[H] slams nVidia, Kyle fed up

[chsh1ca]

Originally posted by: Regs
You want to buy nVidia products and let them treat you like a dumb monkey be my guest.

Wow excellent way to demonstrate you didn't bother to actually take 2 minutes and read what I posted.

Originally posted by: Shady
c'mon now. you're saying that as long as you havent paid for the card it is ok?

Can you people not read or something? Where did I say it was okay or good? What I said what I don't see where you have much right being upset by something utterly unrelated to you. I don't get why it's such a shock to people.

people use benchmarks as a way of comparing two products and deciding which is better. the bottom line is that fudging benchmarks is essentially lying to the consumer. and if a company is lying to the consumer, they are showing absoluetly no respect for them. did other companies do it? yes. does that make it ok for nvidia to do it? absolutely not. damn, Ati learned their lesson after optimizinf for quake III but how many times is it gonna take for nvidia to learn?

Okay, let me ask both of you (Shady and Regz) you something, following your logic. If people use benchmarks as a way of comparing the two cards, and everyone is such an enlightened consumer nowadays, then why has anyone bought an FX5900, FX5900Ultra, or FX5600 Rev1? To a lot of people, they never hear about the lying/cheating, or they just don't care.

How many people care if you get 5000 3dmarks or 3000 3dmarks? Very few people, and those people who do are extremely silly. 3dmark2003 is an approximation, a synthetic benchmark designed to test *THEORETICAL* DirectX 9 performance. When has Futuremark's benchmarks ever proven to be 100% correct on the cards' real world performance in relation to their benchmarks?

My point is that only a very small group of people care, but more than that small group actually buy the cards. It's wonderful and terrific that you believe buyers are educating themselves more, but it is irrelevant to what I said, which is, simply put, I don't really quite get why anyone is surprised at this type of behaviour coming from a manufacturer. Someone like Rollo has every right to feel jilted, especially after they did what they did with removing the 5800 from the site and devaluing his brand new card. Someone like Regz, who went out and bought another card, really doesn't have a reason to comment on the situation I don't think. I'm actually kind of glad with the news that has come out recently, because while I had some contemplation going in to picking up a Radeon 9600Pro/9700NP, I was also seriously considering the Rev2 FX5600 for its superior linux driver support. I've staved off my purchase for now. I would love a radeon. Do I think everyone should be surprised? Hell no! Do I think what nVidia has done is fair and right? I have no idea how you guys came up with that from my post.

 

[nemesismk2]

Originally posted by: Genx87
God people are still stuck on this same old subject?
Hey did anybody see the benchmarks at aces hardware? Futuremarks 3dmark is about as valuable for showing your computers potential game performance as my grandmother being a meteorologist.

And Kyle good old Kyle. His adolescent mentality gets the best of him everytime. He swings on issues worse than Al Snore.
One day he cries about Nvidia, the next he cries for them.

well said

 

[Corporate Thug]

chsh1ca, check out this real life scenario: my brother wanted to get a new video card for his computer. by no means is he a computer person. he knows what a mobo, cpu, ram, etc... is BUT he isnt into it to the point where he knows about optimization. so what does he do? go to google and types in 5900 ultra review. WOW is he suprised. it scored soooo much better than a 9800 pro on 3dmark! does my brother know what 3dmark really is or how valid it is? not really, the website he reads the review from just says that it is a standard test the measures the strength of the VPU. not knowing about any sort of optimization, he wants to pass up a 9800 pro for a cheaper price cuz it is so much worse than a 5900 ultra in 3dmark. fortunately, i stopped him in time before he ordered and i showed him all the optimization articles. and this is how it effects people who dont know what 3dmark is supposed to do.


the other point is the way nvidia handled the situation. i mean companies make mistakes, like you said. cheating or optimization is nothing new but it the way nvidia reacted to the situation that was disgusting. they go on to say how 3dmark is not a legit benchmark, etc... and now there are rumors they want to join the beta again? those are just rumors so i'll just leave it at that. however, how hard would it be for nvida to just make an apology?

 

[chsh1ca]

Shady, I don't disagree with the fact that it will affect some people. However, what you say would tend to disagree with Regz' statement that there is as much change going on carpe-diem wise than there actually is. I mean, he's a guy who knows someone technical and he was going to just order it anyway, that should tell you something right there.

