Gun question: Which is better 9mm or 10mm?

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: dnuggett

If you're fighting with a firearm at anything more than a few feet, you WILL miss before you hit anything. A 357, .44 or .50 round will go right through your walls, and right through your neighbor's walls.

Not necessarily true, some of that will depend on the load you are using and rigidity of the walls, obviously.

It would also depend on whether a sheet of 1" thick steel falls out of a transport plane and comes to rest right next to your house at the precise moment you pull the trigger. Or whether a tornado picks up a Nissan Pathfinder and flings it directly between your wayward bullet and the toddler sleeping three doors down. What's your point?

The thickness of your walls and the load you use are known variables, smartass. Knowing those variables can allow you to use a .357 or .44 Mag which can be a much more effective HD/SD choice depending on the individuals ability to handle them. My point was your blanket statement sucked.

 

[DeMeo]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
11 mm

"These go to eleven."

 

[Metron]

Originally posted by: Mookow

Unless you get one with a really short barrel. But that involves a fair amount of paperwork to acquire, legally.

Thought I'd drop this in from an old post....

03/10/2005 03:56 PM



Metron
Senior Member

Posts: 257
Joined: 10/16/2003
Coming in late on the topic here... only read the first page of responses, but I thought I'd offer my perspective. I highly recommend you and your family to take training courses in handling a firearm. Get a gun safe, or at least trigger locks to keep them out of reach of children.

I agree with responses for a shotgun, but with a twist. A blast from a shotgun shell is very effective at close range, and yet is not as likely to penetrate one (or more) walls and injure your family or neighbors. The disadvantage is that a shotgun is typically long and unwieldy. A sawed-off shotgun would be ideal, but to own one is illegal without a Federal Class C firearms license.

You can purchase a short barrelled shotgun ( I believe the legal limit is an 18" barrel ) with a folding stock or pistol grip, but I have a better alternative. Purchase a .44 magnum Revolver with a 4 or 6 inch barrel, like the Ruger RedHawk... and load it with .44 shot shells. These are essentially shotgun shells made from a .44 cartridge. For comparison, a 12 gauge shotgun shell is essentially the same size as a .50 caliber shell.

You'll have a LEGAL, compact 6-shot shotgun... which is essentially the same size as a sawed-off shotgun.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Fingers
The 10mm is a slightly more powerfull round. They are basically the same diameter but the 10mm has a higher velocity.

You are more limited in the selection of ammunition though campared to a .40S&W.

If you are interested in a Glock you may also want to check out a springfield XD available in .40S&W as well. They offer a 3,4 and 5 inch model and also a 4" ported model. Very similar to a glock but offer a grip safety which the glocks do not offer.

More info can be found here.

Slightly more powerful? Um, the 10mm is significantly more powerful than a 9mm.

Muzzle velocity is similar between 9mm and 10mm but bullet weight is significantly greater in 10mm. A typical 9mm round is 115-135gr. A typical 10mm round is 155-200 grain. 9mm muzzle energy is typically around 420 but the 10mm has a muzzle energy of around 700.

10mm is significantly more powerful. Oh, they aren't "basically the same diameter" either. A 9mm round would fall freely through a 10mm barrel.

 

[g8wayrebel]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: LeadMagnet
shotgun is best

Sure, if you want to mud'n'tape your entire front living room after pumping one round at the guy who just busted in the front door.

While you may have to mud and tape your front wall and replace the door , you also have to clean the bad guy off the porch!:thumbsup:

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Fingers
The 10mm is a slightly more powerfull round. They are basically the same diameter but the 10mm has a higher velocity.

You are more limited in the selection of ammunition though campared to a .40S&W.

If you are interested in a Glock you may also want to check out a springfield XD available in .40S&W as well. They offer a 3,4 and 5 inch model and also a 4" ported model. Very similar to a glock but offer a grip safety which the glocks do not offer.

More info can be found here.

Slightly more powerful? Um, the 10mm is significantly more powerful than a 9mm.

Muzzle velocity is similar between 9mm and 10mm but bullet weight is significantly greater in 10mm. A typical 9mm round is 115-135gr. A typical 10mm round is 155-200 grain. 9mm muzzle energy is typically around 420 but the 10mm has a muzzle energy of around 700.

10mm is significantly more powerful. Oh, they aren't "basically the same diameter" either. A 9mm round would fall freely through a 10mm barrel.

was comparing 10mm and .40S&W

 

[exdeath]

10mm is worlds apart of the 9mm europellet (btw the 10mm is actually US made!) The 10mm in fact has more energy at 50 yards than the .45 ACP does at the muzzle and is often used for big game hunting!!!. 10mm is basically the power of the .41 magnum in an auto pistol. 10mm = .400 inches, thus .40 S&W and 10mm bullets are the same ranging from 135gr to 200gr. The 10mm however has a slightly longer case which is much stronger to be able to withstand the magnum spec pressures generated when firing. The .40 S&W case however is NOT simply a shortened 10mm case, as there is significant difference in the case wall thickness, case webbing, primer pocket, etc. The 10mm was a bit too powerful for most people, thus the .40 S&W was designed to achieve the same goal of a 180gr bullet at 950 fps that the 10mm meet and exceeded; albeit with a shorter case due to the 10mm being under loaded to meet those specs.

