Guy at UCLA computer lab gets tasered (now with youtube video!!)

[paulney]

Originally posted by: pg22
Funny, I rejected Berkeley for UCLA.

Why?

 

[kmmatney]

Originally posted by: pg22
Funny, I rejected Berkeley for UCLA.

Me too. Why? I guess to stay closer to home. I don't know why - I was a freakin' high school kid when I decided. My other option was UCSB. I stayed at UCLA through grad school, though - Materials Engineering.

I always had a great time going up to Cal for football games, though.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: VooDooAddict
Nice.

From my impression of the video, before reading time logged transcripts it apeared that he was tazed multiple times then started swearing.

If you read my whole post, I'm not saying the cops were definetly in the wrong. Just saying from the video with no other information ... it looked quite bad for the cops.

Again though ... awsome response.

Thanks. I'm glad you appreciated my reply.

New articles on the Daily Bruin:
Officer named in Taser incident
Paired Viewpoint satire pieces: Trust me, I'm a Daily Bruin columnist: Column 1 Column 2

Column 1:
Much attention has been focused on a study that said Taser use of three to five seconds can cause temporary inability to move one's muscles for up to 15 minutes.

This means that if Tabatabainejad was stunned with the Taser for more than three seconds, he would have been physically unable to respond to the officers' commands to stand up.

Column 2:
The police were demanding that Tabatabainejad stand up, while simultaneously sending electricity through his nervous system, something that could paralyze him temporarily if the shocks were longer than three seconds.

While I appreciate the point of the "Trust me" pieces as being a recommendation to step back and avoid jumping to conclusions, it concerns me that the reference to the Lancet article is again done in misleading language.

My earlier post covers the Lancet article in more detail.

The Lancet, Effects of stun guns and tasers.(Commentary)(Brief Article), September 1, 2001
For example, electrodes 5 cm apart [as in a Taser in "drive stun" mode] applied directly over the vastus lateralis muscle [side of the thigh] does not inhibit voluntary function of the muscle during stimulation or afterwards....

The degree of sensation evoked by these devices can result in a response that far outlasts the duration of the current, so discharges of 3-5 s may leave the victim immobilised, dazed, and weak for 5-15 min.

Briefly: a Taser in "drive stun" does not affect motor function directly, but the pain it causes may daze or disorient the target.

Sorry, got to get to work, so I don't have time to read the Lancet article yet. But...This is one data set involving the effects of stun guns. Fine. And what do the researchers propose the effects are on someone with neuralgia or some other neurodegenerative disorder? I doubt that tazers are 100% capable of not inducing paralysis. Are the cops expected to ask an assailant: "Before we Tazer you, do you suffer from Neuralgia, Trigiminal Neuralgia, or some other neuropathetic disorder?""

I imagine that finding a large enough research sample (probably about 250-300 people) to volunteer for tazering to make it a reliable study would be quite difficult...sure, there are plenty out there willing to do anything to make a few bucks--but would those people even have access to this study?

That's merely speculation on my part; but I just find it ludicrous to assume that tazering affects every individual the same way, 100% of the time.

EDIT: also, the article as quoted mentions that the electrodes must be placed on the inner part of the thigh, over one particular muscle to achieve the effects they describe (non-paralyzing). Fine for control in a study; but useless in terms of real-world practice. For hand-held tasers, this may be easier for a cop to administer more readily. But those tazers that launch spring-loaded electrodes are not going to be hitting the inside of the thigh very accurately--not with some knife-weilding maniac coming after you.

 

[SP33Demon]

LoL that this thread is still going.

In any case, some updated news on the incident:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
11/16:
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

So basically the officers were lying when they said he was trying to incite a riot.

Also: "During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg [ACLU Attorney] said.

