Gwynne Dyer: Forget terrorism, Chechnya is Putin's war

[Corn]

Originally posted by: glenn1

It's mentalities like that will guarantee terrorism will always exist. They don't understand that eliminating the core reasons takes away the cause of the terrorists.

Okay, let's put your theory into practice. Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, which I think we can agree was a terrorist act. His stated "core reason" for doing so was belief in a militia mentality hatred of the Federal government. How would you "eliminate" this core reason, or stop others from adopting the same philosophy? Or if you prefer, the Unabomber. His stated "core reason" posted in his "manifesto" was basically a hatred of technology in the generic sense. How would you go about eliminating that core reason?

I'll name a dozen more if you want me to. I'm eager to hear your ideas about how you plan to eliminate the "core reasons" for all these movements.

:beer:

I fear you are wasting your breath.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: glenn1

If the Core Reasons are ignored, expect a future of perpetual Terrorism/Revenge.

So better to just surrender to the demands of their "core reasons" than deal with terrorist acts? Because otherwise understanding them doesn't mean sh!t. If I take the time to learn your "core reasons" and decide not to do what they want, how is that somehow more noble than never learning what their core reasons are at all and still not doing what they want?

I'll ask you again. If you knew a rape was going to be committed, do you think it's important to get a list of reasons why the rapist is going to commit the act? Would it make a difference to you in whether or not you decided to condemn it or not, or seek to stop it from happening?

Core reasons are not the Demands of the Terrorists, they are the reasons people choose Terrorism. Most of these Reasons are tied to Political Oppression, Poverty, or other circumstances that sap people of Hope. Terrorism has Political Roots and is not just caused by people who are Thrill seekers(the reason I won't answer the silly Rape question).

I certainly have not advocated excusing away Terrorist acts, in fact I am advocating the best form of Pre-Emption there is: Remove the Cause that drives ordinary People to take up Terrorism.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
Don't play games, according CycloWizard the army is trying to "AVOID" killing civilians. I don't see them avoiding at all, I see an army that doesn't give a Sh!t about foreign civilians.

If the military wasn't trying to 'avoid' killing citizens then there would be a hell of a lot more dead. Why would they even bother with precision bombing?

There are a lot of people dead, but that doesn't mean that the military didn't try to avoid killing them in whatever task it was assigned to accomplish.

Avoiding civilians!

"The U.S. forces are sealing off the city and the national forces are not allowing ambulances and other medical aid ... to enter the city," Yassin said. "I want the government ... to intervene."

Just disgusting!

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: glenn1

If the Core Reasons are ignored, expect a future of perpetual Terrorism/Revenge.

So better to just surrender to the demands of their "core reasons" than deal with terrorist acts? Because otherwise understanding them doesn't mean sh!t. If I take the time to learn your "core reasons" and decide not to do what they want, how is that somehow more noble than never learning what their core reasons are at all and still not doing what they want?

I'll ask you again. If you knew a rape was going to be committed, do you think it's important to get a list of reasons why the rapist is going to commit the act? Would it make a difference to you in whether or not you decided to condemn it or not, or seek to stop it from happening?

Core reasons are not the Demands of the Terrorists, they are the reasons people choose Terrorism. Most of these Reasons are tied to Political Oppression, Poverty, or other circumstances that sap people of Hope. Terrorism has Political Roots and is not just caused by people who are Thrill seekers(the reason I won't answer the silly Rape question).

I certainly have not advocated excusing away Terrorist acts, in fact I am advocating the best form of Pre-Emption there is: Remove the Cause that drives ordinary People to take up Terrorism.

Ahem.........I'll just quote something I said a couple posts ago.

Funny how the bleeding hearts here (and elsewhere) are so quick to determine what drives these murderers: Usually something along the lines of "repressive" governments, lack of education, and of course poverty. Am I wrong?

But then we remove a brutal dictator in Iraq with the intent to bring democracy and all the wonderous benefits of freedom said democracy has the potential to bring--yet that merely breeds more terrorists.

So Sandorski, how are we to remove political oppression, poverty, and those other unnamed circumstances that supposedly turn ordinary people into murderers. Do we ask their repressive governents' nicely to please give up their tyrannical ways and to re-distribute their wealth according to need? I would be most interested in hearing about your cure-all to these so-called "core reasons".

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: glenn1

If the Core Reasons are ignored, expect a future of perpetual Terrorism/Revenge.

So better to just surrender to the demands of their "core reasons" than deal with terrorist acts? Because otherwise understanding them doesn't mean sh!t. If I take the time to learn your "core reasons" and decide not to do what they want, how is that somehow more noble than never learning what their core reasons are at all and still not doing what they want?

I'll ask you again. If you knew a rape was going to be committed, do you think it's important to get a list of reasons why the rapist is going to commit the act? Would it make a difference to you in whether or not you decided to condemn it or not, or seek to stop it from happening?

