H1B Visas banned under Tarp

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.

that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.

And did that loss bankrupt your company? I'm guessing no. Now you can go hire two Americans to do the same job. We are after all in the United States of America. Americans come first.

are you that dense? go read your comments again before you post

There are plenty of qualified American technology workers out there. Hell, we probably have some of the best in the world working for companies like Google and Microsoft! If you want to hire them, you'll simply have to give them a better offer than what they're making now.

Of course, most companies don't want to do that if they have a cheaper option available... hence the popularity of H1-B workers. My hunch is that they wouldn't be nearly as popular if there was a $100,000 application fee to get one... maybe they should make that part of the next stimulus package. At that price, it might actually become cheaper recruit some top US talent, or to train existing employees instead of laying them off after replacing their position.

What a load of crap. So if one company make a better offer to get the talent from another company, what happen to the position now left open? Fill it with unqualified people? Yes part of it is cost, but not every company has unlimited budget for qualified people, hiring people away from other companies with above market salary everytime is sure way to get yourself bankrupted.

And sorry sometimes it's not just training. There is a reason not everyone gets an advance degree from top engineering or business program. And there are positions that require people who can think strategically or have the 8+ years in advanced engineering program. A couple of weeks of training cannot replace the years of education or even the prerequist to get into those top programs.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

THIS. For all of you arguing against H1Bs, there are some legitimate arguments out there that the H1B program is not in employers/America's best interest. Focus your arguments on those and let's have a more productive discussion. Hammering on the "cheap labor" idea gets us nowhere. It's untrue and it detracts from the real discussion.

For example:

Are some of you anti-H1B people proposing that the unemployment rate in the US should be 0% before we start bringing in foreign workers to meet demand? Does that mean we owe jobs to the dumbest and least qualified American employees before utilizing the brightest and most qualified foreign employees?

If there are tens of thousands of hard working Americans being laid off from companies like Merick and Microsoft, we need to save their jobs first before allowing any more H1b workers. If the H1bs want to come and live in the US, I'm fine with that. They just need to move to the back of the line. It's 10 million+ deep.

Laying off a software developer 3 should have no impact whatsoever on hiring an ABAP programmer. They do not have similar competencies and the unqualified dev has no claim, regardless of nationality, to a job that they cannot do. The company is not obligated to hire someone they have no use for in place of someone they greatly need. Hypothetically we could have a 50% unemployment rate and I would still advocate an H1B candidate over US candidates if the H1B candidate had 10 years experience in a crucial job and not one of the millions of Americans were similarly qualified.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

THIS. For all of you arguing against H1Bs, there are some legitimate arguments out there that the H1B program is not in employers/America's best interest. Focus your arguments on those and let's have a more productive discussion. Hammering on the "cheap labor" idea gets us nowhere. It's untrue and it detracts from the real discussion.

For example:

Are some of you anti-H1B people proposing that the unemployment rate in the US should be 0% before we start bringing in foreign workers to meet demand? Does that mean we owe jobs to the dumbest and least qualified American employees before utilizing the brightest and most qualified foreign employees?

This is unequivocally wrong. Anyone that says US companies aren't leveraging H1Bs due to reduced cost doesn't have enough experience at a decision-making level.

I can't name names, but I can tell you through my company I have direct experience with this cost-reducing measure at some of the largest financial companies in the US (some of which went belly up recently), software companies, etc. In some cases, there were specific mandates to leverage H1Bs due to reduced cost and nothing more; it was so specific in fact that group directors would have to submit a justification to use on-shore (and thus, in most cases, more expensive) resources that was reviewed by a vendor board.

In other cases, I've witnessed first hand the exploitation that H1B resources have suffered. My wife was an H1B for years, my brother-in-law is an H1B that works with Wipro, another family member is with Satyam, still others with Hexaware. I'm sometimes too big of a loud mouth on these forums, but the manner in which it's handled has always frustrated me. New grads are brought into the fold, thrown onto projects at large US companies and billed at a blended rate (a strategy used by a lot of firms; a lot of times it makes sense, other times it's to obfuscate the balancing of resources) which still undercuts many US firms by 10% or more.

And I'm sure you're familiar with these practically invisible Indian "companies" which do nothing more than hold H1Bs on behalf of large companies that don't want the stigma of H1B workers. If not, then you're missing a lot of the picture. These H1B workers are often brought onto projects using fabricated backgrounds, billed at a rate sometimes 400% or more than the rate they actually receive. These H1Bs are too afraid of losing their status to contradict their employers.

