GWB declared Sunday a national day of prayer

[Zenmervolt]

<<I'm glad we finally have a President that has Balls enough to stand up and declare &quot;Christians have a right to be Christians!&quot;

It just TORCHES me to no end hearing bastard atheists yelling &quot;It Offends me to Hear you Pray!&quot;>>

It doesn't bother me at all if someone prays, heck, pray in school for all I care. I just believe that the government declaring a certain day a &quot;day of prayer&quot; is an endorsement of religion, and as such forbidden by the Constitution. People certainly have the right to pray on their own when- and where-ever they want, the government should not advocate a &quot;day of prayer&quot; though.

<<Well, it offends ME when I hear someone say &quot;Fvck You!!&quot;>> (How did you get away with posting &quot;fvck&quot; unedited?)

Ditto, but I'm in a college dorm right now, so I only have to hear it at 3 am when people have (presumably) drunken shouting matches. I have lost count on the number of times I wake up in the middle of the night hearing some idiot pounding on his door shouting &quot;Let me in you F***ing B****!&quot;.

Anyway, back on topic, I have no problem with people praying whereever (sp?) and whenever they please. However, the government should not be declaring &quot;days of prayer&quot;.

Zenmervolt

EDIT: <<despite the separation of church and state, when our country was founded many of the men involved were Christian and some of the ideas use were even taken from certain denominations' goverments (like the Presbyterian Book of Order). so our country still has religious ties in the governement despite the separation that was called for. now whether this is good or bad is up to you to decide... >>

Um, actually most of the founding fathers were Deist and not Christian, and most of the ideas for the government came from Thomas Paine. There are laws that closely coincide with certain religious rules, but those are also the most basic law which every society requires in order to remain viable (don't kill, don't steal &amp;c). The constitution is clearly a secular document, and that did not happen by accident.

 

[~zonker~]

Whitedog... *LOL*

 

[shiner]

<< I just believe that the government declaring a certain day a &quot;day of prayer&quot; is an endorsement of religion, and as such forbidden by the Constitution. >>



No, no, no!!! Did you not read my earlier post? The Constitution does not prevent the government from recognizing religion, setting aside a day of prayer, etc... What it forbids is the government sanctioning one religion over the other. To put it in clear and simple terms for you since you seem to have a problem wrapping your head around the issue; The Constitution forbids the government from declaring that &quot;All Americans must be Baptists&quot; or something along those lines.

Go pick up a copy of The Constitution and read it sometime. It might help you understand things better and keep you from looking quite as ignorant.

 

[shiner]

<< Um, actually most of the founding fathers were Deist and not Christian, and most of the ideas for the government came from Thomas Paine. >>



Truth be known most of the ideas our government is based on are long standing Christian beliefs mixed in with a bit of Hobbes(no not the tiger), The Code of Hammurabi, and Greek ideals of Democracy. Paine was simply repeating those ideas when he wrote Common Sense and later on when he wrote Rights of Man.

Paine had very little to do with acutally crafting the documents that still govern us today. Most of that was done by Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson's ideas were then put before a committee and he would go back and make revisions based on their imput.

 

[LordMaul]

Oh hell yeah. This is one of the best things that could have happened...

I think it is fine. If you don't pray, then whoop dee fvcking doo! Ignore it, and don't mess with us that do.

 

[KingHam]

Liberal tolerance=throw away your belief system and believe the same things that I do.

KingHam

 

[LordMaul]

Heh, good idea. You do that.

 

[RGN]

Shut up SHUX.

 

[UG]

Frankly, this Atheist considers a Sunday day of prayer to be a significantly minor price to pay for being able to see the First Sleeze Ball pried from the Office.

If I were a praying man, I'd say mine had been answered quite adequately.

Since I'm not a praying man, I'll say to Mr. Bill &quot;Normally, the White House door isn't supposed to hit you in the ass on your way out. Still, You're Outta There!&quot;

Hasta la vista, clown.

 

[Isla]

I don't have a problem with prayer... I'm a believer. As long as no one is forced to pray in a specific way/religion, it hurts no one. Just ignore it if it bugs you.

I just hope the prayer thing isn't a show or a cover.

Nothing worse than someone who talks the talk but don't walk the walk... you know?

Just my .02.

 

[Whitedog]

<<(How did you get away with posting &quot;fvck&quot; unedited?)>>

That's for Me to know.

Besides, if I told, then Eveyone would be doing it, and we wouldn't want that now would we?

We really want to keep this board clean. I was just making a point. I really don't talk like that, and Am offended when I &quot;hear&quot; people talk like that. I guess it's just embarrassing more than anything. I suppose it depends on your surroundings. When I was in the military, it was common language, but now I work in a corporate environment and it isn't looked at kindly.