"It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge â?" that's assault," he said. "

Witnesses on the scene also described the incident as "police brutality", in their opinion:
The incident, which Zaragoza [third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident] described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed. "(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed."

http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960
--------------------------------------------------------------------

11/20, Hundreds protest:
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39025
Following a press conference organized by more than 50 student groups, more than 400 people gathered to listen to eyewitness accounts as well as student leaders' opinions on the incident, which has drawn international media attention.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
LoL that this thread is still going.

In any case, some news that came out on the 16th:
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

So basically the officers were lying when they said he was trying to incite a riot.

He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Also: "During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg [ACLU Attorney] said.

"It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge â?" that's assault," he said. "

They were interfering with the police when they were dealing with the situation. That is not the right time. After they had the guy out of the building would have been a good time.

Witnesses on the scene also described the incident as "police brutality", in their opinion:
The incident, which Zaragoza [third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident] described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed. "(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed."

http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

Well, as long as a bunch of melodramatic college students think it's police butality...

ALL the guy had to do was comply with their orders. It's obvious he was trying to make a point, because he refused to show his ID even though he had it.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

I saw the video. That student was in the officer's face and making motions with his arms.

When he agreed to leave did he happen to mention WHEN he'd be leaving, because it wasn't right then and I'm guessing a week from next Tuesday might not have worked for the officers.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
LoL that this thread is still going.

In any case, some news that came out on the 16th:
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

So basically the officers were lying when they said he was trying to incite a riot.

He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Also: "During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg [ACLU Attorney] said.

"It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge â?" that's assault," he said. "

They were interfering with the police when they were dealing with the situation. That is not the right time. After they had the guy out of the building would have been a good time.

Witnesses on the scene also described the incident as "police brutality", in their opinion:
The incident, which Zaragoza [third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident] described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed. "(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed."

http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

Well, as long as a bunch of melodramatic college students think it's police butality...

ALL the guy had to do was comply with their orders. It's obvious he was trying to make a point, because he refused to show his ID even though he had it.

Say what you want, but the police used excessive force in dealing with MT as well as the students. A confirmed 5 people (4 officers + a sergeant - http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=39047 ) should not have tased him 5+ times when he specifically said he wasn't going to fight and wanted to leave. 5 people > 1 200lb college student. Your opinion is in the minority Mugs. Melodramatic students? They were actually witnesses, and you were not. I think their opinion holds a lot more weight than anyone on ATOT.

I edited my above post to include the hundreds (400+ to be exact) who marched in protest of the UCPD. Also, you should read this editorial written by a Bruin writer:
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39069
"Students will not feel safe until we know that every officer licensed to use force has the ability and training to do so judiciously.

UCPD needs to put on leave Officer Terrence Duren, who discharged the Taser into Tabatabainejad, until his conduct that night is officially and independently reviewed.

We should expect more of our police than just blind-rule enforcement. Officers must solve problems rather than bluntly neutralize them.

They must treat everyone, no matter who they are, with dignity and respect. To expect anything less from the only people we allow to use guns and Tasers on us would be simply absurd."
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, an Iranian diplomat commented on the incident:
"The Turkish Press reported Mohammad-Ali Hosseini, an Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman, condemned the use of the Taser on Tabatabainejad, who is U.S.-born but of Iranian descent."
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39025
-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: mugs
He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Because he was being electrocuted! Have you ever been electrocuted? I assure you it is difficult to do anything but mumble and drool for several seconds, and the prospect of trying something like standing on your feet does not seem the most attractive idea.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
LoL that this thread is still going.

In any case, some news that came out on the 16th:
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

So basically the officers were lying when they said he was trying to incite a riot.

He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Also: "During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg [ACLU Attorney] said.

"It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge â?" that's assault," he said. "

They were interfering with the police when they were dealing with the situation. That is not the right time. After they had the guy out of the building would have been a good time.

Witnesses on the scene also described the incident as "police brutality", in their opinion:
The incident, which Zaragoza [third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident] described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed. "(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed."

http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

Well, as long as a bunch of melodramatic college students think it's police butality...