This isn't tin-foil hat business. This is the way the industry works. The program has some serious problems, and India recognizes this as well. In India itself you see a lot of "finishing schools" where new grads are thrown into extra training to make it appear as though they have the experience the company says they do. In some cases, these finishing schools are as crooked as the companies, in other cases they offer a legitimate service.

I hate to offer such a negative contradiction. I'm a large supporter of the H1B program, but the attractive cost-reduction has led myopic company leaders into exclusive contracts to benefit their near-term financial goals while missing the bigger picture.

Good post. I agree that sometimes H1B is exploited by these companies to lower their costs. However the issue lies in the enforcement of the law. The immigration department should be smarter and MUCH more selective in granting the H1B.
A petition for a entry level software engineer making 35K a year should probably be rejected, but a petition for a PHD researcher under grants should be granted instantly. Heck even the PHD guy should get a green card right after he graduates.

US should be way wore lenient to international students that finish their educations here, especially from highly desirable fields which are lacking in qualified workers. Masters and PHD graduates should even get their green cards instantly. Most of the master or phd international students are here on a scholarship (also a portion of the undergraduates). They cannot get a loan to finance their degrees, so these are some of the best of the best people that are graduating. It is no brainer to give them permission to stay in the states if they want to.

Good dialogue in both posts; thanks for lending your views and experience to the thread. It's been my experience that the H1B program is not often mis-used; if your experience is that it is nearly always misused than the truth probably exists somewhere in the middle. Nice to hear from some folks who have firsthand knowledge rather than some of the fear-mongering kiddies elsewhere in the thread.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.

that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.

And did that loss bankrupt your company? I'm guessing no. Now you can go hire two Americans to do the same job. We are after all in the United States of America. Americans come first.

are you that dense? go read your comments again before you post

There are plenty of qualified American technology workers out there. Hell, we probably have some of the best in the world working for companies like Google and Microsoft! If you want to hire them, you'll simply have to give them a better offer than what they're making now.

Of course, most companies don't want to do that if they have a cheaper option available... hence the popularity of H1-B workers. My hunch is that they wouldn't be nearly as popular if there was a $100,000 application fee to get one... maybe they should make that part of the next stimulus package. At that price, it might actually become cheaper recruit some top US talent, or to train existing employees instead of laying them off after replacing their position.

If you have 100 jobs and only 70 workers then you wind up perpetually inflating salaries and perpetually understaffing some of those jobs. Having a closed-system approach isn't healthy for companies or employees.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Good dialogue in both posts; thanks for lending your views and experience to the thread. It's been my experience that the H1B program is not often mis-used; if your experience is that it is nearly always misused than the truth probably exists somewhere in the middle. Nice to hear from some folks who have firsthand knowledge rather than some of the fear-mongering kiddies elsewhere in the thread.

Nevermind that those "fear-mongering kiddies" posted factual information that is backed up by Descartes's post. You just assume that we have no experience with H-1B visas, and that anyone without first-hand experience couldn't possibly know anything about the system. :roll:

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Good dialogue in both posts; thanks for lending your views and experience to the thread. It's been my experience that the H1B program is not often mis-used; if your experience is that it is nearly always misused than the truth probably exists somewhere in the middle. Nice to hear from some folks who have firsthand knowledge rather than some of the fear-mongering kiddies elsewhere in the thread.

Nevermind that those "fear-mongering kiddies" posted factual information that is backed up by Descartes's post. You just assume that we have no experience with H-1B visas, and that anyone without first-hand experience couldn't possibly know anything about the system. :roll:

I didn't specifically call you out; if you class yourself with the "kiddies" because I didn't specifically call you out as a good poster it is you doing that, not me. The kiddies are posters like piasabird, who offer commentary without any support whatsoever.

Why, when you're not offended by me expressing my opinion, do you roll eyes when I express some respect and agreement with an opinion that somewhat matches yours? You get further converting your opponents when you reinforce their acquiescence to your point of view.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Good dialogue in both posts; thanks for lending your views and experience to the thread. It's been my experience that the H1B program is not often mis-used; if your experience is that it is nearly always misused than the truth probably exists somewhere in the middle. Nice to hear from some folks who have firsthand knowledge rather than some of the fear-mongering kiddies elsewhere in the thread.