The 10mm auto is a very fun round to play with, but I wouldn't recommend it for defensive handgun for the following reasons (especially for a first gun):

1) Severe over penetration (liability for hitting bystanders and damaging property, etc)

2) 10mm is sort of a niche cartridge not enjoying the wide spread acceptance of 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP hence ammo isn?t as plentiful.

3) Severe recoil and control issues under rapid fire; think *magnum*

4) Higher ammo cost = buy less ammo = practice less often = makes YOU more dangerous

5) Very few choices of manufactures that make 10mm. Sig and H&K for example, two of the most desirable brands, do not offer a chambering in 10mm at this moment. Colt and S&W 1911 style 10mm frames are no longer in production, leaving you pretty much no other choice for a new 10mm but Glock.

I would suggest 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP for a defensive sidearm.

.40 S&W is a favorite of mine because it makes the choice for you: you get the mass, momentum, and large bore of the .45 ACP with the velocity, penetration, controllability, and ammo capacity of the 9mm; the best of both words without having to overkill.

I personally carry a fullsize H&K USP .40

H&K is on the expensive side, but then again, so is a Ferrari 😉

I get ammo at $165 a case (1000 rds, or $8.25 box for 180gr FMJ) here in town.

http://members.cox.net/csbaker-az/ammo.jpg

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

I often break the 1000 round mark every month.

 

[BillyBatson]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: LeadMagnet
shotgun is best

Sure, if you want to mud'n'tape your entire front living room after pumping one round at the guy who just busted in the front door.

haha that's the way to go!

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

I often break the 1000 round mark every month.

Thats great for those of us who can afford that much ammo 🙂

But for a new shooter getting a first gun in some excessively large or obscure caliber with $20 per 20rd box ammo... Those are nice to have as toys but when it's your first and only gun you want something you can beat up and shoot often at the range and still put someone down if you are called upon to do so.


hehe, from another gun thread:

Originally posted by: Fingers
I've been trying to stay out of this thread to some degree as I am for gun rights, I will be getting the exact same rifle fairly soon, although it will be used to kill ground hogs as the ammo costs of my .300 WSM is way too high for varmints. I also think that there are some people who have posted in this thread don't seem to be responsible enough although that is hard to tell on a forum.

So yeah obviously ammo cost is in issue when you shoot alot, and the more you shoot the better!

I can imagine some folks here on AT just want a gun they can shoot often and not have to sacrifice their SLI rigs to do so.

... .300 WSM on varmints lol...

 

[huesmann]

Originally posted by: Sunbird
Hey, why not have a shotgun and flamethrower in one?!

They're called Dragonsbreath rounds. 😀

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

I often break the 1000 round mark every month.

Thats great for those of us who can afford that much ammo 🙂

But for a new shooter getting a first gun in some excessively large or obscure caliber with $20 per 20rd box ammo... Those are nice to have as toys but when it's your first and only gun you want something you can beat up and shoot often at the range and still put someone down if you are called upon to do so.


hehe, from another gun thread:

Originally posted by: Fingers
I've been trying to stay out of this thread to some degree as I am for gun rights, I will be getting the exact same rifle fairly soon, although it will be used to kill ground hogs as the ammo costs of my .300 WSM is way too high for varmints. I also think that there are some people who have posted in this thread don't seem to be responsible enough although that is hard to tell on a forum.

So yeah obviously ammo cost is in issue when you shoot alot, and the more you shoot the better!

I can imagine some folks here on AT just want a gun they can shoot often and not have to sacrifice their SLI rigs to do so.

... .300 WSM on varmints lol...

I was refering to handgun ammo costs in particular for this thread. Target shooting loads are fairly inexpensive although there is a price difference i'll admit.

About the .300WSM ammo I have it all sighted in to use 150 winchester supreme balistic silver tips for deer hunting. Depending on where you get them they can be up to $2 per shot.

There is this guy who lets me deer hunt on his farm and all he asks is that I shoot whatever I see and come in the spring a couple times for ground hogs. I enjoy shooting them, but at 50 in a day sometimes, I just need to get a target load for them but just too lazy to sight in my scope for one.