Core reasons are not the Demands of the Terrorists, they are the reasons people choose Terrorism. Most of these Reasons are tied to Political Oppression, Poverty, or other circumstances that sap people of Hope. Terrorism has Political Roots and is not just caused by people who are Thrill seekers(the reason I won't answer the silly Rape question).

I certainly have not advocated excusing away Terrorist acts, in fact I am advocating the best form of Pre-Emption there is: Remove the Cause that drives ordinary People to take up Terrorism.

Ahem.........I'll just quote something I said a couple posts ago.

Funny how the bleeding hearts here (and elsewhere) are so quick to determine what drives these murderers: Usually something along the lines of "repressive" governments, lack of education, and of course poverty. Am I wrong?

But then we remove a brutal dictator in Iraq with the intent to bring democracy and all the wonderous benefits of freedom said democracy has the potential to bring--yet that merely breeds more terrorists.

So Sandorski, how are we to remove political oppression, poverty, and those other unnamed circumstances that supposedly turn ordinary people into murderers. Do we ask their repressive governents' nicely to please give up their tyrannical ways and to re-distribute their wealth according to need? I would be most interested in hearing about your cure-all to these so-called "core reasons".

He's wrong you know. It's Homoginized Milk and Flouride in the water that is causing all our problems.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: glenn1

If the Core Reasons are ignored, expect a future of perpetual Terrorism/Revenge.

So better to just surrender to the demands of their "core reasons" than deal with terrorist acts? Because otherwise understanding them doesn't mean sh!t. If I take the time to learn your "core reasons" and decide not to do what they want, how is that somehow more noble than never learning what their core reasons are at all and still not doing what they want?

I'll ask you again. If you knew a rape was going to be committed, do you think it's important to get a list of reasons why the rapist is going to commit the act? Would it make a difference to you in whether or not you decided to condemn it or not, or seek to stop it from happening?

Core reasons are not the Demands of the Terrorists, they are the reasons people choose Terrorism. Most of these Reasons are tied to Political Oppression, Poverty, or other circumstances that sap people of Hope. Terrorism has Political Roots and is not just caused by people who are Thrill seekers(the reason I won't answer the silly Rape question).

I certainly have not advocated excusing away Terrorist acts, in fact I am advocating the best form of Pre-Emption there is: Remove the Cause that drives ordinary People to take up Terrorism.

Ahem.........I'll just quote something I said a couple posts ago.

Funny how the bleeding hearts here (and elsewhere) are so quick to determine what drives these murderers: Usually something along the lines of "repressive" governments, lack of education, and of course poverty. Am I wrong?

But then we remove a brutal dictator in Iraq with the intent to bring democracy and all the wonderous benefits of freedom said democracy has the potential to bring--yet that merely breeds more terrorists.

So Sandorski, how are we to remove political oppression, poverty, and those other unnamed circumstances that supposedly turn ordinary people into murderers. Do we ask their repressive governents' nicely to please give up their tyrannical ways and to re-distribute their wealth according to need? I would be most interested in hearing about your cure-all to these so-called "core reasons".

That is nice but ask yourself WHY these people look at the US as a target.

Help put a dictator in charge and then overthrow him when he doesn't do exactly as you say, and those damn people don't understand that you are doing it just out of the goodness of your hearts, to save them.

Strange people.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: glenn1

If the Core Reasons are ignored, expect a future of perpetual Terrorism/Revenge.

So better to just surrender to the demands of their "core reasons" than deal with terrorist acts? Because otherwise understanding them doesn't mean sh!t. If I take the time to learn your "core reasons" and decide not to do what they want, how is that somehow more noble than never learning what their core reasons are at all and still not doing what they want?

I'll ask you again. If you knew a rape was going to be committed, do you think it's important to get a list of reasons why the rapist is going to commit the act? Would it make a difference to you in whether or not you decided to condemn it or not, or seek to stop it from happening?

Core reasons are not the Demands of the Terrorists, they are the reasons people choose Terrorism. Most of these Reasons are tied to Political Oppression, Poverty, or other circumstances that sap people of Hope. Terrorism has Political Roots and is not just caused by people who are Thrill seekers(the reason I won't answer the silly Rape question).

I certainly have not advocated excusing away Terrorist acts, in fact I am advocating the best form of Pre-Emption there is: Remove the Cause that drives ordinary People to take up Terrorism.

Ahem.........I'll just quote something I said a couple posts ago.

Funny how the bleeding hearts here (and elsewhere) are so quick to determine what drives these murderers: Usually something along the lines of "repressive" governments, lack of education, and of course poverty. Am I wrong?

But then we remove a brutal dictator in Iraq with the intent to bring democracy and all the wonderous benefits of freedom said democracy has the potential to bring--yet that merely breeds more terrorists.

So Sandorski, how are we to remove political oppression, poverty, and those other unnamed circumstances that supposedly turn ordinary people into murderers. Do we ask their repressive governents' nicely to please give up their tyrannical ways and to re-distribute their wealth according to need? I would be most interested in hearing about your cure-all to these so-called "core reasons".