Nevermind that those "fear-mongering kiddies" posted factual information that is backed up by Descartes's post. You just assume that we have no experience with H-1B visas, and that anyone without first-hand experience couldn't possibly know anything about the system. :roll:

Heh, we don't assume, we know that most you people have no experience with H1B, and even those people like Descartes have very narrow experience and point of view dealing soley with H1B from those Indian outsourcing companies.

You have to understand H1B and all immigration issue is the number 1 concern for anyone who went through the immigration process in the US. This issue determine if we stay or leave the US when alot of us have established a family, home here. There is nothing more pressing or serious then this.

And not only we go through this personally, people in our family, our social circle, almost everyone go through the same process and it is often the number 1 topic of discussion as well. Many of us are as knowledgable as immigration lawyers because the research we have done, the information we have to gather to ensure we (and our wife, our kids) can stay here legally. And if you went through the process, you'd know how much research and information gathering I am talking about.

So until you go through the same process, have the same exposure, don't assume you know the system as well as we do.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I didn't specifically call you out; if you class yourself with the "kiddies" because I didn't specifically call you out as a good poster it is you doing that, not me. The kiddies are posters like piasabird, who offer commentary without any support whatsoever.

Why, when you're not offended by me expressing my opinion, do you roll eyes when I express some respect and agreement with an opinion that somewhat matches yours? You get further converting your opponents when you reinforce their acquiescence to your point of view.

When you list a group of people who you feel made "intelligent" posts, it implies that you feel the opposite about the rest of the posts. It adds nothing to the discussion. Nor does the "kiddies" comment.

Originally posted by: rchiu

Heh, we don't assume, we know that most you people have no experience with H1B, and even those people like Descartes have very narrow experience and point of view dealing soley with H1B from those Indian outsourcing companies.

You have to understand H1B and all immigration issue is the number 1 concern for anyone who went through the immigration process in the US. This issue determine if we stay or leave the US when alot of us have established a family, home here. There is nothing more pressing or serious then this.

And not only we go through this personally, people in our family, our social circle, almost everyone go through the same process and it is often the number 1 topic of discussion as well. Many of us are as knowledgable as immigration lawyers because the research we have done, the information we have to gather to ensure we (and our wife, our kids) can stay here legally. And if you went through the process, you'd know how much research and information gathering I am talking about.

So until you go through the same process, have the same exposure, don't assume you know the system as well as we do.

I haven't even commented on people like you, I've only commented on the abuses of the system. I chose my words carefully to avoid implying that we don't need any H-1B workers. I don't need to have gone through the system to recognizes the abuses that I've seen at companies I've worked for and companies I've dealt with.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

THIS. For all of you arguing against H1Bs, there are some legitimate arguments out there that the H1B program is not in employers/America's best interest. Focus your arguments on those and let's have a more productive discussion. Hammering on the "cheap labor" idea gets us nowhere. It's untrue and it detracts from the real discussion.

For example:

Are some of you anti-H1B people proposing that the unemployment rate in the US should be 0% before we start bringing in foreign workers to meet demand? Does that mean we owe jobs to the dumbest and least qualified American employees before utilizing the brightest and most qualified foreign employees?

This is unequivocally wrong. Anyone that says US companies aren't leveraging H1Bs due to reduced cost doesn't have enough experience at a decision-making level.

I can't name names, but I can tell you through my company I have direct experience with this cost-reducing measure at some of the largest financial companies in the US (some of which went belly up recently), software companies, etc. In some cases, there were specific mandates to leverage H1Bs due to reduced cost and nothing more; it was so specific in fact that group directors would have to submit a justification to use on-shore (and thus, in most cases, more expensive) resources that was reviewed by a vendor board.

In other cases, I've witnessed first hand the exploitation that H1B resources have suffered. My wife was an H1B for years, my brother-in-law is an H1B that works with Wipro, another family member is with Satyam, still others with Hexaware. I'm sometimes too big of a loud mouth on these forums, but the manner in which it's handled has always frustrated me. New grads are brought into the fold, thrown onto projects at large US companies and billed at a blended rate (a strategy used by a lot of firms; a lot of times it makes sense, other times it's to obfuscate the balancing of resources) which still undercuts many US firms by 10% or more.