 

[Cleaner]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: Cleaner
In response to what people were saying about shots 2-15. If you have to fire 15 shots with your gun to hit the guy you don't deserve to be shooting that piece in the first place. Most of your confrontations with people will occur at 21 feet or less. You should be able to hit just about anybody at the range moving or not. If he's moving sideways on you where is the threat? Most guys will be coming straight at you = easier to hit as the target is taking up a larger percentage of your front angle.

I also agree that you should practice with what you plan on using for self defense. However the original discussion was for which one to size to use for self defense and which size to use for plinking. I merely gave an answer that met both requirements but only required on gun.

IIRC, the police only get hits about 15% of the time on average in real world situations.

That's because they are shooting fleeing suspects in the back not guys running at them.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

I often break the 1000 round mark every month.

Thats great for those of us who can afford that much ammo 🙂

But for a new shooter getting a first gun in some excessively large or obscure caliber with $20 per 20rd box ammo... Those are nice to have as toys but when it's your first and only gun you want something you can beat up and shoot often at the range and still put someone down if you are called upon to do so.


hehe, from another gun thread:

Originally posted by: Fingers
I've been trying to stay out of this thread to some degree as I am for gun rights, I will be getting the exact same rifle fairly soon, although it will be used to kill ground hogs as the ammo costs of my .300 WSM is way too high for varmints. I also think that there are some people who have posted in this thread don't seem to be responsible enough although that is hard to tell on a forum.

So yeah obviously ammo cost is in issue when you shoot alot, and the more you shoot the better!

I can imagine some folks here on AT just want a gun they can shoot often and not have to sacrifice their SLI rigs to do so.

... .300 WSM on varmints lol...

I was refering to handgun ammo costs in particular for this thread. Target shooting loads are fairly inexpensive although there is a price difference i'll admit.

About the .300WSM ammo I have it all sighted in to use 150 winchester supreme balistic silver tips for deer hunting. Depending on where you get them they can be up to $2 per shot.

There is this guy who lets me deer hunt on his farm and all he asks is that I shoot whatever I see and come in the spring a couple times for ground hogs. I enjoy shooting them, but at 50 in a day sometimes, I just need to get a target load for them but just too lazy to sight in my scope for one.

.17 HMR or .22 WMR is just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Fingers]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

I often break the 1000 round mark every month.

Thats great for those of us who can afford that much ammo 🙂

But for a new shooter getting a first gun in some excessively large or obscure caliber with $20 per 20rd box ammo... Those are nice to have as toys but when it's your first and only gun you want something you can beat up and shoot often at the range and still put someone down if you are called upon to do so.


hehe, from another gun thread:

Originally posted by: Fingers
I've been trying to stay out of this thread to some degree as I am for gun rights, I will be getting the exact same rifle fairly soon, although it will be used to kill ground hogs as the ammo costs of my .300 WSM is way too high for varmints. I also think that there are some people who have posted in this thread don't seem to be responsible enough although that is hard to tell on a forum.

So yeah obviously ammo cost is in issue when you shoot alot, and the more you shoot the better!

I can imagine some folks here on AT just want a gun they can shoot often and not have to sacrifice their SLI rigs to do so.

... .300 WSM on varmints lol...

I was refering to handgun ammo costs in particular for this thread. Target shooting loads are fairly inexpensive although there is a price difference i'll admit.

About the .300WSM ammo I have it all sighted in to use 150 winchester supreme balistic silver tips for deer hunting. Depending on where you get them they can be up to $2 per shot.

There is this guy who lets me deer hunt on his farm and all he asks is that I shoot whatever I see and come in the spring a couple times for ground hogs. I enjoy shooting them, but at 50 in a day sometimes, I just need to get a target load for them but just too lazy to sight in my scope for one.

.17 HMR or .22 WMR is just what the doctor ordered.

.223 has already been ordered.

This rifle
and the upper reciever off of this one.

 

[bluestrobe]

Originally posted by: Cleaner

Originally posted by: K1052
[

IIRC, the police only get hits about 15% of the time on average in real world situations.

That's because they are shooting fleeing suspects in the back not guys running at them.

That?s an ignorant answer. Most shots made by LE are misses because they are drawing and shooting at someone who had the advantage of surprise. Let me hold a gun at you and watch you try to take your weapon out of your triple retention holster, draw a bead on the target then fire. Shooting at a paper target in a controlled environment and shooting while being shot at are two separate worlds and it?s hard to train for the latter.

People who never have touched a gun and know all about them and information junkies who think that a lot of information can replace real life experiences make me not want to frequent this forum that much.

 

[Cleaner]

Originally posted by: bluestrobe

Originally posted by: Cleaner

Originally posted by: K1052
[

IIRC, the police only get hits about 15% of the time on average in real world situations.

That's because they are shooting fleeing suspects in the back not guys running at them.

