Gun violence. Is it the guns or is it the criminals?

[HomerJS]

To be clear, i'm not talking about the US specifically, I'm talking about a global phenomenon. For purposes of discussion I can only point out the US' nature, but the problems we face aren't limited to us.

That the point. Seems all the explanations for US gun violence are not out of line if not lower vs other countries but the level of gun deaths are unique to the US

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

That the point. Seems all the explanations for US gun violence are not out of line if not lower vs other countries but the level of gun deaths are unique to the US

Oh don't get me wrong, if you melted every gun in America obviously there'd be a lot less gun deaths. I just think we can swing a little harder than that and deal with the reason why people want to kill each other so freely to begin with. Someone who's got underlying conditions that result in a decision to take lives with a firearm isn't going to just be better because they had access to a firearm, it's going to exhibit elsewhere.

I think the cost of letting that happen is higher than the cost of dealing with the problem to begin with.

 

[Pens1566]

Oh don't get me wrong, if you melted every gun in America obviously there'd be a lot less gun deaths. I just think we can swing a little harder than that and deal with the reason why people want to kill each other so freely to begin with. Someone who's got underlying conditions that result in a decision to take lives with a firearm isn't going to just be better because they had access to a firearm, it's going to exhibit elsewhere.

I think the cost of letting that happen is higher than the cost of dealing with the problem to begin with.

I think this discounts the tendency to just drop an idea when the effort required to go through with it increases drastically. Like you said, it won't make them better, but it's also going to put them off their idea.

The only real statistical outliers for our unique situation are the # of gun deaths and the # of guns. It's not video games, it's not movies/music, it's not mental health.

 

[nickqt]

Here we are, the khaki pants gestapo is running around kidnapping people off the streets. If each community organized and made us of their second amendment rights, you would see far less of the gestapo. Their masks and erratic behavior makes clear that they're cowards, like most fascists and fascist enablers.

Notice how they're hitting states and cities where citizens are more restricted on what kind of firearms they can use to protect themselves, their families, and their communities. Just a coincidence I'm sure. Decent people on the left should continue making the argument that only the government should be able to use the second amendment and everyone else shouldn't even be allowed to own a semi-automatic firearm. Totally not an own-goal in the long run, and my saying that dozens of times here on these very forums is just pearl clutching.

I'm sure everything is actually just fine and those of us on the left who've been talking for years about the exact scenario that is playing out right now are just being dramatic and exaggerating things. Surely our Federal Government is concerned with our safety and should have an absolute monopoly on firearm possession and usage.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think this discounts the tendency to just drop an idea when the effort required to go through with it increases drastically. Like you said, it won't make them better, but it's also going to put them off their idea.

The only real statistical outliers for our unique situation are the # of gun deaths and the # of guns. It's not video games, it's not movies/music, it's not mental health.

But it is mental health, unless you're prepared to say that killing people when it's easy is part of human nature.

As I said before, if your goal is to reduce gun violence, yes, get rid of the guns. If your goal is to have a peaceful society that doesn't want to murder children, guns aren't where our efforts should be focused.

 

[Pens1566]

But it is mental health, unless you're prepared to say that killing people when it's easy is part of human nature.

As I said before, if your goal is to reduce gun violence, yes, get rid of the guns. If your goal is to have a peaceful society that doesn't want to murder children, guns aren't where our efforts should be focused.

Doing anything when it's easy and not doing it when it's hard is human nature. Path of least resistance and all ...

What I'm saying is that mental health #s aren't enough of an outlier (one way or another, others are higher) to explain it. Lots of countries have similar mental health #s, no guns, and they have much lower gun violence rates. Australia is a famous example. Even suicide rates don't correlate. Japan is a few % pts higher than the US.

And not everyone that has mental issues is a gun criminal either.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Doing anything when it's easy and not doing it when it's hard is human nature. Path of least resistance and all ...

I mean, eating shit out of the toilet is pretty easy, not many people do that, right? So why are you trying to say it's at all reasonable that people are willing to kill others when it's easy?