I'm not defending nVidia's actions at all. Like I said, I'm shocked that so many act surprised about it.

 

[NicColt]

>now it seems he feels betrayed by nVidia because he now knows the truth...

LOL I predicted this back in June.
03 June 2003 -> "Futuremark claims that Nvidia is not cheating"

His August PR check probably bounced, like someone said in another forum "what goes around comes around". Nvidia had to choose between Kyle and Futuremark and they need futuremark more than they need Kyle, of course he was stabbed in the back. Like the saying goes "it's nice to have friends in low places and nividia used him like a puppet. He's just now realizing it....

P.S. HEY Kyle you gona change those DOOM III numbers now ?

 

[nRollo]

We are all forgetting the most important aspect of this:
nVidia screwed Rollo!

LOL- for some people, this is probably good enough reason to buy a 5900.

 

[Crapgame]

Bad press gets web hits, web hits make money. The amount of dirt tossing is getting stupid, if I beleaved half of what I've read on the net over the past two weeks I'de beleave that nV is about two card sales away from closing up shop and if god himself doesnt fab the next AMD chip that company is gone too. The term "in trouble" is tossed around in almost every review I've read this summer...

BS!

Lets face it, most of us have no brand loyalty. We might hate the crap out of a company or two in particular (mine would be Intel and Creative) but we'de drop the alternative in a heartbeat if something better from a company we didnt hate popped up. Since we seem to work like that from my observation any bashing is instant celebrity, w00t look how bad the P4 is without SECC2 in GL on a cold day with an AudigyII running a gameport joystick and a parakeets beak stuffed in the USB port *adds to favorites and posts links*. It's silly and I dont want to hear it even though I know I can fall into it too.

Get back to telling me what reg string I can alter to fix a little glitch in a certain game or what driver combinations work with what on what hardware, enough with the dragged out soap operas.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: Rollo
We are all forgetting the most important aspect of this:
nVidia screwed Rollo!

LOL- for some people, this is probably good enough reason to buy a 5900.

It's good enough reason for me

Oh, and FYI, the 5800 page is still on nvidia.com they just don't list it in the product menu.

 

[BOSS10L]

It seems as though it is official, Nvidia has joined the Futuremark Beta Team:

http://news.com.com/2100-1040_3-5062667.html?tag=fd_top

I have to agree with Shady06, there are too many people out there that just don't know enough and may/will be duped into buying a card based on incomplete/false information. It's actually quite laudable considering the average PC user (hell, even the average PC gamer) will never use a VPU to it's full potential, so companies like Nvidia use this to bilk them out of extra cash when they could have gotten away using another card (regardless of what brand).

I am not niaeve enough to think that we've never been lied to as consumers. Hell, our own government can't get their facts straight (WMD anyone?), but Nvidia really screwed a lot of people over. Consumers like Rollo who dished out the cold hard cash only to be dismissed by Nvidia after the fact. Kevin is correct though, our only recourse is to vote with our wallets.

I've been an Nvidia only guy for the past 5+ years, but the whole 5800 debacle really made me think this time around and I'm glad I went with an ATI 9800 Pro. Unless Nvidia shows me a reason not to, I will continue to be an ATI supporter.

 

[nRollo]

I know it's still there, but nonetheless it's pretty disheartening you have to search on it to find it. The other products are linked?

If I were nVidia, I'd be more ashamed of things like the GF"4" MX line than 5800s

 

[boyRacer]

I love it when people say how much they hate nvidia and theyll never support them or their products ever... then in another thread... they cant stop endorsing the nforce2.

 

[DefRef]

Originally posted by: boyRacer
I love it when people say how much they hate nvidia and theyll never support them or their products ever... then in another thread... they cant stop endorsing the nforce2.

You see this sort of behavior in Software when all the people who believe Micro$oft is the embodiment of Evil and they should be crushed by the government and all their product cast into the fires of Mount Doom....except Internet Explorer, which is the most awesomest browser in the whole world - "F**K Netscape!!! Good riddance that POS is DEAD!!!! IE 4evuh!!!!"

Sound familiar?

The ATI fanboys are the most self-satisfied pack of poo-throwing howler monkeys you can ever have the misfortune of encountering anywhere. The NVNews forums seem to be 90% ATI fanboys who troll the Nvida area and threadcrap regardless of topic - someone could post "I went to a LAN party and won a 5600 as a door prize!" and 15 ATI jackasses will post "eBay that POS and get a Sapphire 9800 and be l337 liek m3!" within a half hour.