ALL the guy had to do was comply with their orders. It's obvious he was trying to make a point, because he refused to show his ID even though he had it.

Say what you want, but the police used excessive force in dealing with MT as well as the students. A confirmed 5 people (4 officers + a sergeant - http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=39047 ) should not have tased him 5+ times when he specifically said he wasn't going to fight and wanted to leave. 5 people > 1 200lb college student. Your opinion is in the minority Mugs.

I edited my above post to include the hundreds (400+ to be exact) who marched in protest of the UCPD. Also, you should read this editorial written by a Bruin writer:
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39069
"Students will not feel safe until we know that every officer licensed to use force has the ability and training to do so judiciously.

UCPD needs to put on leave Officer Terrence Duren, who discharged the Taser into Tabatabainejad, until his conduct that night is officially and independently reviewed.

We should expect more of our police than just blind-rule enforcement. Officers must solve problems rather than bluntly neutralize them.

They must treat everyone, no matter who they are, with dignity and respect. To expect anything less from the only people we allow to use guns and Tasers on us would be simply absurd."
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, an Iranian diplomat commented on the incident:
"The Turkish Press reported Mohammad-Ali Hosseini, an Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman, condemned the use of the Taser on Tabatabainejad, who is U.S.-born but of Iranian descent."
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39025
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard the guy say a lot of things, but he didn't seem to make much effort to follow through on what he said. Count the number of times the police yell at him to stand up. Why not stand up? All he did the whole time was escalate the situation.

I don't care if my opinion is in the minority. Why should that matter?

And I don't care if 400+ college students protest. College students are famous for protesting, especially at liberal colleges. Hence my melodramatic comment above.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: mugs
He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Because he was being electrocuted! Have you ever been electrocuted? I assure you it is difficult to do anything but mumble and drool for several seconds, and the prospect of trying something like standing on your feet does not seem the most attractive idea.

See Flatscan's posts above.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
LoL that this thread is still going.

In any case, some news that came out on the 16th:
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

So basically the officers were lying when they said he was trying to incite a riot.

He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Also: "During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg [ACLU Attorney] said.

"It is absolutely illegal to threaten anyone who asks for a badge â?" that's assault," he said. "

They were interfering with the police when they were dealing with the situation. That is not the right time. After they had the guy out of the building would have been a good time.

Witnesses on the scene also described the incident as "police brutality", in their opinion:
The incident, which Zaragoza [third-year English and history student who witnessed the incident] described as an example of "police brutality," left many students disturbed. "(He was) no possible danger to any of the police," Zaragoza said. "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed."

http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960

Well, as long as a bunch of melodramatic college students think it's police butality...

ALL the guy had to do was comply with their orders. It's obvious he was trying to make a point, because he refused to show his ID even though he had it.

Say what you want, but the police used excessive force in dealing with MT as well as the students. A confirmed 5 people (4 officers + a sergeant - http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=39047 ) should not have tased him 5+ times when he specifically said he wasn't going to fight and wanted to leave. 5 people > 1 200lb college student. Your opinion is in the minority Mugs.

I edited my above post to include the hundreds (400+ to be exact) who marched in protest of the UCPD. Also, you should read this editorial written by a Bruin writer:
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39069
"Students will not feel safe until we know that every officer licensed to use force has the ability and training to do so judiciously.

UCPD needs to put on leave Officer Terrence Duren, who discharged the Taser into Tabatabainejad, until his conduct that night is officially and independently reviewed.

We should expect more of our police than just blind-rule enforcement. Officers must solve problems rather than bluntly neutralize them.

They must treat everyone, no matter who they are, with dignity and respect. To expect anything less from the only people we allow to use guns and Tasers on us would be simply absurd."
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, an Iranian diplomat commented on the incident:
"The Turkish Press reported Mohammad-Ali Hosseini, an Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman, condemned the use of the Taser on Tabatabainejad, who is U.S.-born but of Iranian descent."
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39025
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I heard the guy say a lot of things, but he didn't seem to make much effort to follow through on what he said. Count the number of times the police yell at him to stand up. Why not stand up? All he did the whole time was escalate the situation.