 

[Whitedog]

I was thinking jsut that Isla! Good observation.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Jefferson lifted from Paine who lifted from previous authors, and so on ad infinitum. Though I stand behind my point that the law which intersect with religious laws are only the most basic and fundamental laws without which a society would quickly die, on a technicality, I agree with your post regarding the connection between religious laws and US law (which was based on the British Judicial System). As for asking me to read the Constitution, I have. I'll agree that all it does is bar Congress from establishing a &quot;national religion&quot;, and that your analogy about requiring everyone to be baptist was a good one. However, based on the current legal trends in interpretation, it has been pretty much established that for now the government cannot do anything that could be construed as endorsing one religion over another (which is why nativity scenes are moving off of public land in many areas). I feel that a &quot;national day of prayer&quot; endorses theism above agnosticism/atheism, and as such it should not be allowed considering the current legal precidents. However, just as there are many differing interpretations of the Constitution, there are many differing interpretations of the implications of legal precidents, and mine simply do not match yours. Also, these legal precidents are likely to change many times over the future. This does not make either of us wrong, so I'll just agree to disagree in this matter. I think we are probably both wrong actually. As there is no way to query the founders as to what they really intended. The best we can do is make inferances based upon the amount of knowledge we have on the subject and hope we are close.

Zenmervolt

EDIT: Actually it doesn't bug me on anything above the level of a technicality that Bush declared a &quot;day of prayer&quot;. I just needed to have some of my debate points shot down. Need to keep sharp on how to debate for the important things. Seriously, I enjoy these discussions, and I have yet to see them turn ugly, most of the people I get involved in a discussion with have been respectful in their disagreement, as I have tried to be (if I get out of line, GirlFriday can use me for NEF tossing practice, OK?). Thanks for the opportunity to exercise my brain guys, I need some sleep right now. Catch you all later. Oh, and I think I figured out Whitedog's mysterious unedited posting ability -- he a Mod. (J/K but I like the theory.)

 

[Michael]

Wow, Shux posting a liberal whining thread. Who ever would have imagined it.

Michael

 

[Netopia]

Obviously, I'm LOVING it!

Both my wife and I got a little teary at the AWESOME invocation of Franklin Graham. I was also very encouraged to hear a large percentage of the crowd affirm the Methodist minister with a resounding AMEN to his prayer.

I hope that George W. is staunch in his religious beliefs and refuses to back down. I hope that he publically affirms Christ Jesus and acknowledges Him before all people. Just because he is President doens't mean that he has to give up his personal rights to stand up and express his beliefs. My only regret is that he didn't declare MONDAY a national federal holiday of Thanksgiving and Prayer.

Joe

 

[Lord Evermore]

Why exactly the need to declare a 'day of prayer' if all it was doing was telling people 'pray if you're happy that things went over peacefully'? Why make it seem like it was a government ordained thing? I certainly don't have the right to declare that the entire country should recognize this as 'have sex with evermore' day and that everyone should if they want to.

Being the president, this particular instance of pushing religion was wrong. If there was some tragedy or something like a bombing that killed a lot of people, then it would be okay, as it would only be the expression of the government grieving along with its people. This 'day of prayer' wasn't needed, nothing major happened that needed to be prayed about.

No prayer when Congress opens.
No prayer in school.
No pledge of allegiance in school.
No 'day of prayer' declarations for anything other than expression of sympathy about a tragedy.

It's simple: the government should not endorse any particular form of worship or lack thereof, because the government has POWER and it could too easily get out of hand, and religion is a personal thing. The role of government is to moderate the flow of the country's economy and interaction amongst the people and other countries. NOT to influence how other people live their lives based solely on the individual preferences of the people who make up the government.

I damn sure bet that if there'd been a Jewish president that declared something that was more prone towards Jewish beliefs, the Xian right would be up in arms and they damn sure wouldn't be saying it was nothing but the president's personal beliefs and that he had the right to publicly announce them. (Even though 'a day of prayer' isn't just a Xian thing, it does still endorse religion as a whole, indicating that the government considers religion better than atheism.)

 

[Wedesdo]

Remember how all the Republican keep saying that Clinton's sex scandel was sending a wrong message to children?

Well, George Bush is continuing the trend, sending the wrong message that if the Pres. is a xian, they should be too, which is clearly an endorsement of religion, and therefore is forbidden under the constitution.

No wonder the Repulbicans are hypocrites - yelling constutionism on one side, breaking on the other

 

[shiner]

<< Well, George Bush is continuing the trend, sending the wrong message that if the Pres. is a xian, they should be too, which is clearly an endorsement of religion, and therefore is forbidden under the constitution. >>



You just don't get it do you? The Constitution only forbids the government from establishing an official State religion. It does not prevent the government from recognizing religion.