News flash: Girls aren't gonna polish your knob cuz you got an ATI card!

Wasn't [ H ] busted recently for switching benchmark scores recently and now Kyle wants to demand an accounting from someone else? Uh, OK. That'd be like Bill Clinton telling Ben Affleck that it was wrong for him to go to a strip club while he's away from J.Ho.

 

[DaveSimmons]

That'd be like Bill Clinton telling Ben Affleck that it was wrong for him to go to a strip club while he's away from J.Ho.

Though nV is apparently now paying Futuremark again to get some lovin'.

And Kyle's (and Willy's) behavior has no bearing on whether or not nV should be giving people real trilinear filtering when they fork over their $500. I thought that dancer was a girl!

 

[DAPUNISHER]

This is the video forum on a hardware enthusiasts site, however, I'll say this anyways. This is nothing more than a computer geek version of days of our lives. This quote actually made me laugh, then it changed to disgust "The bottom line is this. NVIDIA has broken a sacred trust between themselves and the community" sacred trust?

Get the f*ck outta my face with that melo-dramatic bullsh*t! I trust no corporation, period! I "trust" them to try and part me from my money using whatever underhanded, sugar coated, or otherwise unethical/immoral tactics they can Kyle or anyone else is completely mental if they truly place that kind of faith/trust in any corporation.

I have to say though, I have gravitated more towards nVidia's products since they began undermining futuremock then making them their 2$ whore :evil: Don't approve of their underhanded business tactics, their strong-arming of 3Dmock, their taking candy from babies? By all means purchase ATI's products. But why you need those reasons to buy ATI are beyond me, they make a better price/performance series of graphics cards anyways, and that should be your reason for purchasing them. Trying to run this line of sh*t about betrayal, ethics, and outrage is simply naive IMO. <dons flame suit and grabs bag of marshmallows>

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
This is the video forum on a hardware enthusiasts site, however, I'll say this anyways. This is nothing more than a computer geek version of days of our lives. This quote actually made me laugh, then it changed to disgust "The bottom line is this. NVIDIA has broken a sacred trust between themselves and the community" sacred trust?

Get the f*ck outta my face with that melo-dramatic bullsh*t! I trust no corporation, period! I "trust" them to try and part me from my money using whatever underhanded, sugar coated, or otherwise unethical/immoral tactics they can Kyle or anyone else is completely mental if they truly place that kind of faith/trust in any corporation.

I have to say though, I have gravitated more towards nVidia's products since they began undermining futuremock then making them their 2$ whore :evil: Don't approve of their underhanded business tactics, their strong-arming of 3Dmock, their taking candy from babies? By all means purchase ATI's products. But why you need those reasons to buy ATI are beyond me, they make a better price/performance series of graphics cards anyways, and that should be your reason for purchasing them. Trying to run this line of sh*t about betrayal, ethics, and outrage is simply naive IMO. <dons flame suit and grabs bag of marshmallows>

That's what i was thinking... seems like the end of the world if we don't have trilinear filtering... :Q

 

[rickon66]

It is a bit dramatic, but the guy seems to be a champion of the truth. In the context of what his site is all about-GO KYLE!!!!

 

[ZimZum]

Originally posted by: DefRef
You see this sort of behavior in Software when all the people who believe Micro$oft is the embodiment of Evil and they should be crushed by the government and all their product cast into the fires of Mount Doom....except Internet Explorer, which is the most awesomest browser in the whole world - "F**K Netscape!!! Good riddance that POS is DEAD!!!! IE 4evuh!!!!"

DefRef loses 800 cool points for using the word awesomest.

 

[Regs]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Regs
You want to buy nVidia products and let them treat you like a dumb monkey be my guest.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow excellent way to demonstrate you didn't bother to actually take 2 minutes and read what I posted.

The reader has only the ability to understand what was written based upon how the writer brought his point across effectively.

 

[Genx87]

Yes, because:
(a) we keep finding out about new nVidia cheats besides 3DMark, in real games like UT2K3 and Elite Force II
(b) nvidia has now refused to fix trilinear filtering and give users the image quality they're paying $500 to get.

I've been buying nvidia cards since the TNT days and am using one now, but my next card will probably be an ATI since then I can play games with the full image quality that the designers want me to see, not the degraded image quality that nvidia spews out to score better in benchmarks.