I don't care if my opinion is in the minority. Why should that matter?

And I don't care if 400+ college students protest. College students are famous for protesting, especially at liberal colleges. Hence my melodramatic comment above.

You probably missed my edit: "Melodramatic students? They were actually witnesses, and you were not. I think their opinion holds a lot more weight than anyone on ATOT."

So hundreds of students including witnesses of said incident who say it was police brutality, writers for the school paper, the ACLU, and an Iranian diplomat from Foreign Ministry don't matter right? And feel free to comment on the confirmed 5 officers at the scene who couldn't move one kid without allowing their buddy Duren to tase him 5 times.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: mugs
He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Because he was being electrocuted! Have you ever been electrocuted? I assure you it is difficult to do anything but mumble and drool for several seconds, and the prospect of trying something like standing on your feet does not seem the most attractive idea.

See Flatscan's posts above.

The kid already said he wasn't going to fight back at all, translation: he wasn't going to move no matter what they did. Flatscan's post confirmed that tasing: in "drive stun" does not affect motor function directly, but the pain it causes may daze or disorient the target. MT was obviously disoriented/dazed from the pain, aside from the fact he said he wasn't going to fight back (i.e. move). Any intelligent officer (maybe one of the 5? lol) would have been able to ascertain this and drag him out with 3 other officers. The longer you let a martyr carry out his plan, the more dangerous the situation will escalate. They did exactly what this kid wanted, to be brutalized in public by the police. Layoffs impending for the UCPD for not using their brains.

 

[Cruisin1]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I submitted the video to my local news outlets, and national ones too.

Bottom line: he was leaving, the cops wanted to detain him, he resisted (as is his right, no crime was committed). They tasered him after they grabbed him when he was on his way out.

Then they tasered him again and again in front of dozens of students, leaving quite a shocking (no pun intended) image burned into their minds.

If these officers are not removed, the rift between student and officer will only grow deeper. This is an outrage.

Um... that is not true. You don't have to of committed a crime to be detained.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: mugs
He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Because he was being electrocuted! Have you ever been electrocuted? I assure you it is difficult to do anything but mumble and drool for several seconds, and the prospect of trying something like standing on your feet does not seem the most attractive idea.

A drive stun from a taser is not "being electrocuted". :roll:

I like how you've manage to not get hysterical about this.

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Cruisin1

Originally posted by: jpeyton
I submitted the video to my local news outlets, and national ones too.

Bottom line: he was leaving, the cops wanted to detain him, he resisted (as is his right, no crime was committed). They tasered him after they grabbed him when he was on his way out.

Then they tasered him again and again in front of dozens of students, leaving quite a shocking (no pun intended) image burned into their minds.

If these officers are not removed, the rift between student and officer will only grow deeper. This is an outrage.

Um... that is not true. You don't have to of committed a crime to be detained.

Yup, under the Material Witness statute you can be detained if the police suspect you are a terrorist. Following 9/11, the government can "detain individuals whom the government believes has information concerning a terrorist investigation. It has failed to provide them their rights to counsel, an initial hearing to determine whether the individual poses a flight risk, and prevented the individuals from contacting family members that they have been arrested. Most of these ?material witnesses? have not been charged with any crime and were proven innocent." (taken from ACLU's site)

Also check out Humanitarian Law Project v. Ashcroft where our due process rights are violated by the Patriot Act: "the court held that specific phrases in Title 18 Section 2339A, as amended by the Patriot Act section 805(a)(2)(B), violated First Amendment free speech rights and Fifth Amendment due process rights."

 

[kmmatney]

Well, I hope they put a new system in place where a student can just give his student ID number and some sort of photo ID, like a driver's license. This whole thing would have never happened if they had something like that in place (or if the student had his ID on him, like he should have).