What I'm saying is that mental health #s aren't enough of an outlier (one way or another, others are higher) to explain it. Lots of countries have similar mental health #s, no guns, and they have much lower gun violence rates. Australia is a famous example. Even suicide rates don't correlate. Japan is a few % pts higher than the US.

And I'm saying that humanity, but especially americans, have widespread unaddressed mental health issues. Perhaps with other countries, if they had freer access to firearms, they'd be just as nutty with them. Again though, if you're trying to solve people dying to firearms, yes, attack the firearms. I personally think the problem runs deeper, and we'll get more solved by focusing on mental health, that's just me though.

 

[Pontius Dilate]

I mean, eating shit out of the toilet is pretty easy, not many people do that, right? So why are you trying to say it's at all reasonable that people are willing to kill others when it's easy?

And I'm saying that humanity, but especially americans, have widespread unaddressed mental health issues. Perhaps with other countries, if they had freer access to firearms, they'd be just as nutty with them. Again though, if you're trying to solve people dying to firearms, yes, attack the firearms. I personally think the problem runs deeper, and we'll get more solved by focusing on mental health, that's just me though.

Between solving people dying by firearms and solving mental health issues at large scales, addressing firearms is far, far easier and guaranteed to reduce death. We will not address the firearm problem in the US, but we also won't address the mental health problem, because the US is deeply stupid and short-sighted. But if we wanted to get maximum bang for the buck in the short term, no pun intended, solving the firearms problem is the first issue to address.

 

[eelw]

Haven’t had a gun nutter circle jerk topic in a while

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

addressing firearms is far, far easier

I am not convinced of that.

 

[yottabit]

The way I look at it is, guns intrinsic purpose is killing.

We don’t, as a society, allow any other item who’s purpose it is to kill to be so widely available.

Why can’t I walk into Walmart and buy a pack of 100 cyanide tablets? Maybe I consider it my hobby to collect them. And I like to throw them at targets on the wall.

Does that mean they should be widely available to anyone? How are guns different?

 

[yottabit]

Guns are a tool. A very efficient tool. So efficient that you can kill people before you even have a chance to think about it. It's a lot harder to do the same with a knife or a hammer or whatever other non-explosive tool you can think of.

If we were being intellectually honest guns are weapons. Lethal weapons. Calling it a tool and likening it to a hammer is ridiculous.

What bothers me is not whether people are pro or anti-gun or 2A but the mental gymnastics and logical pretzels they contort themselves into when these discussions come up

 

[pmv]

I mean, eating shit out of the toilet is pretty easy, not many people do that, right? So why are you trying to say it's at all reasonable that people are willing to kill others when it's easy?

And I'm saying that humanity, but especially americans, have widespread unaddressed mental health issues. Perhaps with other countries, if they had freer access to firearms, they'd be just as nutty with them. Again though, if you're trying to solve people dying to firearms, yes, attack the firearms. I personally think the problem runs deeper, and we'll get more solved by focusing on mental health, that's just me though.

I'm pretty sure that if guns were as widely available in the UK as in the US, we'd be killing each other, and ourselves, in even greater numbers than Americans do.
(I mean, we try our best to get the numbers up as it is, even with just knives and fists)

But it is mental health, unless you're prepared to say that killing people when it's easy is part of human nature.

I don't see how anyone could look at human history and deny that is the case.


I don't see any scope for debate around the fact that the more easily-available guns are, the more killings there will be. Including suicides. The data seems pretty clear on that.

The tricky part is the question around the citizen's relationship with the state. If I were a pro-gun type, that's the bit I'd focus on. I feel a bit of cogitative dissonance myself, given that I simultaneously find myself thinking "the state should restrict access to guns" and "you can't trust the state".

 

[pmv]

...though what's currently happening in the US doesn't seem to be supporting the argument that "an armed populace prevents the state from turning tyrannical".

 

[Moonbeam]

I am not convinced of that.