People don't blame the US for things the US has no influence on. They don't hate the US because their Dictator is mean and cruel, they hate the US because it continues to prop up their Dictator. So going around willy nilly taking out Dictators isn't necessary nor is it necessarily successful(Iraq).

It also is not Practical as a longterm solution. How many dead Americans can you stomach, how many Disabled Vets? Are you absolutely positive that you want to go down this Path, a Path that is unproven to even work?

There are Peaceful means to accomplish these same goals. They may not make good News stories or Movie of the Week material, but they work.

 

[glenn1]

There are Peaceful means to accomplish these same goals. They may not make good News stories or Movie of the Week material, but they work.

So name them, and how each one will procedurely work to reduce/eliminate terrorism. That's what we've been asking you to do for a dozen posts or so. Put your ideas into policy form, not just some sweeping generality about how poverty causes terrorism, since that's demonstrably false.

Let me give you a template - "I support a policy of ____ , which will reduce/eliminate terrorism by ______."

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: glenn1

There are Peaceful means to accomplish these same goals. They may not make good News stories or Movie of the Week material, but they work.

So name them, and how each one will procedurely work to reduce/eliminate terrorism. That's what we've been asking you to do for a dozen posts or so. Put your ideas into policy form, not just some sweeping generality about how poverty causes terrorism, since that's demonstrably false.

Let me give you a template - "I support a policy of ____ , which will reduce/eliminate terrorism by ______."

Poverty in itslef doesn't cause Terrorism, it only exacerbates situations that makes it more likely. I pointed out more than Poverty.

Policies that work:

1) Have some Principles and have your Words=Actions. You can't promote one thing in Word then contradict it by Action against those who live up to your Priciples(overthrowing Democratically elected governments for eg). Being two-faced causes animosity.

2) Make an Agreement, live by it. You don't bail when you are found in violation of such agreements. Being two-faced causes animosity.

3) Quit supporting Dictators even if they have something you want or are convenient for some strategic reason. This is likely the main reason why Iraqi's are not cooperative, their "liberators" are the same ones who supported their Monster.

4) Publicly put Political pressure on non-Democratic governments. It can be done in a Diplomatic way which will show Average citizens that you want them to see real progress and are sympathetic to their plight.

5) Settle the Israel/Palestine issue.

I would agree on one thing: Violence is necessary to deal with known Terrorists. Once someone chooses to be a Terrorist it is like losing one's virginity, there is no going back(usually). Where I disagree is with preventing people from becoming Terrorists, violence is no deterrence and even legitimate uses of violence is likely to push some to embrace Terrorism. This is why a multi-pronged approach is so necessary, to win the hearts and minds of those in high risk areas.

 

[glenn1]

Policies that work:

1) Have some Principles and have your Words=Actions. You can't promote one thing in Word then contradict it by Action against those who live up to your Priciples(overthrowing Democratically elected governments for eg). Being two-faced causes animosity.

2) Make an Agreement, live by it. You don't bail when you are found in violation of such agreements. Being two-faced causes animosity.

3) Quit supporting Dictators even if they have something you want or are convenient for some strategic reason. This is likely the main reason why Iraqi's are not cooperative, their "liberators" are the same ones who supported their Monster.

4) Publicly put Political pressure on non-Democratic governments. It can be done in a Diplomatic way which will show Average citizens that you want them to see real progress and are sympathetic to their plight.

5) Settle the Israel/Palestine issue.

I would agree on one thing: Violence is necessary to deal with known Terrorists. Once someone chooses to be a Terrorist it is like losing one's virginity, there is no going back(usually). Where I disagree is with preventing people from becoming Terrorists, violence is no deterrence and even legitimate uses of violence is likely to push some to embrace Terrorism. This is why a multi-pronged approach is so necessary, to win the hearts and minds of those in high risk areas.

I have no problem with any of the above. It may even help in some cases, but certainly not all. However it quickly and obviously breaks down if you're talking about any terrorist who's not primarily motivated by political factors (the percentage of terrorists falling into that category we can debate in another thread). For example, I find no reason to believe that terrorists such as Earth Liberation Front are motivated by concerns of whether we support dictators. Ditto for whether a Unabomber would be much impressed if the Palestinian situation was resolved tomorrow.

If we narrow down our discussion to speak only of Islamicist terrorists, most of the "ringleaders" of such are relatively financially well-off and well-educated, and tend to come from relatively "moderate" regimes such as Saudi Arabia, Osama bin Laden being a prime example of both. As such, do you honestly think he is motivated by any of the concerns on your list? While I'm sure he'd appreciate us abiding by the points on your list and would be happy as anyone if we stopped supporting the Robert Mugabes of the world, the idea that they'd convince him to give up terrorism is ludicrous as those aren't his main beefs.

Likewise, some of your policy prescriptions work at cross-purposes with each other. Those seeking to accomplish point 5 have already previously compromised points 3 and 4 by installing and continuing to support Yassir Arafat as the legitimate representative of Palestinian aspirations, as Arafat has and continues to compromise your points 1 and 2.