 

[Kirby]

"Sir, I am a cop and you will respect my authori-tah!!!" Anyway, I think he deserved it.

 

[SirStev0]

If the cops at UCLA are anything like the cops at Penn State, and I am assuming every university, I am not surprised in the least. Cops around here tackle drunks, pull guns, blar around town with lights and sirens, act like complete ass hats. I have quite a few police officers in my family and for the most part I respect police a great deal however these guys are clown penii. An absolute joke. On a college campus they never get any real action so they take any opportunities they can to stroke their cop penis (think epenis with real guns).

 

[saymyname]

Holy crap. That's, as far as I'm concerned, a blatant abuse of power!

I would sue them for millions and millions. He was not a threat to anyone.

 

[saymyname]

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
The cops were in the right. When a cop tells you to do something, DO IT.

Exactly.

This kind of logic is really flawed. It only works when the cop is right. Cops aren't always right.

I've had a cop put a knife in my buddies pocket and tell him that it was used in a murder. He then told him that if he didn't give up his drugs (he didn't have any) he would be framed for the murder.

What would you do then?

Cops are there to protect the public. When they cease to do so you have a problem.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: saymyname
Holy crap. That's, as far as I'm concerned, a blatant abuse of power!

I would sue them for millions and millions. He was not a threat to anyone.

Are you another one who thinks they tazed him because he didn't have his id? :roll:

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: saymyname

Originally posted by: JackBurton

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
The cops were in the right. When a cop tells you to do something, DO IT.

Exactly.

This kind of logic is really flawed. It only works when the cop is right. Cops aren't always right.

I've had a cop put a knife in my buddies pocket and tell him that it was used in a murder. He then told him that if he didn't give up his drugs (he didn't have any) he would be framed for the murder.

What would you do then?

Cops are there to protect the public. When they cease to do so you have a problem.

No they're not. They're here to serve and protect the law. Say you've got stalker following you or your wife or whoever around. You go to the police, and they'll tell you the same thing everytime: "Did he/she break the law? Come back to us when they've broken a law." Of course, the problem is that said stalker may not break a law until they actually bust into your house and murder you or someone you love. It's a flawed system, to be sure.

 

[Dessert Tears]

Originally posted by: kmmatney
Well, I hope they put a new system in place where a student can just give his student ID number and some sort of photo ID, like a driver's license. This whole thing would have never happened if they had something like that in place (or if the student had his ID on him, like he should have).

To be clear, Yagman (MT's one-time lawyer) said that MT refused to present ID because he believed that he was being racially profiled.

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Flatscan
My earlier post covers the Lancet article in more detail.

The Lancet, Effects of stun guns and tasers.(Commentary)(Brief Article), September 1, 2001
For example, electrodes 5 cm apart [as in a Taser in "drive stun" mode] applied directly over the vastus lateralis muscle [side of the thigh] does not inhibit voluntary function of the muscle during stimulation or afterwards....

The degree of sensation evoked by these devices can result in a response that far outlasts the duration of the current, so discharges of 3-5 s may leave the victim immobilised, dazed, and weak for 5-15 min.

Briefly: a Taser in "drive stun" does not affect motor function directly, but the pain it causes may daze or disorient the target.

Sorry, got to get to work, so I don't have time to read the Lancet article yet. But...This is one data set involving the effects of stun guns. Fine. And what do the researchers propose the effects are on someone with neuralgia or some other neurodegenerative disorder? I doubt that tazers are 100% capable of not inducing paralysis. Are the cops expected to ask an assailant: "Before we Tazer you, do you suffer from Neuralgia, Trigiminal Neuralgia, or some other neuropathetic disorder?""

I imagine that finding a large enough research sample (probably about 250-300 people) to volunteer for tazering to make it a reliable study would be quite difficult...sure, there are plenty out there willing to do anything to make a few bucks--but would those people even have access to this study?

