Gun violence. Is it the guns or is it the criminals?

[dank69]

Great counterpoint, I hope you didn't work on that all morning.

I bet you couldn't do it if you tried. I mean, I understand the point you were trying to make, but it wasn't a valid argument.

Regardless, being easy is a major part of the equation, but it isn't the only factor. Desire to do the thing is also part of it. When you add emotional response and ease of access together you get more bad results than with any other "tool."

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I bet you couldn't do it if you tried. I mean, I understand the point you were trying to make, but it wasn't a valid argument.

Regardless, being easy is a major part of the equation, but it isn't the only factor. Desire to do the thing is also part of it. When you add emotional response and ease of access together you get more bad results than with any other "tool."

Clearly this has been a distraction, let me revise my statment.

Doing anything when it's easy and not doing it when it's hard is human nature. Path of least resistance and all ...

So is killing yourself by running your car into a tree, not many people do that, right? So why are you trying to say it's at all reasonable that people are willing to kill others when it's easy?


I hope this can finally end this particular line of back and forth.

 

[fskimospy]

This has been pretty definitively answered by voluminous empirical research. It’s the guns.

Period.

 

[nOOky]

100% firearms are designed to kill people or animals. As a firearms owner and gun nut who has been around them most of my life starting from a squirrel hunting youth to time in the Army to currently being a plinker and target shooter I acknowledge that fact. I am around other gun nuts a lot, online and in person. I can tell you that the majority of them are in favor of limiting ownership and background checks etc. Simply asking them if a lunatic should be able to purchase a gun and common sense says nope. The other percent says anyone should be able to own anything at anytime and carry it anywhere.

I believe president Obama gave a great explanation of how we could help with the gun violence problem if you've ever watched that video interaction online, I'll try to attach it. I don't think the US will ever be able to solve the issue as the gun culture is so ingrained here. History has shown us that civilian populations can be vulnerable to oppressive governments, especially when all you have to fight with is words. The current oppressive regime here in the US shows us how the government can simply do what it wishes against it's own population with regards to the un-constitutional shit ICE is doing. Liberals in the US are arming themselves as the vague fear of a civil war leaves some with no desire to be slaughtered by a bunch of meal team six fatheads simply because the only defense is another gun.

 

[fskimospy]

100% firearms are designed to kill people or animals. As a firearms owner and gun nut who has been around them most of my life starting from a squirrel hunting youth to time in the Army to currently being a plinker and target shooter I acknowledge that fact. I am around other gun nuts a lot, online and in person. I can tell you that the majority of them are in favor of limiting ownership and background checks etc. Simply asking them if a lunatic should be able to purchase a gun and common sense says nope. The other percent says anyone should be able to own anything at anytime and carry it anywhere.

I believe president Obama gave a great explanation of how we could help with the gun violence problem if you've ever watched that video interaction online, I'll try to attach it. I don't think the US will ever be able to solve the issue as the gun culture is so ingrained here. History has shown us that civilian populations can be vulnerable to oppressive governments, especially when all you have to fight with is words. The current oppressive regime here in the US shows us how the government can simply do what it wishes against it's own population with regards to the un-constitutional shit ICE is doing. Liberals in the US are arming themselves as the vague fear of a civil war leaves some with no desire to be slaughtered by a bunch of meal team six fatheads simply because the only defense is another gun.

I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but all the people who said for years that we needed to own guns to resist government tyranny are very on board with actual government tyranny. It was always bullshit.

It’s simple. Guns exist because they are a very effective way to kill people. When you give people easier means to kill each other and themselves they do it more.

Really it’s common sense. The problem is a lot of gun people don’t like what common sense tells them so they are always looking for some reason, any reason, as to why it’s not the guns.

 

[Brainonska511]

I can tell you that the majority of them are in favor of limiting ownership and background checks etc. Simply asking them if a lunatic should be able to purchase a gun and common sense says nope.

