H1B workers.

[Hacp]

I have no breaking news to present, but this NY Times article got me thinking. Would giving H1bs 25-50% more pay solve this mess? A green card after x years could also be added.

The argument is since H1Bs bring "special and unique" skillsets they are worth more to companies, thus a higher than average wage (compared to their peers) should be required. It also addresses the complaint that American workers lose their jobs cause of cheap H1bs.

 

[theeedude]

Yes, or require that companies pay $25K/year tax to govt for hiring H1Bs. From what I've seen it's a mixed bag. There are brilliant H1Bs who are actively recruited and command real market wage, and then there are many more mediocre ones whom the companies like because they can't leave until they get a visa, which gives the company a lot of power over them. Of course the flip side of the coin is what the bean counters don't realize, that if a guy is only there for the visa, his main concern is not screwing up and getting fired, so he is not going to be willing to take the kinds of risks that are necessary for most companies to become successful in Silicon Valley. Eventually the company culture will grow exceedingly risk averse, and it will simply stagnate to extinction. I've seen this happen many times, and it's painful to watch.

 

[AreaCode707]

Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

The most important thing is to require employers to drastically overpay for H1Bs. That way, we can be sure that American workers will have first priority for jobs. Most H1bs only have bachelors degrees and disproportionately come from developing countries.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

The most important thing is to require employers to drastically overpay for H1Bs. That way, we can be sure that American workers will have first priority for jobs. Most H1bs only have bachelors degrees and disproportionately come from developing countries.

China and India primarily, and from what I've seen, most have far more than just Bachelors-level education, training and experience. The thing is, H1s cost probably 15-30% more in immigration management expenses already, on top of being hired into the higher-paying roles. I wouldn't argue a pay increase, actually, I just think it's unnecessary; you'd have the same companies bringing in the same workers for the same jobs. So, no significant damage done by a pay increase, but no real benefit either. Sure, jack up costs. *shrug*

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

The most important thing is to require employers to drastically overpay for H1Bs. That way, we can be sure that American workers will have first priority for jobs. Most H1bs only have bachelors degrees and disproportionately come from developing countries.

China and India primarily, and from what I've seen, most have far more than just Bachelors-level education, training and experience. The thing is, H1s cost probably 15-30% more in immigration management expenses already, on top of being hired into the higher-paying roles. I wouldn't argue a pay increase, actually, I just think it's unnecessary; you'd have the same companies bringing in the same workers for the same jobs. So, no significant damage done by a pay increase, but no real benefit either. Sure, jack up costs. *shrug*

Top 10 H1B hires.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H1b_demographics.jpg

Plus, half of foreign workers only have undergraduate degrees. Also, if the H1bs you work with generally get paid more than their peers you wouldn't be affected.

 

[crisscross]

I am quite happy for caps and restrictions on H1B's send them back to India, let them return to India and create jobs here.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Hacp

The argument is since H1Bs bring "special and unique" skillsets they are worth more to companies, thus a higher than average wage (compared to their peers) should be required. It also addresses the complaint that American workers lose their jobs cause of cheap H1bs.

I've got a H1B visa holder that sits one desk over from me. He has no unique set. He is very knowledgeable regarding networking and such... but no more than any U.S. college graduate with a CS degree.

His position is a money maker for Cyber.

I think we need to define the "special and unique" skillsets that truly are understaffed and open those up to H1B's. But for now there is too much abuse of this system.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

The most important thing is to require employers to drastically overpay for H1Bs. That way, we can be sure that American workers will have first priority for jobs. Most H1bs only have bachelors degrees and disproportionately come from developing countries.

Why the fvck would an employer have an H1B if he has to drastically overpay?

 

[Atheus]

Please, please, force all of these fantasic people out of your country. We'll welcome them here with open arms.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

The most important thing is to require employers to drastically overpay for H1Bs. That way, we can be sure that American workers will have first priority for jobs. Most H1bs only have bachelors degrees and disproportionately come from developing countries.

Why the fvck would an employer have an H1B if he has to drastically overpay?

For the same reason that the program exists; H1Bs are only supposed to be used when no suitable American candidate can be found. The company would really have no option if the government made this a law. They wouldn't have a local candidate to turn back to (if they're using the program right) because there would be no person available with that skill set.

Again, I consider this unnecessary because it's redundant, so I'm willing to go along with the hyperbolic suggestion.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Most of the H1s I know already make more than American workers because they're in some of the highest-demand, highest-skill jobs (though their American peers make about the same, with the exception of the relocation, immigration and other expenses associated to H1). I think we should pay for skill and not micro-manage pay based on the person's immigration status. We should continue and improve enforcement of equity pay between employees with the same function, meaning that H1s could not be "cheap labor" compared to Americans. In my experience they're usually more expensive anyway, but I think it's appropriate that we monitor to make sure the cheap labor thing doesn't happen.

Overall we should be recruiting top talent globally; revise the immigration policies to allow perm residency for the top-qualified who would normally come in as H1s and do away with the H1B program.

The most important thing is to require employers to drastically overpay for H1Bs. That way, we can be sure that American workers will have first priority for jobs. Most H1bs only have bachelors degrees and disproportionately come from developing countries.

Why the fvck would an employer have an H1B if he has to drastically overpay?

For the same reason that the program exists; H1Bs are only supposed to be used when no suitable American candidate can be found. The company would really have no option if the government made this a law. They wouldn't have a local candidate to turn back to (if they're using the program right) because there would be no person available with that skill set.