And I'm sure you're familiar with these practically invisible Indian "companies" which do nothing more than hold H1Bs on behalf of large companies that don't want the stigma of H1B workers. If not, then you're missing a lot of the picture. These H1B workers are often brought onto projects using fabricated backgrounds, billed at a rate sometimes 400% or more than the rate they actually receive. These H1Bs are too afraid of losing their status to contradict their employers.

This isn't tin-foil hat business. This is the way the industry works. The program has some serious problems, and India recognizes this as well. In India itself you see a lot of "finishing schools" where new grads are thrown into extra training to make it appear as though they have the experience the company says they do. In some cases, these finishing schools are as crooked as the companies, in other cases they offer a legitimate service.

I hate to offer such a negative contradiction. I'm a large supporter of the H1B program, but the attractive cost-reduction has led myopic company leaders into exclusive contracts to benefit their near-term financial goals while missing the bigger picture.

You are focusing on a very narrow minority of H1B visas in Indian outsourcing. Though this does lower the average salaries of H1B holders, it is not in any way a broad cross-section of H1B holders. I'm all to familiar with finishing schools and IT sweatshops being Indian myself but they are still a distinct minority amongst H1B holders. And before you make any more generalizations about people in a decisionmaking capacity, I have been hiring H1Bs into a pretty well-known company for the last 6 years.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

Many Americans are only 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation descendants of foreigners. Your patriotism reeks of ignorance.

If they're hired here, then they are paid US wages, and taxed. The money and talent stays here. This is better than offshoring.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

THIS. For all of you arguing against H1Bs, there are some legitimate arguments out there that the H1B program is not in employers/America's best interest. Focus your arguments on those and let's have a more productive discussion. Hammering on the "cheap labor" idea gets us nowhere. It's untrue and it detracts from the real discussion.

For example:

Are some of you anti-H1B people proposing that the unemployment rate in the US should be 0% before we start bringing in foreign workers to meet demand? Does that mean we owe jobs to the dumbest and least qualified American employees before utilizing the brightest and most qualified foreign employees?

This is unequivocally wrong. Anyone that says US companies aren't leveraging H1Bs due to reduced cost doesn't have enough experience at a decision-making level.

I can't name names, but I can tell you through my company I have direct experience with this cost-reducing measure at some of the largest financial companies in the US (some of which went belly up recently), software companies, etc. In some cases, there were specific mandates to leverage H1Bs due to reduced cost and nothing more; it was so specific in fact that group directors would have to submit a justification to use on-shore (and thus, in most cases, more expensive) resources that was reviewed by a vendor board.

In other cases, I've witnessed first hand the exploitation that H1B resources have suffered. My wife was an H1B for years, my brother-in-law is an H1B that works with Wipro, another family member is with Satyam, still others with Hexaware. I'm sometimes too big of a loud mouth on these forums, but the manner in which it's handled has always frustrated me. New grads are brought into the fold, thrown onto projects at large US companies and billed at a blended rate (a strategy used by a lot of firms; a lot of times it makes sense, other times it's to obfuscate the balancing of resources) which still undercuts many US firms by 10% or more.

And I'm sure you're familiar with these practically invisible Indian "companies" which do nothing more than hold H1Bs on behalf of large companies that don't want the stigma of H1B workers. If not, then you're missing a lot of the picture. These H1B workers are often brought onto projects using fabricated backgrounds, billed at a rate sometimes 400% or more than the rate they actually receive. These H1Bs are too afraid of losing their status to contradict their employers.

This isn't tin-foil hat business. This is the way the industry works. The program has some serious problems, and India recognizes this as well. In India itself you see a lot of "finishing schools" where new grads are thrown into extra training to make it appear as though they have the experience the company says they do. In some cases, these finishing schools are as crooked as the companies, in other cases they offer a legitimate service.

I hate to offer such a negative contradiction. I'm a large supporter of the H1B program, but the attractive cost-reduction has led myopic company leaders into exclusive contracts to benefit their near-term financial goals while missing the bigger picture.

You are focusing on a very narrow minority of H1B visas in Indian outsourcing. Though this does lower the average salaries of H1B holders, it is not in any way a broad cross-section of H1B holders. I'm all to familiar with finishing schools and IT sweatshops being Indian myself but they are still a distinct minority amongst H1B holders. And before you make any more generalizations about people in a decisionmaking capacity, I have been hiring H1Bs into a pretty well-known company for the last 6 years.

One should wonder if that many postiions are open; what the qualifications are that allow H1B people to get them and not US people.