That's merely speculation on my part; but I just find it ludicrous to assume that tazering affects every individual the same way, 100% of the time.

EDIT: also, the article as quoted mentions that the electrodes must be placed on the inner part of the thigh, over one particular muscle to achieve the effects they describe (non-paralyzing). Fine for control in a study; but useless in terms of real-world practice. For hand-held tasers, this may be easier for a cop to administer more readily. But those tazers that launch spring-loaded electrodes are not going to be hitting the inside of the thigh very accurately--not with some knife-weilding maniac coming after you.

The main point of directly referencing the Lancet article is to counteract the misinformation on the effects of "stuns" due to its reference in an early Daily Bruin article. The Daily Bruin article said that MT was possibly "physically unable" to stand, which mutated into likely or definitely paralyzed.

I don't have any knowledge of neurodegenerative disorders in general, much less the specific ones you mention. However, from my understanding of stun guns, I think it is unlikely that persons suffering from those disorders would be more susceptible. The electrical discharge in a stun only penetrates deep enough to stimulate pain sensors and cannot (as tested) affect the motor function of a muscle to which it is directly applied - making it quite unlikely to disrupt the central nervous system under any circumstances. I can't comment on Tasers deployed in projectile mode.


My responses to SP33Demon from this point should be taken in addition to mugs's replies (thanks mugs).

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.

So basically the officers were lying when they said he was trying to incite a riot.

MT attracted attention by shouting, made statements that would elict sympathy ("medical condition"), and made provocative statements. It is a fact that other students attempted to intervene.

Originally posted by: Flatscan
There is audio that suggests that a male student was interfering (unintelligible male voice, then officer "Don't get involved in this") even prior to the first "stun" applied at 0:30.

MT: I SAID I WOULD LEAVE! (1:05)
O: Take a step back - if you have complaints, you can bring them up later. (1 officer visible here)
MS: I want your badge numbers.
MS: Yeah! Can we get your badge number?
MS: I'd like your badge numbers.
MT: I got Tased for no reason, I was leaving this godforsaken place, you stopped me, you're abusing your power, here's your justice at work, university students.

The officers are occupied at this point, they're not visible, but the camera position changes around 1:30 so that you can see their positions, 2 bent over MT and 1 observing.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Also: "During the altercation between Tabatabainejad and the officers, bystanders can be heard in the video repeatedly asking the officers to stop and requesting their names and identification numbers. The video showed one officer responding to a student by threatening that the student would "get Tased too." At this point, the officer was still holding a Taser.

Such a threat of the use of force by a law enforcement officer in response to a request for a badge number is an "illegal assault," Eliasberg [ACLU Attorney] said.

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Daily Bruin Video, 1:24
"Get back ... or you'll get tased too."

From approximately 4:55 onward, there is a student wearing a white shirt who is clearly agitated - gesticulating and shouting. He stands close to the officers throughout this period.

YouTube video, 6:35
O: Back up a little, back up.
[inaudible, white shirt and officer; white shirt gestures]
O: Get back over there or you're going to get tased too.
[white shirt steps back]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
A confirmed 5 people (4 officers + a sergeant - http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=39047 ) should not have tased him 5+ times when he specifically said he wasn't going to fight and wanted to leave. 5 people > 1 200lb college student.

I'm not certain that all 5 officers responded immediately - only 3 are visible during the early portion of the video.

Originally posted by: Flatscan

Originally posted by: zylander
-Tazering him that many times was way unnecessary, one was enough at the most. From the video, you can see three cops in the library, and a not so large kid laying on the floor, the cops could have EASILY dragged him out.

I posted earlier that safety dictates that all the officers should not carry MT together. Having at least one officer observing maintains their situational awareness and frees him to respond more quickly if needed.

Originally posted by: Flatscan
I've read that MT is 200lbs - not impossible to control, but a real pain to drag around for two officers. You can see the difficulty they're having as they get him through the doorway between 1:30 and 2:30.