That?s an ignorant answer. Most shots made by LE are misses because they are drawing and shooting at someone who had the advantage of surprise. Let me hold a gun at you and watch you try to take your weapon out of your triple retention holster, draw a bead on the target then fire. Shooting at a paper target in a controlled environment and shooting while being shot at are two separate worlds and it?s hard to train for the latter.

People who never have touched a gun and know all about them and information junkies who think that a lot of information can replace real life experiences make me not want to frequent this forum that much.

It was a J O K E. Try D E C A F it might help with those mood swings you're having.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Fingers
Why does every body keep going tot he cost of ammo issue. I thought I wasn't all that well off being a lousy commercial fisherman and going to college at the same time. Some of you guys must be dirt ass poor if that's an issue.

The cost for most handgun ammo is with a couple dollars a box. Not that much money.

Try shooting often (thousands of rounds per month) and buying ammo by the case, then get back to me 🙂

I often break the 1000 round mark every month.

Thats great for those of us who can afford that much ammo 🙂

But for a new shooter getting a first gun in some excessively large or obscure caliber with $20 per 20rd box ammo... Those are nice to have as toys but when it's your first and only gun you want something you can beat up and shoot often at the range and still put someone down if you are called upon to do so.


hehe, from another gun thread:

Originally posted by: Fingers
I've been trying to stay out of this thread to some degree as I am for gun rights, I will be getting the exact same rifle fairly soon, although it will be used to kill ground hogs as the ammo costs of my .300 WSM is way too high for varmints. I also think that there are some people who have posted in this thread don't seem to be responsible enough although that is hard to tell on a forum.

So yeah obviously ammo cost is in issue when you shoot alot, and the more you shoot the better!

I can imagine some folks here on AT just want a gun they can shoot often and not have to sacrifice their SLI rigs to do so.

... .300 WSM on varmints lol...

I was refering to handgun ammo costs in particular for this thread. Target shooting loads are fairly inexpensive although there is a price difference i'll admit.

About the .300WSM ammo I have it all sighted in to use 150 winchester supreme balistic silver tips for deer hunting. Depending on where you get them they can be up to $2 per shot.

There is this guy who lets me deer hunt on his farm and all he asks is that I shoot whatever I see and come in the spring a couple times for ground hogs. I enjoy shooting them, but at 50 in a day sometimes, I just need to get a target load for them but just too lazy to sight in my scope for one.

.17 HMR or .22 WMR is just what the doctor ordered.

.223 has already been ordered.

This rifle
and the upper reciever off of this one.

Nice. I have a 20" BAR-10 myself. I love the general purpose capability of the .308, and surplus ammo can be had cheap by the crate and 20 rd FAL mags are a dime a dozen and everywhere!

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: Cleaner

Originally posted by: bluestrobe

Originally posted by: Cleaner

Originally posted by: K1052
[

IIRC, the police only get hits about 15% of the time on average in real world situations.

That's because they are shooting fleeing suspects in the back not guys running at them.

That?s an ignorant answer. Most shots made by LE are misses because they are drawing and shooting at someone who had the advantage of surprise. Let me hold a gun at you and watch you try to take your weapon out of your triple retention holster, draw a bead on the target then fire. Shooting at a paper target in a controlled environment and shooting while being shot at are two separate worlds and it?s hard to train for the latter.

People who never have touched a gun and know all about them and information junkies who think that a lot of information can replace real life experiences make me not want to frequent this forum that much.

It was a J O K E. Try D E C A F it might help with those mood swings you're having.

It was an asshat joke.

 

[IgoByte]

I'd get one of those automatic Glocks, like the 18c... I doubt the need for anything over 9mm for personal protection - I don't think you'd be shooting at bears. Also, the point isn't to kill a person, it's to stop them...

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: IgoByte
I'd get one of those automatic Glocks, like the 18c... I doubt the need for anything over 9mm for personal protection - I don't think you'd be shooting at bears. Also, the point isn't to kill a person, it's to stop them...

The 18c is a Class 3 firearm per the ATFE.


The point is to incapacitate. In order to do so you aim for vital areas that when hit tend to shut the body down in rapid pace, thus stopping the attacker.

 

[whistleclient]

Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number...and make that a little louder?


These go to eleven.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: IgoByte
I'd get one of those automatic Glocks, like the 18c... I doubt the need for anything over 9mm for personal protection - I don't think you'd be shooting at bears. Also, the point isn't to kill a person, it's to stop them...

If you are shooting at bears with a handgun less powerful than a .44 Magnum you better save the last shot for yourself.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: IgoByte
I'd get one of those automatic Glocks, like the 18c... I doubt the need for anything over 9mm for personal protection - I don't think you'd be shooting at bears. Also, the point isn't to kill a person, it's to stop them...

If you are shooting at bears with a handgun less powerful than a .44 Magnum you better save the last shot for yourself.

I wouldn't even do that unless I was 95% certain the bear was going to eat me.