How active is the employer in recruiting qualified US people.
What type of qualifications are being posted that exclude qualified people.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If these people are so valuable, make them citizens and offer them the protection that citizens get, rather than give the H1B sponsor the threat of deportation to keep these people in line. As long as they're here on work visas, they're indentured servants and clearly NOT as valuable as an equally capable US citizen.

Not all of them want to be US citizens. Many of them want to return to their home countries after getting experience and cash here. Some just aren't as enamored of the US as you are. AFAIK, the US does not allow dual citizenship for adults.

The US policy toward immigrants really makes it difficult for even the best and brightest to work here.

The protectionist measure proposed won't do anything to curb H1B abuses, but will chase off some of the world's best workers. If you want to reform the H1B process, then this is not the way to do it.

Shouldn't a nation implement policies to drain the world's best talent from other countries, as opposed to chasing them off?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: BoberFett
If these people are so valuable, make them citizens and offer them the protection that citizens get, rather than give the H1B sponsor the threat of deportation to keep these people in line. As long as they're here on work visas, they're indentured servants and clearly NOT as valuable as an equally capable US citizen.

Not all of them want to be US citizens. Many of them want to return to their home countries after getting experience and cash here. Some just aren't as enamored of the US as you are. AFAIK, the US does not allow dual citizenship for adults.

The US policy toward immigrants really makes it difficult for even the best and brightest to work here.

The protectionist measure proposed won't do anything to curb H1B abuses, but will chase off some of the world's best workers. If you want to reform the H1B process, then this is not the way to do it.

Shouldn't a nation implement policies to drain the world's best talent from other countries, as opposed to chasing them off?

So tell me why I should care if we send people packing who apparently don't want to be here anyway?

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

Agreed.

 

[nixium]

Just curious, are all of you who are opposed to H1B visas opposed to any form of legalization for illegal immigrants as well? If not, how do you resolve the disconnect?

I'll describe the problem as I see it. There are two separate issues here:

1. Abuse of H1 visas - This follows from Descartes's post. There is a section of people - Indian outsourcing companies, shady body shops, etc that are undeniably exploiting these visas.

2. US College graduates/skilled workers from abroad - These are the people described by rchiu, zomb13, etc. They are pretty much treated on par with American workers. JS80 is mentioning them when he talks about hiring based on talent and not price point. If you look at a Master's or PhD graduating class, you can usually find it mostly composed of foreigners; these are the ones that companies want to keep.

However, the bottom line is this. By introducing the second section of people, you are broadening the labor pool. This would consist of cases similar to what AreaCode707 mentioned - people with extremely specific skills that can't be found easily. However, it would also include generally smart people who are really good at what they do. If a citizen gets a grad degree at a top 10 college, and he has classmates that are foreign, then make no mistake - they are going to be competing with him. I don't know what the specific effect on wages is going to be, but it's probably going to depress them slightly. It might lead to issues such as age discrimination.

So you basically need to ask yourself - are you OK with allowing smart people from abroad to study at your universities and compete with citizens? Or even hiring smart people from world class universities abroad? You will be expanding the supply pool, but you will encouraging the "best and brightest" (such an overused phrase) to contribute to the american market. You need to compare the advantages and disadvantages, and resolve it in your mind.

That's the crux of the point. If you aren't OK with it, then there's no point with continuing this argument. If you're OK with it, then we can revisit the issue to see how to stem the abuses that mugs, et al are referring to.

Note that *any* immigration, unless your population growth is zero, is going to drive competition for citizens. If your main worry is keeping American workers employed, then you should focus on shutting down *all* immigration.

And to the H1B naysayers - might I point out that you're worrying about a candle flame when the entire house is ablaze? Compared to the millions flowing across the porous borders, and the fact that about 60% of all legal immigration is family based - yes, family based, with no skill sets necessary, only a family relation - the H1B problem is relatively minor. In fact, the green card lottery - 50,000 per year - provides *permanent* residency to randomly selected people who don't have to meet any level of stringent qualifications. H1Bs are temporary visas. If you're that outraged over importing code monkeys who work for pennies, perhaps you might be even more outraged over allowing 50,000 permanent residents - who by the way, don't have jobs before coming here, and are going to compete with local citizens.

And oh, those outraged over that video - it does not deal with H1B visas. That video is dealing with PERM, applicable to permanent residency. That's an entirely different topic.