I have read a review of the supposed image issues with the FX cards on I think digit-life or something. They even state in the article you will not notice any issues without really really looking at it. Trillinear support??????? I havent heard of that one since the original det drivers for the FX series, but if you think doing AF at 22.5,0, 90, and 45 degrees is a good thing. Go and get an ATI card.

And people putting faith in 3dmark is hilarious. Go read the article at aces hardware. A p2 350 with a 9700Pro beat a P4 2.4Ghz machine with a 9600 Pro in 3 of 4 "game" benchmarks.

Horribly inaccurate to say the least.

Doesn't honesty matter to you? Don't you mind being cheated? If you catch someone cheating wouldn't you expect them to confess and admit it? What you say about Kyle is the worst of nonsense. You do not address the message he's sending, you just shoot the messenger. That is a cheap shot.


When it comes to 3dmark? I could give a rats ass. That benchmark has 0 bearing on the real world so I could care less. As for the rest point me to some valid links and Ill look into it more. My guess is the "supposed" cheats or image degradation only occurs when you open the picture up and zoom in 600x. If I need to look that deep to find a problem I am not going to notice it when playing said game at 100 FPS with 20 peeps trying to frag me.

What does matter to me is compatability and stability. Something that is "still" lacking on the ATI side. I have heard they have gotten better but it is amazing the amount of specific game fixes each driver release has for ATI. And then it is equally amazing to see what their fixes breaks on other games. Now I am sure Ill get a zillion of the typical "Well my card has been stable 100% of the time". I am happy for you then. But I dont really feel like taking chances. Anywho when Nvidia releases new drivers most people talk about how great the performance is, or how far they can push their card. When it comes to the ATI side it is 90% "Awesome I can finally play my favorite game after 8 months of owning this card".

That sounds like a lot of fun IMO. Drop 250-300 bucks on a card so I can wait 8 months to play my favorite game. I did that once with a Matrox card. The G400 couldnt play Tribes period. Well it could if you enjoyed inverted colors and .5 FPS. So I put my Voodo2 back in. I havent bought a Matrox card since. When I get my FX5700 in Jan or so and pop it in. I can be 99% sure the only difference between it and my GF4 Ti4600 is it will be much faster.

Oh BTW I play Dark Ages of Camelot as my main game right now. The devs are part of the Nvidia optimization program and there are a whole slew of problems on the R3.xx cards. They even recommend an Nvidia card.

So would I care if Nvidia cheats in 3dnamrk03 when my current favorite game runs the best on an Nvidia card?????

That should answer your question..............................................................

 

[PhoenixOfWater]

I would like to see both ATI and Nvidia out of the Futuremark Beta Program...

like Kyle said
"ATI and NVIDIA need to pull out of the Futuremark Beta Program and recommit themselves to focusing on their customers gaming experience"

just my $0.02

 

[DefRef]

Originally posted by: ZimZum

Originally posted by: DefRef
You see this sort of behavior in Software when all the people who believe Micro$oft is the embodiment of Evil and they should be crushed by the government and all their product cast into the fires of Mount Doom....except Internet Explorer, which is the most awesomest browser in the whole world - "F**K Netscape!!! Good riddance that POS is DEAD!!!! IE 4evuh!!!!"

DefRef loses 800 cool points for using the word awesomest.

I was parapharasing the language of the confused M$ haters, who just loves their IE! I would never use a word like "awesomest" when the prefectly adequate "right spiffy" covers the bases already.

 

[spam]

So let us get this straight, it is okay to cheat and lie to you as long as it does not effect your game?
Have you read what you posted?
Do you know what it makes you sound like?
Once again you try and divert responsibility (ATI), deflect criticism (ATI), diminish importance of the offence etc.... Just a bunch of cheap shots. I really don't know if there can be any dialogue or discussion with that type of closed mindedness.

 

[Richdog]

Originally posted by: ZimZum

Originally posted by: DefRef
You see this sort of behavior in Software when all the people who believe Micro$oft is the embodiment of Evil and they should be crushed by the government and all their product cast into the fires of Mount Doom....except Internet Explorer, which is the most awesomest browser in the whole world - "F**K Netscape!!! Good riddance that POS is DEAD!!!! IE 4evuh!!!!"

DefRef loses 800 cool points for using the word awesomest.

Cool points are so uncool...