Yeah, and none of them are lunatics, until they are, and then they are retconned out of the Reasonable/Responsible Gun Owners Club.

 

[MrSquished]

The argument was valid. I was told that the reason people kill each other with firearms was because it was easy, I provided an absurd counterpoint to show that was a fallacious argument. I wasn't even the one that brought up cyanide tablets, I was just pointing out that they don't have an intended use aside from the one we protect the population from (suicide). If you want to attack the argument, please feel free to do so.

You prove nothing. The data proves it is exactly correct. When guns are available, which are highly efficient killing tools which also separate the killer from the messiness and struggle of close combat killing, homicides just pile up, including much higher than other similar countries with violence rates but no guns.

I mean it's not debatable. The data is the data. In this thread right here you're like an intellectual Gumby - boy you can bend.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You prove nothing. The data proves it is exactly correct. When guns are available, which are highly efficient killing tools which also separate the killer from the messiness and struggle of close combat killing, homicides just pile up, including much higher than other similar countries with violence rates but no guns.

I mean it's not debatable. The data is the data. In this thread right here you're like an intellectual Gumby - boy you can bend.

Never argued that point, only thing I ever said is that efforts in the US would be better put toward improving mental health rather than changing the constitution. I've said this many, many times on this very forum, that we'll continue to have this discussion for decades while children keep getting gunned down in schools, because you cannot get republicans to fucking budge on firearm controls. So I'll keep saying 'let's try another way' and you'll keep saying 'no we gotta argue with republicans more' and next week there'll be another mass shooting.

 

[Pens1566]

The argument was valid. I was told that the reason people kill each other with firearms was because it was easy, I provided an absurd counterpoint to show that was a fallacious argument. I wasn't even the one that brought up cyanide tablets, I was just pointing out that they don't have an intended use aside from the one we protect the population from (suicide). If you want to attack the argument, please feel free to do so.

I already did. You keep saying "yeah, but mental health" even though it's been shown to be no different than other civilized nations.

And despite your absurd examples, yes human beings do tend be deterred by difficulty. It's not really an argument.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I already did. You keep saying "yeah, but mental health" even though it's been shown to be no different than other civilized nations.

And despite your absurd examples, yes human beings do tend be deterred by difficulty. It's not really an argument.

So you're fine with people who want to kill others, but are just deterred by difficulty?

 

[Pens1566]

I’m not sure if you’ve noticed but all the people who said for years that we needed to own guns to resist government tyranny are very on board with actual government tyranny. It was always bullshit.

It’s simple. Guns exist because they are a very effective way to kill people. When you give people easier means to kill each other and themselves they do it more.

Really it’s common sense. The problem is a lot of gun people don’t like what common sense tells them so they are always looking for some reason, any reason, as to why it’s not the guns.

It's also amusing that a large portion of that group is staunchly in favor of the current fascist regime and their actions.

Guess it wasn't about preventing tyranny at all ...

 

[Pens1566]

So you're fine with people who want to kill others, but are just deterred by difficulty?

You're never going to get rid of that aspect of the species. It's a waste of time to try because of low ROI.

It's the guns. You know, the easy part.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You're never going to get rid of that aspect of the species. It's a waste of time to try because of low ROI.

It's the guns. You know, the easy part.

You think improving the mental health of our species is a low ROI? That's a bold position.

The guns clearly isn't the easy part since we're here discussing it, despite shit like columbine, sandy hook, pulse, etc.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

The easiest thing to do, apparently based on real life is play hardball with supreme Court picks and staff the court with sycophants that will interpret the constitution however a "pro-gun but maybe we need some basic ass licensing here" President sees fit.

Mental health? Constitution? Bruh this is America.

Maybe we reopen Sanitariums and just throw people in there and forget about them. That seems reasonably draconian enough to pass for mental health treatment in the US.

 

[dank69]

Clearly this has been a distraction, let me revise my statment.

So is killing yourself by running your car into a tree, not many people do that, right? So why are you trying to say it's at all reasonable that people are willing to kill others when it's easy?