 

[EagleKeeper]

As stated before

The H1B when used as intended is valuable - to backfill for slots that US workers do not have the quals for or there is not enough US workers to meet the demand.

When the system is gamed to prefer H1B or US then I have a problem.
And the gaming does exist; 10-15 years ago (personal experience) and now (from others within this thread).

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Mani

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

THIS. For all of you arguing against H1Bs, there are some legitimate arguments out there that the H1B program is not in employers/America's best interest. Focus your arguments on those and let's have a more productive discussion. Hammering on the "cheap labor" idea gets us nowhere. It's untrue and it detracts from the real discussion.

For example:

Are some of you anti-H1B people proposing that the unemployment rate in the US should be 0% before we start bringing in foreign workers to meet demand? Does that mean we owe jobs to the dumbest and least qualified American employees before utilizing the brightest and most qualified foreign employees?

This is unequivocally wrong. Anyone that says US companies aren't leveraging H1Bs due to reduced cost doesn't have enough experience at a decision-making level.

I can't name names, but I can tell you through my company I have direct experience with this cost-reducing measure at some of the largest financial companies in the US (some of which went belly up recently), software companies, etc. In some cases, there were specific mandates to leverage H1Bs due to reduced cost and nothing more; it was so specific in fact that group directors would have to submit a justification to use on-shore (and thus, in most cases, more expensive) resources that was reviewed by a vendor board.

In other cases, I've witnessed first hand the exploitation that H1B resources have suffered. My wife was an H1B for years, my brother-in-law is an H1B that works with Wipro, another family member is with Satyam, still others with Hexaware. I'm sometimes too big of a loud mouth on these forums, but the manner in which it's handled has always frustrated me. New grads are brought into the fold, thrown onto projects at large US companies and billed at a blended rate (a strategy used by a lot of firms; a lot of times it makes sense, other times it's to obfuscate the balancing of resources) which still undercuts many US firms by 10% or more.

And I'm sure you're familiar with these practically invisible Indian "companies" which do nothing more than hold H1Bs on behalf of large companies that don't want the stigma of H1B workers. If not, then you're missing a lot of the picture. These H1B workers are often brought onto projects using fabricated backgrounds, billed at a rate sometimes 400% or more than the rate they actually receive. These H1Bs are too afraid of losing their status to contradict their employers.

This isn't tin-foil hat business. This is the way the industry works. The program has some serious problems, and India recognizes this as well. In India itself you see a lot of "finishing schools" where new grads are thrown into extra training to make it appear as though they have the experience the company says they do. In some cases, these finishing schools are as crooked as the companies, in other cases they offer a legitimate service.

I hate to offer such a negative contradiction. I'm a large supporter of the H1B program, but the attractive cost-reduction has led myopic company leaders into exclusive contracts to benefit their near-term financial goals while missing the bigger picture.

You are focusing on a very narrow minority of H1B visas in Indian outsourcing. Though this does lower the average salaries of H1B holders, it is not in any way a broad cross-section of H1B holders. I'm all to familiar with finishing schools and IT sweatshops being Indian myself but they are still a distinct minority amongst H1B holders. And before you make any more generalizations about people in a decisionmaking capacity, I have been hiring H1Bs into a pretty well-known company for the last 6 years.

One should wonder if that many postiions are open; what the qualifications are that allow H1B people to get them and not US people.

How active is the employer in recruiting qualified US people.
What type of qualifications are being posted that exclude qualified people.

Very active. The vast majority of our hires are US citizens/ green card holders - since H1Bs are more expensive for us to hire (sponsorship, law firm involvement, etc.) they are only hired when we are need specific skillset/ experience not available otherwise in the applicant pool. This is a fortune 50 company so I can tell you we are not unique in any of this.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Back in the 80 & 90s, you would see ads from companies on the other side of the country showing up in the major metro papers.

They were unable to get talent in the local area and started poaching in other areas.

Very seldom do you see Help Wanted ads for positions/companies now outside your local area.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So tell me why I should care if we send people packing who apparently don't want to be here anyway?

Obviously, the H1B applicants WANT to be here. Some of them just don't want to stay here forever.

They're more qualified than American workers (assuming a true H1B situation). While they're here, they produce more efficiently than an American worker would in the same job, and a foreign company does not have access to their skills. They produce wealth, and get taxed on it. They contribute a lot more to the American economy by working here, than by working in another country.