There is nothing wrong inherently with fixing a leaking damn rather than building another downstream. The real problem is that fixing leaks is all that ever happens because the real cause of gun violence is self hate and people are in denial about that and profoundly motivated to stay that way. Fixing leaks gives people who unconsciously want to escape the emotional burden created by denial of the real cause of violence, the violence within them, a sense they are actually doing something when what they are really doing is assuaging their own feelings of guilt.

This post will similarly be ignored be ignored.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The way I look at it is, guns intrinsic purpose is killing.

We don’t, as a society, allow any other item who’s purpose it is to kill to be so widely available.

Why can’t I walk into Walmart and buy a pack of 100 cyanide tablets? Maybe I consider it my hobby to collect them. And I like to throw them at targets on the wall.

Does that mean they should be widely available to anyone? How are guns different?

As far as I'm aware, cyanide tablets don't have a particularly good use outside of suicide. You can kill yourself pretty fast with bleach too, but we keep that in reach of children in most households.

Firearms are very good at killing, but that doesn't mean innocent humans are the intended target. Whether a right should be restricted based on what someone else might do with it is a constant debate.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I don't see how anyone could look at human history and deny that is the case.

Funny you say that, given that human history is primarily written by conquerors. I wonder if every peoples conquered by England, Spain, the Mongols, the Azteks, the ancient Chinese, etc would say the same.

given that I simultaneously find myself thinking "the state should restrict access to guns" and "you can't trust the state".

Yeah that's a problem. Regardless of the path chosen, it requires a strong government to initiate the change and guide the people on a path forward. We aren't getting that anytime soon.

There is nothing wrong inherently with fixing a leaking damn rather than building another downstream. The real problem is that fixing leaks is all that ever happens because the real cause of gun violence is self hate and people are in denial about that and profoundly motivated to stay that way. Fixing leaks gives people who unconsciously want to escape the emotional burden created by denial of the real cause of violence, the violence within them, a sense they are actually doing something when what they are really doing is assuaging their own feelings of guilt.

This post will similarly be ignored be ignored.

This reminds me of a funny video I watched a while back. The overall theme was dealing with our current existence overall, but a specific part was both hilarious and hit very close to home (i've got family members who exhibit similar behaviors). The character was pseduo-mockingly creating a whiteboard or whatever and writing down all the problems they had/stuff they had to do on little post-its and putting them on the board, and said something along the lines of 'by writing down all my problems, it makes me feel like I'm getting something accomplished while not actually solving anything! *thumb's up*'

 

[dank69]

But it is mental health, unless you're prepared to say that killing people when it's easy is part of human nature.

As I said before, if your goal is to reduce gun violence, yes, get rid of the guns. If your goal is to have a peaceful society that doesn't want to murder children, guns aren't where our efforts should be focused.

Making rash decisions is 100% part of human nature.

 

[dank69]

Here we are, the khaki pants gestapo is running around kidnapping people off the streets. If each community organized and made us of their second amendment rights, you would see far less of the gestapo. Their masks and erratic behavior makes clear that they're cowards, like most fascists and fascist enablers.

Notice how they're hitting states and cities where citizens are more restricted on what kind of firearms they can use to protect themselves, their families, and their communities. Just a coincidence I'm sure. Decent people on the left should continue making the argument that only the government should be able to use the second amendment and everyone else shouldn't even be allowed to own a semi-automatic firearm. Totally not an own-goal in the long run, and my saying that dozens of times here on these very forums is just pearl clutching.

I'm sure everything is actually just fine and those of us on the left who've been talking for years about the exact scenario that is playing out right now are just being dramatic and exaggerating things. Surely our Federal Government is concerned with our safety and should have an absolute monopoly on firearm possession and usage.

Okay so where are the people firing on ICE agents? What do you think would happen to you if you shot an ICE agent?

Look, I agree with you in theory that we shouldn't trust the government to be the only ones with firearms, but we are way past the point where it will make much difference now.

 

[Pens1566]

As far as I'm aware, cyanide tablets don't have a particularly good use outside of suicide. You can kill yourself pretty fast with bleach too, but we keep that in reach of children in most households.

Firearms are very good at killing, but that doesn't mean innocent humans are the intended target. Whether a right should be restricted based on what someone else might do with it is a constant debate.