LA Times, November 18 article
"He was 200 pounds and went limp and was very hard to manage. They were trying to get him on his feet," Young said.

Originally posted by: Flatscan
Not to draw any conclusions about MT's credibility, but his "medical condition" has not been corroborated in any article that I've seen. If anyone has a link to an article that does, it would be appreciated.

Originally posted by: SP33Demon
The kid already said he wasn't going to fight back at all, translation: he wasn't going to move no matter what they did. Flatscan's post confirmed that tasing: in "drive stun" does not affect motor function directly, but the pain it causes may daze or disorient the target. MT was obviously disoriented/dazed from the pain, aside from the fact he said he wasn't going to fight back (i.e. move).

From which point in the video (please provide a time) do you think that "MT was obviously disoriented/dazed"?

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Flatscan
From which point in the video (please provide a time) do you think that "MT was obviously disoriented/dazed"?

From which point can you prove he wasn't disoriented/dazed? If MT says he was dazed/disoriented, there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he would be lying . Even if he was not, his story would still hold up in court since he didn't resist after saying "I'm not going to fight you". Even though I think he was dazed/disoriented and you don't, it doesn't matter in court. His story will hold up b/c the cops cannot prove he wasn't. Your Lancenet article only helps his case because it proves there was a possibility he was dazed/disoriented. That possiblity is the key.

Also, 5 cops were on the scene. Did you read the link? What part of: "Duren arrived on the scene with Officers Alexis Bickamong, Kevin Kilgore and Andrew Ikeda, and the sergeant on duty was Philip Baguiao, said Nancy Greenstein, UCPD director of police community services. didn't you understand? Just because YOU couldn't identify all of them in a herky-jerky homemade video doesn't mean they weren't all there, the UCPD confirmed there were 5 on the scene.

Next: what part of ILLEGAL didn't you understand? The law is black and white, the officer had no right to threaten physical assault. The officer will be found guilty, because the video does not provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that the kid in the white shirt posed a threat. That is the only time an officer can threaten a student with physical assault.

O: Back up a little, back up.
[inaudible, white shirt and officer; white shirt gestures]
O: Get back over there or you're going to get tased too.
[white shirt steps back]

Last but not least, you say:
MT attracted attention by shouting, made statements that would elict sympathy ("medical condition"), and made provocative statements. It is a fact that other students attempted to intervene.
No students intervened at all, no student touched a police officer, no students made a direct verbal threat to the officers, period. No students intervened other than the fact they wanted badge numbers. Some voiced their displeasure, which they have the right to do under the first amendment of the constitution. They in no way exhibited any type of obstruction of justice at any time. That is the definition of intervening, and they did not intervene. You just made that up in your head. Please inform us what law the students broke, and how they intervened in a way that was against the law? Were there verbal threats against the officers? Um, no. Students telling the cops to let him go, you're hurting him, are not a direct threat to an officer and fully within the students' first amendment rights.

To repeat what the Bruin newspaper says: Neither the video footage nor eyewitness accounts of the events confirmed that Tabatabainejad encouraged resistance, and he repeatedly told the officers he was not fighting and would leave.
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960
Resistance would be defined as breaking the law, i.e. obstruction of justice, which did not happen. MT said "help", which is not inciting a riot, lol.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: mugs
He screamed to get the attention of other students. Who do you think "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your ***** abuse of power" was directed at? He told the officers he was not fighting and would leave, so why didn't he DO IT? When they repeatedly told him to get up, why not GET UP?

Because he was being electrocuted! Have you ever been electrocuted? I assure you it is difficult to do anything but mumble and drool for several seconds, and the prospect of trying something like standing on your feet does not seem the most attractive idea.

See Flatscan's posts above.

Dude, he was in handcuffs when they tasered him the 3rd time. Do you think it's appropriate to taser someone who is in cuffs and whose body is already limp from all the tasering they did already?