What Bush did is not &quot;endorsing&quot; religion as you would like to have us believe. GWB did not come out and say &quot;since I'm a Methodist, everyone has to be a Methodist.&quot; Had he done that then yes he would have violated the Constitution. What he did was simply ask for a day of prayer.

You left wing zealots really need to practice more of the tolerance you are always saying the Republicans need to have more of. Seems to me the left is MUCH more intolerant than the right. Bunch of hypocrites. Why don't you just go join a PETA anti-meat &amp; fur protest somewhere while you wear your Nike leather shoes.

 

[Yzzim]

<< But, no, Clinton did not go kung fu on his ass when he was taking the oath. >>



ROFLMAO!!

 

[Whitedog]

I hope George declares this country to be a Christain Nation and that all unbelievers in Jesus must get on a boat and paddle to Cuba!

hehe, j/k

You guys are seriouly whacked for being pissed that we might just have a president that has good moral values.

You sound like you'd be much happier if Charles Manson was president.

 

[Pennstate]

Man, Red's merciless tonight

 

[shiner]

<< Shut up bitch, >>





<< I'm tolerant of you but you can't be declaring holidays and days of the week dedicated to one stinking religion, be it Christianity,Sun Moon Palco or what ever. This country is made up of people of all religions, races and ehtnic backgrounds. Pale Face Christianity isn't to be forced upon anybody, you got that?! >>


Way to be tolerant there Red!

Bush did not declare a holiday or day of the week to &quot;one stinking religion&quot; what he did was ask for a day of prayer. That does not mention Christianity, Hinduism, etc... he asked for a DAY OF PRAYER!! How is that elevating one religion over another???



<< A Prime example of a Zealot who uses Christianity for his Political purposes. Actually he doesn't practice Christianity he only insults it by proclaiming to be a follower. >>



Actually GWB is quite a devot Methodist. He begins each morning by reading the Bible for 45 minutes to an hour. I would say he practices what he preaches.

 

[MrPALCO]

The calling on the name of Jesus by Franklin Graham had me and mine crying like a baby. Calling on the Highest authority in a public ceremony before all men WILL guarantee the blessing of God. Graham speaking to God by the authority of President Bush, has sealed the deal. The Peace of this Nation is now Written and cannot be dislodged.



<< Most I know who are real Christians seem to be less forceful about it. Maybe those are the real Christians and these here are just pretenders using Christianity to give their fringe idea's and beliefs some validity. >>



For many years the enemy has convinced honest christians that we must submit to the civil authority, and that is was evil to be involved in government.

The Truth is, we must submit to civil authority (with certain exceptions that are outlined by God) in order to maintain the peace, so that Men can make a free choice regarding God. Many christians believe that submission to civil authority means we must stay in the shadows, this is not correct.

When public office becomes available, it is right for any qualified man to run for that office, christians included. Many christians realize that as US citizens we can rise to the highest positions of civil authority and use power in service to our God, but not as a substitute for our Covenant with our God. Bush is a good example of that.

As the godless have promoted their agenda, now is the time for christians to promote our agenda, and we will continue to do so with great vigor.

Many men who are not joined to God and live law abiding lives have nothing to fear, we only want peace for them.

If there is an abundance of lawlessness in your heart, it is there by your &quot;choice&quot; and if you lack tolerance for our christian lifestyle we will continue to be your worst nightmare.

My hope is that more christians will realize that we will have to confront a very vocal enemy who hates what we stand for and has the mind set of a dying, drowning, crazed man, for he knows his lifestyle of anticonstitutional lawlessness is being brought into line.

Stay the course, I have seen the future, and we are the Winners.



edit..sp

 

[Dedpuhl]

Truth be known most of the ideas our government is based on are long standing Christian beliefs mixed in with a bit of Hobbes(no not the tiger), The Code of Hammurabi, and Greek ideals of Democracy

The religion devoted to Jesus Christ and God borrowed ALL of its ideas from other religions, choosing the good things and tossing out the rest. Most of the ideology is common sense. The 10 commandments are a prime example. I call them the 10 &quot;common senses.&quot; Of course you should not go killing people and sleeping with your best friends wife. It is purely common sense.


You guys are seriouly whacked for being pissed that we might just have a president that has good moral values.

Anyone can have good moral values and not thump a bible.



As the godless have promoted their agenda, now is the time for christians to promote our agenda, and we will continue to do so with great vigor

Like you Xians haven't been promoting your shi'ite since Jesus was supposedly hung out to dry.





&quot;I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.&quot;
...............Thomas Jefferson

 

[ToBeMe]

What the H*ll is the big deal already? He declared a &quot;Day Of Prayer&quot;.............He didn't &quot;order&quot; you to do it, nor did he &quot;order&quot; you to pray to any certain God! Jeesh people! I don't know how he'll end up being either but to jump on him for this is just stupidity!