We're now bringing up ... checks notes ... 1) eating shit out of a toilet and 2) cyanide tablets.

Sure, those are entirely valid comparisons with similar usages and access.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

We're now bringing up ... checks notes ... 1) eating shit out of a toilet and 2) cyanide tablets.

Sure, those are entirely valid comparisons with similar usages and access.

The argument was valid. I was told that the reason people kill each other with firearms was because it was easy, I provided an absurd counterpoint to show that was a fallacious argument. I wasn't even the one that brought up cyanide tablets, I was just pointing out that they don't have an intended use aside from the one we protect the population from (suicide). If you want to attack the argument, please feel free to do so.

 

[yottabit]

Firearms are very good at killing, but that doesn't mean innocent humans are the intended target. Whether a right should be restricted based on what someone else might do with it is a constant debate.

You don’t think the intent of what they were designed to do is a factor?

Isn’t that how we commonly define the “purpose” of something?

Anyway, I only partly made my point about the cyanide tablets. Where I wanted to go with that it is - as a society we’ve somehow agreed to regulate medications and other substances that might possibly hurt someone if mis-used, that we can’t even buy things with purely innocent applications like antibiotics or certain life saving drugs without a doctor’s prescription and in a lot of cases you can only purchase very limited quantities.

And yet I can walk into Walmart and buy boxes of 100 ultra-lethal ammunition like they’re nothing, for less than it would cost me to buy a new outfit.

It’s quite the disconnect.

Selling poison pills over the counter was about the closest analogy I could come up with. Think of how far away we are from that, in every other area besides guns.

Do you think if you designed a new type of “tool” today who’s clear and main purpose is to kill people, you’d be allowed to sell it broadly and without restriction? Should you be?

 

[dank69]

The argument was valid. I was told that the reason people kill each other with firearms was because it was easy, I provided an absurd counterpoint to show that was a fallacious argument. I wasn't even the one that brought up cyanide tablets, I was just pointing out that they don't have an intended use aside from the one we protect the population from (suicide). If you want to attack the argument, please feel free to do so.

Go try to eat some shit out of the toilet and tell us how easy it is.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You don’t think the intent of what they were designed to do is a factor?

Isn’t that how we commonly define the “purpose” of something?

Anyway, I only partly made my point about the cyanide tablets. Where I wanted to go with that it is - as a society we’ve somehow agreed to regulate medications and other substances that might possibly hurt someone if mis-used, that we can’t even buy things with purely innocent applications like antibiotics or certain life saving drugs without a doctor’s prescription and in a lot of cases you can only purchase very limited quantities.

And yet I can walk into Walmart and buy boxes of 100 ultra-lethal ammunition like they’re nothing, for less than it would cost me to buy a new outfit.

It’s quite the disconnect.

Selling poison pills over the counter was about the closest analogy I could come up with. Think of how far away we are from that, in every other area besides guns.

Do you think if you designed a new type of “tool” today who’s clear and main purpose is to kill people, you’d be allowed to sell it broadly and without restriction? Should you be?

So this is actually a good argument, thank you for bringing it up. You're correct in that there's lots of things we manufacture/create that aren't inherently harmful but can be used to harm, that we do indeed regulate. Most of them are not enshrined in the constitution, though (vehicles are a wibbly-wobbly one). Should they be? Potentially not, there's a long conversation to have as to why the right to appropriate self-defense is something that should be guaranteed to all citizens, especially if the police forces are more concerned with protecting themselves than the citizens. Whether or not we can actually effect change on the constitution is a much, much bigger question though. There was a time when it was much more of a possibility, now though? I worry it'd just require reforming the govt itself.

Regarding your question, probably not. We do however permit lots of things who's primary purpose is to either hurt other people or extract money from them, and that's permitted all day long. I'm not trying to sidetrack this, just pointing out that humans are absolute shit at protecting each other if there's something to gain for themselves. Prisoner dilemma in action I suppose.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Go try to eat some shit out of the toilet and tell us how easy it is.

Great counterpoint, I hope you didn't work on that all morning.