Again, I consider this unnecessary because it's redundant, so I'm willing to go along with the hyperbolic suggestion.

That wouldn't be overpaying, though; any company not under duress (like the head of IT holds hostage all the passwords) will pay what the employee is worth to them. Even if that person makes a lot, if he's saving them $1M/year and costs $250k, he's not overpaid, merely expensive. Of course, with H1B adding to the pool, you increase supply for a specific demand, so labor costs go down. That is, unless the H1B literally is doing something nobody else can, but that's never the case; it always comes down to what the company perceives its reward is based on a certain salary.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

When employing out of school, the only future indicators of success the employer has access to is academic performance and work experience. Are you suggesting that a foreign student who qualifies in these categories should be given less preference than an American citizen?

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

When employing out of school, the only future indicators of success the employer has access to is academic performance and work experience. Are you suggesting that a foreign student who qualifies in these categories should be given less preference than an American citizen?

Not only is she saying it, the law requires it. The foreigner citizen can't be hired unless there are no available Americans who are capable of doing the job.

A recent graduate with a BS is not the type of person who should be receiving an H1B visa. I don't care if we poach the best people from other countries with H1B visas, but right now we don't need H1B visas to fill jobs with warm bodies.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

and it makes 100% no sense to force them to leave.

The issue is that they came on a student visa, not a work visa.

The work that they end up doing can easily be done by a US person.

However, the company wanting an H1B can then manipulate the system to ensure that a US person will not get the job (because of bogus position qualifications). Then the potential H1B can slip into the position.

When employing out of school, the only future indicators of success the employer has access to is academic performance and work experience. Are you suggesting that a foreign student who qualifies in these categories should be given less preference than an American citizen?

A foreign student is there under a student visa not a work visa.
They may have been granted an exemption to work during the school year.

The law requires that the employer take a US person before the foreign person.

The company knows how the law is verified and creates bogus paperwork/requirements to make the position unfilled.

No one checks if the H1B is able to meet the bogus requirements. The rules only state that no US person met the requirements and that the company then is allowed to go outside via H1B to fill the slot.

The government people that are supposed to verify the H1B take the company's word and documentation; most of the times, they are either not qualified to evaluate the paperwork or have no time to do so.

Now where legit shortages are (Medical) this may not occur.

It does occur in the IT world.

 

[piasabird]

All students should have to go back to their country of origin or face a $100,000.00 fine for every year they stay. Plus they should have to pay for their deportation costs.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

they have a position waiting for them because they are brilliant interns/students.

they also paid about 10x as much per unit, imo they PAID their right to have a chance to be here.

the real problem is, people aren't studying hard enough to be competitive. I have been in many interviews, and i can honestly say NONE would prefer a H1B visa worker over an american worker. The documentation, hassle etc is just to overwhelming for the company.

we need to stop blaming and start work/study harder, thats the solution to the H1B problem.

 

[sciwizam]

Originally posted by: piasabird
All students should have to go back to their country of origin or face a $100,000.00 fine for every year they stay. Plus they should have to pay for their deportation costs.

:disgust:

Why don't we do that to the illegal immigrants, that should erase the federal deficit.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: piasabird
All students should have to go back to their country of origin or face a $100,000.00 fine for every year they stay. Plus they should have to pay for their deportation costs.

Shall we do that to all the Americans over here then?

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: JACKDRUID

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Many H1Bs are recruited out of American schools as undergrads.

1-2 years as interns and then when they graduate, they have a position waiting for them.

they have a position waiting for them because they are brilliant interns/students.

they also paid about 10x as much per unit, imo they PAID their right to have a chance to be here.

the real problem is, people aren't studying hard enough to be competitive. I have been in many interviews, and i can honestly say NONE would prefer a H1B visa worker over an american worker. The documentation, hassle etc is just to overwhelming for the company.

we need to stop blaming and start work/study harder, thats the solution to the H1B problem.

The problem is that H1bs are holding the salaries down. Who wants to work 10x as hard to earn 1/2 as much as someone else? College students almost always migrate to majors or professions that tend to pay more. Thats why the relative number of computer science majors has been shrinking. If we flood the supply, less students will want to be comp science majors, creating a downward spiral.

Our PhD system provides a good example of what happens when the pay is low for a position which requires an advanced degree. Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.

Why do a shitload of people want to become doctors? Cause even though you spend 11+ years as a slave, at the end, you get payed a lot of money.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: piasabird
All students should have to go back to their country of origin or face a $100,000.00 fine for every year they stay. Plus they should have to pay for their deportation costs.

Shall we do that to all the Americans over here then?

If they are in your country illegally, yes. If a student comes here on a student visa and graduates, his student visa will expire and he is expected to leave the country. If said student wants to emigrate to the United States (religious or political persecution),he will need to put in the proper paperwork and apply for the proper visa. For H1B visas, If that person is not competing with a U.S. citizen and has a unique skillset that is in demand, then by all means come on in.

 

[JACKDRUID]

Originally posted by: Hacp
Over half of our graduating PhDs are foreign students. Why? Not because American students aren't smart enough. Its cause people looked at other areas (like finance) and saw others spending 1/2 the time studying to make much more than your average post-doc.
.

so you agree with me... they are willing to work harder and study harder.

fyi, I'm CS grad and i do not intend to go into anything else just because of higher earning. i work in development because thats what I love to do.