In other words, letting an H1B work here, helps the US and hurts the competition. Putting an unqualified American worker in the same job does the opposite.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: tk149

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So tell me why I should care if we send people packing who apparently don't want to be here anyway?

Obviously, the H1B applicants WANT to be here. Some of them just don't want to stay here forever.

They're more qualified than American workers (assuming a true H1B situation). While they're here, they produce more efficiently than an American worker would in the same job, and a foreign company does not have access to their skills. They produce wealth, and get taxed on it. They contribute a lot more to the American economy by working here, than by working in another country.

In other words, letting an H1B work here, helps the US and hurts the competition. Putting an unqualified American worker in the same job does the opposite.

So we'll train them, give them practical experience, pay them well, then they go home leaving us with... a need for another H1B worker.

If a company needs talent, maybe they need to cultivate it rather than expect everything to come in a nice neat package.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Back in the 80 & 90s, you would see ads from companies on the other side of the country showing up in the major metro papers.

They were unable to get talent in the local area and started poaching in other areas.

Very seldom do you see Help Wanted ads for positions/companies now outside your local area.

Nowadays if you're willing to relocate you go online and search in your desired area. It makes advertising in another area superfluous; if I'm in Seattle and will relocate it's much cheaper to advertise in the Seattle market and let relo-willing employees contact me, rather than try to post a job at $50-250/posting in every other major metro market.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: z0mb13
halik please find a PHD graduate that is working at undergraduate salaries.

There are thousands of them. Postdocs in chemistry, biology, contract teachers in many universities, and similar positions that require PhD but pay $20-$25,000 per year. You haven't been out much, have you?

H1B hiring is completely and irrevocably corrupt and screwed up. In every big city there are regular seminars on how to shape the job offer to make it fit a particular candidate, and to avoid finding citizens or permanent residents.

z0mb13, you are either totally clueless about how the process works, or are outright lying in your posts.

The only places where H1B more or less works as intended are government-funded labs, universities, etc, and mostly because they don't have much of a financial gain to offer the job to a foreigner. Virtually all private companies are shamelessly lying in their H1B applications.

It is a high time for the H1B program to be scrapped, or at least limited only to research institutions, where often there are truly a handful of people who can do the job. These days most H1Bs go to coders and similar positions. What a joke.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: fornax

Originally posted by: z0mb13
halik please find a PHD graduate that is working at undergraduate salaries.

There are thousands of them. Postdocs in chemistry, biology, contract teachers in many universities, and similar positions that require PhD but pay $20-$25,000 per year. You haven't been out much, have you?

H1B hiring is completely and irrevocably corrupt and screwed up. In every big city there are regular seminars on how to shape the job offer to make it fit a particular candidate, and to avoid finding citizens or permanent residents.

z0mb13, you are either totally clueless about how the process works, or are outright lying in your posts.

The only places where H1B more or less works as intended are government-funded labs, universities, etc, and mostly because they don't have much of a financial gain to offer the job to a foreigner. Virtually all private companies are shamelessly lying in their H1B applications.

It is a high time for the H1B program to be scrapped, or at least limited only to research institutions, where often there are truly a handful of people who can do the job. These days most H1Bs go to coders and similar positions. What a joke.

I have worked for two Fortune 500 companies, with intimate knowledge of the H1B program in one and relatively good knowledge of the H1B program in the other, and both of those companies adhere not only to the letter but also to the spirit of the law in their H1B use and hiring. Not only that, they both far prefer to use US nationals in their jobs, not because of any patriotic spirit but because it's a significantly better business decision for them when you look at the bottom line.

I'm not arguing that some companies shameless lie in their H1B applications, but it is far from being "virtually all". And H1Bs do and should apply to more than just research institutions. Go back to my earlier example of ABAP. That's a coding job, but you won't find many US candidates with those skills.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

Ha-ha, good joke! How is the weather on your planet?

What you wrote is true for about 10%-15% of H1Bs.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I'm not arguing that some companies shameless lie in their H1B applications, but it is far from being "virtually all". And H1Bs do and should apply to more than just research institutions. Go back to my earlier example of ABAP. That's a coding job, but you won't find many US candidates with those skills.

Well, I took a quick look at what ABAP is and it looks like it's a high-level report language with a structure similar to that of many common programming languages. I'd say a competent C++ coder can be trained in ABAP in a few weeks time. So why hasn't your company done that? You'll train an ABAP programmer faster than it takes to get one under H1B.