Just don't confuse the discussion with H1B which if used as intended, brings talented foreigner to America and fill hard to fill jobs, with many of those talented people stay and becomes permanent resident or citizen.

+1

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: robphelan
This issue hits really close to home & I've been thinking alot about this for the past few weeks.

My background: I work for a Fortune 50 company that has over 400 people in IS here at HQ alone. I have been developing ERP software for 10 years

I work with a ton of H1Bs - most of them are good or better. However, the influx has done nothing to increase wages - it has done the exact opposite. Median wages are going down and consulting rates have plummeted - at the height of my career, consultants were making 175 - 250/hour. Now, all companies want to pay is 85/hour including expenses - this is a direct result of the MASSIVE influx of H1Bs. It's a simple supply/demand issue.

There is not 1 position here that could not be filled by a US citizen if the appopriate measures were taken - to say so is disingenuous.

And, rchiu is correct to a small point. If you need a website built, then yes, that's easily farmed out. But, there is a great need for having someone onsite to program for you, especially if your business is complex.

I've been on 2 projects already that used outsourced developers. We had to rush to get data, or specs, or other various instructions to them in the middle of the day before they left for the night. Also, we've had lots of problems effectively communicating ideas and processes. You wind up wasting so much time, that it becomes more effective to have someone onsite.

I work right next to this guy & I can barely understand half of what he's saying - he's very competent & very good, but just can't communicate well. The worst part is that our entire dept is moving to a project-based model. Where we would manage projects whose resources are either outsourced or contract positions, so it looks like this dilemma is not going away for me.

I think you proved my point that people are confusing H1B with outsourcing. I want to emphasis that outsourcing companies can still bring in people using L1 business visa, (with no quota) H1B is not the only route they can take. All L1 requires is that the employee have been with the outsourcing company for more than a year. The only reason outsourcing companies use H1B is that L1 needs to be extended every year, and like I said already, L1 needs the guy to be with the company for more than a year so they cannot just bring a fresh graduate from India to the US. But it's not something so tough to overcome and if you kill H1B, outsourcing companies will still thrive, while talented foreign graduates from the US won't have any way to get a job in the US because they don't qualify for L1 without being employed for a year first.