I hope this can finally end this particular line of back and forth.

What is easier? Pulling the trigger of a gun in your house; or getting in your car, getting up to speed and finding something solid to run into? Which takes longer?

 

[dank69]

You think improving the mental health of our species is a low ROI? That's a bold position.

The guns clearly isn't the easy part since we're here discussing it, despite shit like columbine, sandy hook, pulse, etc.

It isn't easy, but it is certainly easier than addressing the mental health of the entire population.

 

[HomerJS]

There is nothing wrong inherently with fixing a leaking damn rather than building another downstream. The real problem is that fixing leaks is all that ever happens because the real cause of gun violence is self hate and people are in denial about that and profoundly motivated to stay that way. Fixing leaks gives people who unconsciously want to escape the emotional burden created by denial of the real cause of violence, the violence within them, a sense they are actually doing something when what they are really doing is assuaging their own feelings of guilt.

This post will similarly be ignored be ignored.

Is the rate of self hate so much greater in the US vs the UK? Please provide some evidence.

 

[Pens1566]

You think improving the mental health of our species is a low ROI? That's a bold position.

The guns clearly isn't the easy part since we're here discussing it, despite shit like columbine, sandy hook, pulse, etc.

In terms of the gun deaths, issue? Yeah, I do. Because it's not the issue. You take on the low hanging fruit first and get the biggest impact.

And again, considering that not all gun deaths are related to mental health issues, this is a huge fucking tangent for a small subset of the overall problem.

 

[HomerJS]

Okay so where are the people firing on ICE agents? What do you think would happen to you if you shot an ICE agent?

Look, I agree with you in theory that we shouldn't trust the government to be the only ones with firearms, but we are way past the point where it will make much difference now.

If an ICE agent is killed we are now in full martial law. A bit outside the intended scope of this thread but Trump is responsible for that. In fact, he wants a dead ICE agent to give him an excuse to go full ML. He has been steadily ratcheting up the tension filled confrontations.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It isn't easy, but it is certainly easier than addressing the mental health of the entire population.

You say certainly, and I don't know why you're so certain. We've had zero movement aside from bump stock bans in like half a century.

Imagine what half a century of mental health education could have done.

In terms of the gun deaths, issue? Yeah, I do. Because it's not the issue. You take on the low hanging fruit first and get the biggest impact.

And again, considering that not all gun deaths are related to mental health issues, this is a huge fucking tangent for a small subset of the overall problem.

If it's low-hanging fruit, why haven't we picked it yet?

 

[Brainonska511]

So you're fine with people who want to kill others, but are just deterred by difficulty?

I think you're confusing medical "mental health problems" with colloquial "mental health", and it serves to absolve gun owners of their contribution to mass violence and death. If I recall the statistics, people with diagnosed mental health issues are actually more likely to be victims of gun violence than to be perpetrators of it.

 

[HomerJS]

As a side quiz, what was the event that caused the country to get serious about gun control?

 

[Pens1566]

You say certainly, and I don't know why you're so certain. We've had zero movement aside from bump stock bans in like half a century.

Imagine what half a century of mental health education could have done.

If it's low-hanging fruit, why haven't we picked it yet?

Because of politics.

And it's not true we've had "zero movement". The '94 legislation ("Assault weapons ban") was shown to have lowered gun violence. We let it expire. Because politics.

 

[Pens1566]

As a side quiz, what was the event that caused the country to get serious about gun control?

Trick question. We've never been serious about gun control.

Although the closest would be the attempt on Reagan.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think you're confusing medical "mental health problems" with colloquial "mental health", and it serves to absolve gun owners of their contribution to mass violence and death. If I recall the statistics, people with diagnosed mental health issues are actually more likely to be victims of gun violence than to be perpetrators of it.

I'm meaning it in an over-arching sense, as in 'some bloke who's otherwise normal might snap under the right conditions' shouldn't be considered 'ok' by normal mental health standards.